Where does morality come from?

[ToBoxOrThrowInTowel?]

Holo Can I ask you? Why do you no longer believe in Jesus? I ask because I found you in a thread that had come up to a query I had made on whether or not we would remember those we hurt if we end up in Hell(unrepentant) - In the now closed thread, "Do we need to repent of all of our sins?" I am struggling with my faith and got the most from your posts. Ugh. You can't help me. I have been searching a long time for answers and I think I am at the point of realizing I am not one of "The Elect" going to Heaven.(One of the truly saved) This is devastating because I have nothing but Jesus right now and I just do not see myself readapting as an Atheist or Agnostic. I am truly in a precarious place to say the least. I actually joined this forum just to ask you why you are no longer a Christian as your profile now states... because I got the most from YOUR posts when you WERE still a Christian. You seemed to really have that relationship with God through Jesus down. I hope you do not mind my asking you this here in this thread.

***On Topic. I personally have never seen adults more compassionate. I have seen children more compassionate. I have seen adults - even my very own parents as cold, hateful, able to remove themselves completely from compassion when seeing someone in desperate need. In fact, I have seen adults walk all over and KICK those in need and at their very worst.

I see life as utterly Dark and horrible right now. I will go so far as to share that I have suffered trauma repetitively since birth and I am nearing half a century. I am completely sober. I do not self medicate for this suffering and... I am at the point of giving up the battle and throwing in the towel.

 

[Kylie]

are you saying that numbers are learned in math class? Numbers are a math subject. You don't learn numbers for example in history class, or in english class. It is a math subject. And surely you know this. My wife is a teacher, and I asked her, and she was laughing at it. Logic itself dictates that if one were to learn numbers it would be more appropriate to put it in a math section of a class, rather than an english section.

Learning numbers is a precursor to learning maths, not quite the same thing as maths itself.

Maths requires an understanding of numbers that has to come before any maths can be done.

 

[createdtoworship]

Faith is a belief that is not based on reason or logic. If we go back to my previous analogy, to believe a chicken will lay 2-3 eggs per day is perfectly reasonable and logical so it would not take the leap of faith to believe it.

But do you know for sure how many eggs a chicken will lay? You hope it will lay 3 but it could lay 2. Hope is a critical aspect of faith.

 

[Ken-1122]

But do you know for sure how many eggs a chicken will lay? You hope it will lay 3 but it could lay 2. Hope is a critical aspect of faith.

2 eggs 3 eggs doesn’t matter

 

[createdtoworship]

2 eggs 3 eggs doesn’t matter

My point stands. It is possible no eggs will be laid at all. You hope you have a return on your investment but don't count your chickens before their hatched the saying goes. That is exactly what faith is faith is hope that thongs will turn out right and faith is trust that things as they have been will also be in the future.

 

[Ken-1122]

My point stands. It is possible no eggs will be laid at all. You hope you have a return on your investment but don't count your chickens before their hatched the saying goes. That is exactly what faith is faith is hope that thongs will turn out right and faith is trust that things as they have been will also be in the future.

But we already have a word for that, it's called trust. If you use faith and trust interchangeably, the word becomes meaningless. Your Bible describe faith as "study of things hoped for, evidence of things UNSEEN. Unseen means to lack evidence. Faith is employed when there is not a reasonable expectation the event will happen, when there is a reasonable expectation it is called trust. There is a reasonable expectation the chicken will lay 2-3 eggs per day.

 

[createdtoworship]

But we already have a word for that, it's called trust. If you use faith and trust interchangeably, the word becomes meaningless. Your Bible describe faith as "study of things hoped for, evidence of things UNSEEN. Unseen means to lack evidence. Faith is employed when there is not a reasonable expectation the event will happen, when there is a reasonable expectation it is called trust. There is a reasonable expectation the chicken will lay 2-3 eggs per day.

 

[Ken-1122]

View attachment 259173

Like I said; it all depends on how the word is used. If it is used to mean trust, then the word faith becomes meaningless IMO

 

[holo]

Holo Can I ask you? Why do you no longer believe in Jesus? I ask because I found you in a thread that had come up to a query I had made on whether or not we would remember those we hurt if we end up in Hell(unrepentant) - In the now closed thread, "Do we need to repent of all of our sins?" I am struggling with my faith and got the most from your posts. Ugh. You can't help me. I have been searching a long time for answers and I think I am at the point of realizing I am not one of "The Elect" going to Heaven.(One of the truly saved) This is devastating because I have nothing but Jesus right now and I just do not see myself readapting as an Atheist or Agnostic. I am truly in a precarious place to say the least. I actually joined this forum just to ask you why you are no longer a Christian as your profile now states... because I got the most from YOUR posts when you WERE still a Christian. You seemed to really have that relationship with God through Jesus down. I hope you do not mind my asking you this here in this thread.

