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Where does morality come from?

Discussion in 'Ethics & Morality' started by Searching_for_God, Apr 28, 2019.

  1. gaara4158

    gaara4158 I prefer you trust your reason.

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    Just by saying that, you show that you don't understand what you just agreed with.
     
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  2. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    Sir your entire argument revolves around ring species and micro evolution among species, which no one denies. But those are nit different animals. can you provide the same evidence at the genus level? And this is where evolution fails.
     
  3. gaara4158

    gaara4158 I prefer you trust your reason.

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    No, it doesn’t, that’s just some random word association you’ve spurted out. The burden of proof is on you to prove it can’t happen, not on scientists to prove it did, since your whole argument in this thread is that “macro” evolution can’t happen and therefore evolutionary explanations for morality don’t work. Your thesis contains a premise that goes against the scientific consensus, and that alone is evidence that your thesis is wrong, as we established in other threads.
     
  4. Moral Orel

    Moral Orel Proud Citizen of Moralton Supporter

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    Don't you get it? His claim is negative, so it's logically fallacious of you to demand he supports his claim. It's your burden to prove his claim wrong, other wise you're shifting the burden of proof, derp!

    That was sarcasm folks. I mean, that's exactly what the argument presented is, but it's so, so wrong.
     
  5. variant

    variant Happy Cat

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    Thankfully speciation is better understood than you understand it.

    We don't propose that species mate outside their species (that's literally how we define the term for the most part). Instead the process happens as populations diverge, where one species separates and becomes two, losing at some point the ability to mate and produce viable offspring.

    Common ancestry doesn't require that monkeys and man mate with each other, but rather that some of their ancestors (neither monkeys or man) did.
     
  6. variant

    variant Happy Cat

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    If you want to demonstrate that morality comes from God to an atheist, first demonstrate that there is a God and then demonstrate that it is where morality comes from.

    Since God doesn't obviously exist, I would consider your task problematic and your certainty somewhat odd.
     
  7. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    ok, I never said it can't happen. so yes, the burden still lies on you to prove it did happen, you basically say it can happen and you have good reason to believe it did happen, as well as the majority of science on your side. But evidence alludes you for some reason. Call me skeptical.
     
  8. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    yes I have heard this before but no one was able to prove that animals lose the ability to mate with previous generations, simply because those animals are extinct by this point, so it remains unverified.
     
  9. Kylie

    Kylie Atheist and Proud

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    Ring species are a pretty good example. Ring species are separated in space the same way a line of generations is separated in time.
     
  10. variant

    variant Happy Cat

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    We have current examples of animals going through the process, the genetic record, and the fossil record.

    Then we can track genetic and morphological similarity and even see where viral insertions were made along the various genomes to verify.
     
  11. gaara4158

    gaara4158 I prefer you trust your reason.

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    No, you did indeed say it can’t happen when you suggested that there is some kind of barrier preventing changes over generations to cross over the genus level. Even if that we’re true, moral instincts themselves in humans don’t have to have been inherited from generations that far back. So that objection is invalid.

    Your whole argument about human love being unique in the animal kingdom and therefore from God is a non-sequitur, and your objection to being told that is deflection by asking how we think it could have happened, and when we give evolutionary explanations you launch into your arguments against evolution.
     
  12. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    so you have proof that a ring species cannot mate with another ring species?

    That was what I was saying has no evidence.
     
  13. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    so like I said, please provide proof of this. I understand everyone and their brother has a theory, I don't want that. I want the facts.
     
  14. variant

    variant Happy Cat

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    What I mentioned are the facts.

    If you want a good introduction to the science of evolutionary biology I recommend:
    https://www.amazon.com/Evolutionary-Analysis-5th-Jon-Herron/dp/0321616677

    My edition came complete with answers to creationist complaints in evolutionary models and explanation of the evidence for biological evolution and a through exploration of the literature.

    You can read about endogenous retroviruses and how they provide evidence for common decent here:
    Evidence for the Evolutionary Model
     
  15. Kylie

    Kylie Atheist and Proud

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    Since you are under the impression that ring species is singular when it is actually plural, it's is obvious that you have no idea what you are talking about, so your claim that there is no evidence is just something you made up. Because if you actually knew one way or the other, you'd have to understand what a ring species is first, and you obviously don't.

    Have a look at this.

    [​IMG]

    Species 1 can breed with species 2.

    Species 2 can breed with both species 1 and species 3.

    Species 3 can breed with both species 2 and species 4.

    And so on, around the ring.

    Each species is a little more different that the one before it. The differences between two consecutive species are so slight that it's not a barrier to successful interbreeding. But by the time we get all the way around to species 7, it is so different that it can't interbreed with species 1 anymore, even though each species can interbreed with the next species in line.
     
  16. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    it was refuted here:

    https://evolutionnews.org/2016/06/t...//www.evolutionarymodel.com/evolutionnews.htm

    there are several more articles if that one is not enough.

    (no thanks on the book)

    But I will write a review of it, a negative review because macro evolution is unobserved.
     
  17. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    maam, I have never contended with ring species. Ring species can all interbreed and thus are the same type of animal (in the same genus).
     
  18. Newtheran

    Newtheran Well-Known Member

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    Carry around a revolver filled with blanks and a pair of clean underwear.

    Point the revolver at the atheist and tell him to give you a good reason why you shouldn't kill him.

    Tell him that the absolute command "Thou Shalt Not Kill" comes from God and since God doesn't exist, there's no transcendent reason why you should obey it.

    Pull the trigger six times.

    Give him the clean pair of underwear and tell him to reconsider his life choices.

    In all seriousness, atheists worship a god of their own creation - their own ability and reason. Until that idol is crushed, they will not have ears to hear. Jesus said not to cast pearls before swine.
     
  19. gaara4158

    gaara4158 I prefer you trust your reason.

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    Ah, I see we have a psychopath in our presence.
     
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  20. variant

    variant Happy Cat

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    That link doesn't work but if it did it wouldn't be linking to a scientific organization.

    Research and research citing websites only thanks.

    You're going to write a review of a book you've never read?

    Do you expect to be taken seriously here or elsewhere if you're going to parade around your ignorance for all to see?
     
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