Hi. This is kind of moving to read. I remember from way back seeing others having lost faith here and I couldn't for the life of me understand how it could even be possible. It wasn't rare to have some sort of conflict with God and/or the bible, but losing faith in God entirely didn't seem like an option. I can tell you a little about how it happened, but I also want to tell you my theology, i.e. what I believe the gospel is, i.e. what I believe the first believers actually tried to say. I think it's fundamentally different than what most Christians believe. The gospel is the most fantastic and revolutionary idea I have ever heard. Most Christians will say salvation is by grace alone, but hardly any of them actually mean it. There's always a catch: yes, it's all by grace, but you must also make a decision. It's all by grace, but you must also feel a certain amount of remorse. All by grace, but you must also hear the (right version of the) gospel. All by grace, but you must also make a certain effort not to sin. And so on and so on. I believe the gospel is that salvation is God's work and God's work alone. That there's literally nothing you can do to deserve it, receive it or keep it. I have a hard time believing that we were all lost to God, and then he sent Jesus etc, and then the few of us who got to hear the gospel + do the required works, get to go to heaven when we die. There's no way I can reconcile that with the idea of God being, well, God. In other words, if God wants you to be saved, then you will be saved. He doesn't leave it up to you and your limited understanding and ability. It's not where you were born or who you meet that ultimately decides where you end up. I think Paul and his friends were preaching the good news, that people are saved, and that they are free to act like it. Like the prodigal son: the problem wasn't that he wasn't still his father's son, it was that he believed he was someone else.

So that gave me a lot of comfort during the years I gradually lost faith against my will. It would be too absurd if my salvation depended on my ability to believe. Even now I believe that if there is a God and he wants to save me, he will.

To be continued.

 

[holo]

Holo Can I ask you? Why do you no longer believe in Jesus? I ask because I found you in a thread that had come up to a query I had made on whether or not we would remember those we hurt if we end up in Hell(unrepentant) - In the now closed thread, "Do we need to repent of all of our sins?" I am struggling with my faith and got the most from your posts. Ugh. You can't help me. I have been searching a long time for answers and I think I am at the point of realizing I am not one of "The Elect" going to Heaven.(One of the truly saved) This is devastating because I have nothing but Jesus right now and I just do not see myself readapting as an Atheist or Agnostic. I am truly in a precarious place to say the least. I actually joined this forum just to ask you why you are no longer a Christian as your profile now states... because I got the most from YOUR posts when you WERE still a Christian. You seemed to really have that relationship with God through Jesus down. I hope you do not mind my asking you this here in this thread.

One of the hardest things about losing faith was that I felt I no longer had anything to offer people. The ultimate hope was gone. I was never much of an evangelist, but I did get to walk with people a few steps out of legalism and into liberty from time to time. I really wanted, and tried, to keep believing. I couldn't even imagine how I could ever have any sort of real peace and hope and meaning without faith in God. Looking back, it now appears to me that I didn't have those things because God was actually there, but in spite of him not being there.

Anyway, I lost faith gradually. God felt far away and I remember reading something about the common origins of religions, including Christianity. I saw some very convincing arguments, and it scared me to death, so I just closed the browser and decided to ignore it. But then I figured I couldn't live on a lie. I needed to know whether or not this is true. I don't remember what site it was and I don't know if its claims hold water, but the important thing is I decided to question my own faith. In the back of my mind I already knew how we as believers would often "help" God manifest himself, like when something good happened and we more or less chose to believe it must be because we prayed. Anything good was from God, anything unexpected was a miracle, any tingling in the spine during prayer or worship must be the Spirit etc.

One of the things I did to find out if it was all true, was that I stopped praying. Many many times things had turned out all right after I prayed, so if I stopped I would surely notice a difference, I thought. But I didn't. I didn't see any change in what happened in my life or around me. So I concluded two things: prayer doesn't make a difference (not in my life anyway), and all those times my prayers were answered, were just an illusion.

Now you could say that God helped me out (and still does) even if I don't pray, but the point still stands: it wasn't my prayers that made the difference. And yet I thought I saw God moving so clearly. So I decided to put other phenomena to the test and look at them critically. What about all those times I got goosebumps during worship? Well, when I decided to be completely honest with myself, I did also get those when I listened to Mozart and Jimi Hendrix. And I couldn't really tell a difference.

I also looked around me at all the other religions people follow. I saw muslims thanking Allah for providing them with a job, I saw people giving their crystals credit for protecting them from harmful "vibrations" and so on and so on, and everybody seemed just as convinced as I was. They all got their worldviews confirmed daily. So I had to ask, are all those other things from the devil and Christianity the only true way? Or is all this just people being people, with their backgrounds and cognitive biases and hopes and cultural pressure? So I ended up losing faith. I was an agnostic for several years, and lately I'm pretty sure there's no God, but at the same time, as I'm losing my preconceptions of what God is, I guess there might be... something out there. But I really have no idea what that something is, or if it would be right to think of it as a sort of person or consciousness or whatever. Maybe I'm just amazed at anything existing at all, and the fact that I, of all possible people, get to be right here right now. No matter how you look at it, it's pretty mindblowing that we exist at all.

To be continued, I'm on a roll :/

 

[holo]

**On Topic. I personally have never seen adults more compassionate. I have seen children more compassionate. I have seen adults - even my very own parents as cold, hateful, able to remove themselves completely from compassion when seeing someone in desperate need. In fact, I have seen adults walk all over and KICK those in need and at their very worst.

I see life as utterly Dark and horrible right now. I will go so far as to share that I have suffered trauma repetitively since birth and I am nearing half a century. I am completely sober. I do not self medicate for this suffering and... I am at the point of giving up the battle and throwing in the towel.

I can testify(!) that it's very possible to find hope and meaning in life even without believing in God. People find those things in many places. What has worked wonders for me is meditation and other practices and teachings from Buddhism. Nothing religious or supernatural, just things I can actually do to find peace and equanimity and comfort. I'm probably not allowed to "advertise" for other religions (though I'm strictly talking about secular Buddhism) here, but I have to say that meditation, more than anything, has transformed my life. It's amazing how your perspective can shift when you sit down and don't do anything but sitting there with yourself without judging any thought or feeling that arises. It blows my mind how much better things go those times I simply remember to breathe consciously for a few seconds before making a decision or speaking my mind. I've found that it's possible to find perfect, abundant peace within yourself. And looking back, now it's really a relief that I don't have to believe any longer. I no longer hold the one true key without which everybody else will be lost forever, there's nothing I have to take on faith to be saved or lead a good life, no making sure I have the correct interpretation of a translation of a version of some scripture etc etc. I could say a lot about what works for me, but again I'm not sure it's allowed.

If you find peace in faith, I'm all for it and happy for you. If you find it somewhere else, I'm just as happy for you. It breaks my heart to hear how you feel, because I really can relate, to trauma and self-medication and doubt and fear. But there is freedom and hope and meaning and peace. There is everything you will ever need, and you can find it.

/end
(sorry for the text walls)

 

[createdtoworship]

Like I said; it all depends on how the word is used. If it is used to mean trust, then the word faith becomes meaningless IMO

according to the definition it's not just trust but a slight tweeking to trust its "complete trust or confidence" .

 

[Ken-1122]

according to the definition it's not just trust but a slight tweeking to trust its "complete trust or confidence" .

Complete trust is still trust; same thing. I’ve always considered faith as trust or confidence that is not based on logic or reason. An example would be; yesterday I filled my car with gas before driving home. It shouldn’t require an act of faith to assume I still have gas in my car since I haven’t driven the car long enough to empty the tank. Yeah there is a slight chance a thief could have syphoned fuel from my tank and emptied it, or the tank could have sprung a leak overnight and all the fuel leaked out, but I consider those possibilities to be unlikely. So even though I trust there is still fuel in my car, I wouldn’t say I have faith there is fuel in my car because the expectation is reasonable that it should be there.

Now to assume I can make a 700 mile trip on a single tank of gas, that would be unreasonable when I consider my car only holds 10 gallons of fuel and the car never gets more than 40 mpg, thus the math tells me the most I could expect from one tank is 400 miles. For me to believe I could accomplish a 700 mile trip without any money for additional fuel would require faith; to act on such a trip would require an act of faith. Even your Bible defines faith this way; study of things hoped for evidence of things unseen. Attempting a 700 mile trip on one tank of gas for my car would be unseen.

 

[createdtoworship]

Complete trust is still trust; same thing. I’ve always considered faith as trust or confidence that is not based on logic or reason. An example would be; yesterday I filled my car with gas before driving home. It shouldn’t require an act of faith to assume I still have gas in my car since I haven’t driven the car long enough to empty the tank. Yeah there is a slight chance a thief could have syphoned fuel from my tank and emptied it, or the tank could have sprung a leak overnight and all the fuel leaked out, but I consider those possibilities to be unlikely. So even though I trust there is still fuel in my car, I wouldn’t say I have faith there is fuel in my car because the expectation is reasonable that it should be there.

Now to assume I can make a 700 mile trip on a single tank of gas, that would be unreasonable when I consider my car only holds 10 gallons of fuel and the car never gets more than 40 mpg, thus the math tells me the most I could expect from one tank is 400 miles. For me to believe I could accomplish a 700 mile trip without any money for additional fuel would require faith; to act on such a trip would require an act of faith. Even your Bible defines faith this way; study of things hoped for evidence of things unseen. Attempting a 700 mile trip on one tank of gas for my car would be unseen.

A slight adjustment to a word is enough to warrant an entirely new word. I am sorry but I quoted official sources for the definition. Because it is an unprofessional opinion that the duplicate word is useless, does not make it useless. Quote mining is a term by evolutionists, but it is the same a quoting out of context or misquoting. It is also a duplicate. But my unprofessional opinion that it should not be there is just an oppinion. It's not validated by those who make decisions like this.

 

[createdtoworship]

Hi. This is kind of moving to read. I remember from way back seeing others having lost faith here and I couldn't for the life of me understand how it could even be possible. It wasn't rare to have some sort of conflict with God and/or the bible, but losing faith in God entirely didn't seem like an option. I can tell you a little about how it happened, but I also want to tell you my theology, i.e. what I believe the gospel is, i.e. what I believe the first believers actually tried to say. I think it's fundamentally different than what most Christians believe. The gospel is the most fantastic and revolutionary idea I have ever heard. Most Christians will say salvation is by grace alone, but hardly any of them actually mean it. There's always a catch: yes, it's all by grace, but you must also make a decision. It's all by grace, but you must also feel a certain amount of remorse. All by grace, but you must also hear the (right version of the) gospel. All by grace, but you must also make a certain effort not to sin. And so on and so on. I believe the gospel is that salvation is God's work and God's work alone. That there's literally nothing you can do to deserve it, receive it or keep it. I have a hard time believing that we were all lost to God, and then he sent Jesus etc, and then the few of us who got to hear the gospel + do the required works, get to go to heaven when we die. There's no way I can reconcile that with the idea of God being, well, God. In other words, if God wants you to be saved, then you will be saved. He doesn't leave it up to you and your limited understanding and ability. It's not where you were born or who you meet that ultimately decides where you end up. I think Paul and his friends were preaching the good news, that people are saved, and that they are free to act like it. Like the prodigal son: the problem wasn't that he wasn't still his father's son, it was that he believed he was someone else.

So that gave me a lot of comfort during the years I gradually lost faith against my will. It would be too absurd if my salvation depended on my ability to believe. Even now I believe that if there is a God and he wants to save me, he will.

To be continued.

Sir just because we are saved by grace does not meat that repentance is not required at salvation. We must repent of idolatry and turn to God. But thank you for reaching out. What these guys need is the repentance part. In fact I would venture to say that repentance was the part they hated about christianity and the part that caused the apostacy. I used to think that if I removed repentance from the gospel that it would make more converts but it actualpy makes false converts.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

If you find peace in faith, I'm all for it and happy for you. If you find it somewhere else, I'm just as happy for you. It breaks my heart to hear how you feel, because I really can relate, to trauma and self-medication and doubt and fear. But there is freedom and hope and meaning and peace. There is everything you will ever need, and you can find it.

As someone who deconverted years and years ago, I can say that the doubts and fears fade into nothingness.

 

[Ken-1122]

A slight adjustment to a word is enough to warrant an entirely new word. I am sorry but I quoted official sources for the definition. Because it is an unprofessional opinion that the duplicate word is useless, does not make it useless. Quote mining is a term by evolutionists, but it is the same a quoting out of context or misquoting. It is also a duplicate. But my unprofessional opinion that it should not be there is just an oppinion. It's not validated by those who make decisions like this.

If faith simply means to trust or believe, then when you said “it’s okay to take things at face value; but not without faith” would be the same as saying that it is okay to take things at face value but not with out believing. You see it doesn’t make sense when phrased that way because most people think of faith as more than just believing, or having trust; faith usually is seen as being more than that. That is why I said you are cheapening the word using it as you do.

 

[createdtoworship]

As someone who deconverted years and years ago, I can say that the doubts and fears fade into nothingness.

it's called in the Bible a "seared conscious" and is not a good thing. For example when you lose the ability to feel emotions you lose the protective ability emotions provide. For example fearing crashing at a red light, will cause you to honor the traffic lighting systems in the US for example. But I can attest that some day, those fears and worries, will come back. But it will be too late.

again I attest to pascals wager.

if you don't believe in God and sin, and God sends you to hell for eternity due to not having forgiveness of sins.

then that is one option.

if God does not exist, then we die and nothing happens, that is another option

however

we are not saved by works, so an athiest doing good deeds is not good enough

so basically you have a higher chance of success statistically speaking,

becoming a christian, than not being a christian.

don't you want to succeed?

 

[cvanwey]

it's called in the Bible a "seared conscious" and is not a good thing. For example when you lose the ability to feel emotions you lose the protective ability emotions provide. For example fearing crashing at a red light, will cause you to honor the traffic lighting systems in the US for example. But I can attest that some day, those fears and worries, will come back. But it will be too late.

again I attest to pascals wager.

if you don't believe in God and sin, and God sends you to hell for eternity due to not having forgiveness of sins.

then that is one option.

if God does not exist, then we die and nothing happens, that is another option

however

we are not saved by works, so an athiest doing good deeds is not good enough

so basically you have a higher chance of success statistically speaking,

becoming a christian, than not being a christian.

don't you want to succeed?

I watched your video. Let's explore:

1. Since 'works' will not save you, then why care about 'morals' at all? Instead just believe/repent/prosthelytize, knowing full well you are still going to continue 'sinning' while on earth. Believing in Christ does not then negate any future earthly 'sin' apparently. You will remain a 'flawed human' being... However, a mere belief in something or someone is neither moral nor immoral; it is instead an amoral action/conclusion. Thus, the only conclusion, is to invoke an uncontrollable and amoral action --> (belief). Thus begging the same question... 'Why care about 'morals' at all?

2. If God does exist, how do we know, as humans, that God is the ultimate 'good'? Because remember, if we both agree human reasoning is flawed in nature, how are humans able to determine that God IS the moral standard of 'good'? Because He says so?

3. Your video mentions the 10 Commandments. Apparently, these are the '10 most important moral pronouncements.' But again, going back to point number one... Does a believer's lies count for any less than a non-believer's lies? They both still lie, cheat, steal, kill, etc... So again, 'morals' appear irrelevant. The Bible would then seem to be nothing more than a 'moral barometer', 'moral detector', or 'moral monitor.' Meaning, "I/God have identified that you have 'sinned', but it is irrelevant."

Hence, it would appear that morals not only remain subjective until this asserted agent's existence is merely proven otherwise, which the video never attempts to demonstrate; but 'morals' appear irrelevant as well.

Great job 'video'

 

[cvanwey]

View attachment 259173

Since you appear to adhere to dictionary defintions, let's explore:

Dictionary

free will
/ˌfrē ˈwil/
noun
noun: free will; noun: freewill
1.
the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

*******************

My post, directly above, demonstrates how 'morals' appear irrelevant, and instead, Heaven's acceptance eludes to heaven hinging upon belief alone.

If one wishes to adhere to dictionary defintions, then 'free will' is the ability to choose, while not under duress, coercion, and/or upon an ultimatum.

'Believe in me or burn forever' seems to fall under the realm of the above definition perfectly.

In conclusion, if belief is the qualifier for heaven, one needs to ask themselves... Why do they 'believe?' You spelled this out yourself, in a prior post, about Pascal's Wager. If the reason is due to duress, is God violating this human's free will? I think so, since it is the Bible itself, which indicates this punishment for non-belief.

Thanks