Where does morality come from?

[VirOptimus]

Are subjective moral values universal?

Again, I reject both objective and subjective as meaningful enteties, try to keep up.

 

[stevevw]

No, they are not "taking an objective stand." You are just accusing them of it for rhetorical purposes.

So when a person who takes a subjective position states that another person's own moral views are wrong and that their moral position is the correct one regardless of the other person's subjective views are they not imposing their moral position onto another without any reference point to do so. Arent they saying my moral position is the only correct one for me and you and anyone else who disagrees with me. Isn't that a universal position on morality.

 

[stevevw]

Again, I reject both objective and subjective as meaningful entities, try to keep up.

So if empathy is a feeling that cannot be relied upon to be independent of bias and other influences that can sway peoples judgements what can you use to determine how to act properly.

 

[Ken-1122]

Okay, so the feelings are stronger the more you know a person, but the same general description of caring that you provided fits, right?

Just to be clear, when you said "nothing" you were just exaggerating and in reality you always feel at least a tiny bit in the way that you have described "caring"? Is that correct?

Yes.

It is not. You said that you "believe for no reason". See the word "because" in my sentence? What comes after that is the reason you believe. That's how the word "because" works. The fact that your car has started in the past is the reason that you believe it will start again.

I didn’t say that I believe for no reason, I said I have no direct evidence my car will start but I have reason to assume it will start due to the fact that it was running fine when I parked it in the garage. My point was that I don’t need direct evidence or proof for everything I do in life

You said my explanation was lacking. What is it lacking? If you don't know what else I need to make ice cream a moral issue, then how can you even think you've defined "moral issue" well enough for yourself to use the phrase?

It was lacking an explanation I find convincing

 

[VirOptimus]

So if empathy is a feeling that cannot be relied upon to be independent of bias and other influences that can sway peoples judgements what can you use to determine how to act properly.

I have already told you, by using arguments.


Just as you yourself decide you moral stadpoints.

 

[Ken-1122]

Not really. Anyone can make a claim that morality is relative. But then when they are wronged react like morality is objective. It is the reaction that shows what people really believe

I didn't say relative, I said subjective. Do you know the difference? And I didn’t say making the claim that morality is subjective, I said believing morality is subjective. To believe morality is subjective results in the same behavior as to believe morality is objective.

No your getting them mixed up. If you believe (X) were subjective then you would not believe it should apply to all.

That is not true. Unless you believe (X) is true for all, you don’t believe (X) is true. What you are describing is believing (X) is only true for you. What you are describing is moral relativism; not subjectivism.

 

[stevevw]

I have already told you, by using arguments.

But what is a reference you use to measure things. Just like 2 people could be arguing about the length of a line we may have a ruler to objectively determine the length that is independent of the people arguing what independent measure do you use to determine what is right, best.

Just as you yourself decide you moral standpoints.

I don't decide my moral standpoint though. It is independent of me.

 

[Speedwell]

And on what basis do they measure that this reasoning and tradition is truly correct or just some personal view based on feelings or faulty reasoning and tradition.

And on what basis is that consensus determined to be right. It cannot be a group agreement. I thought people against objective morality were saying that just because many people agree on something doesn't make it right. Besides isn't that a fallacy of popularity. I can cite many examples of how consensus has shown to be wrong. How organizations, politicians, even world bodies that are supposed to look out for our interests have done the wrong thing by people.

Individuals, groups, are subject to groupthink, biases, ulterior motives, corruption, money, and power. In fact, it is when morality is subjective that it is vulnerable to be dictated by small groups who can wield the most power to get into a position to dictate what is right and wrong for the rest. And if people think that these are laid upon us by consensus then they ought to think again.

You were not talking about right and wrong iin that example, but about legal and illegal.

 

[Speedwell]

Are subjective moral values universal?

Some are.

 

[VirOptimus]

But what is a reference you use to measure things. Just like 2 people could be arguing about the length of a line we may have a ruler to objectively determine the length that is independent of the people arguing what independent measure do you use to determine what is right, best.

I don't decide my moral standpoint though. It is independent of me.

I dont need any ”measurments”.

You can tell yourself that, doesnt make it true.

 

[stevevw]

I didn't say relative, I said subjective. Do you know the difference? And I didn’t say making the claim that morality is subjective, I said believing morality is subjective. To believe morality is subjective results in the same behavior as to believe morality is objective.

That would be true. But its when you believe morality is subjective and that others should also believe and follow your morals that you are then being objective (saying that your moral belief is universal).

That is not true. Unless you believe (X) is true for all, you don’t believe (X) is true. What you are describing is believing (X) is only true for you. What you are describing is moral relativism; not subjectivism.

No, if you believe (X) is true only for you then that is subjective. Remember we went through this before. Subjective only applies to you, your preferences, your views, your beliefs only. Relative is how morality is relative to a situation, a time, or a culture. People thought it was OK to have slaves in the 1800s but now we don't. It was relative to time.

But two different people in a relative time or culture can still have different subjective (personal views) on the matter. Back when it was relatively OK to have slaves in the 1800s two people could have differed in their subjective (personal view) that slavery was morally good.

 

[stevevw]

I dont need any ”measurments”.

You can tell yourself that, doesnt make it true.

Then how does the other person know that you are not just making things up? You may have a bias against certain things that skew your judgment. How do you even know as most of the time people are not even aware of their biases (unconscious bias).

 

[stevevw]

Some are.

Like what

 

[VirOptimus]

Then how does the other person know that you are just making things up? You may have a bias against certain things that skew your judgment. How do you even know as most of the time people are not even aware of their biases (unconscious bias).

Making things up? Uh, word salad again. I dont understand your muddeld post.

 

[Moral Orel]

Yes.

Okay, then let's hop in the Way-Back-Machine to make sure I get this right. Here's what you said about caring:

I feel good when they feel happy, and bad when they feel bad.

And after further discussion you've said that "yes" this describes every person, but with the stipulation that those feelings are stronger for people you are close to and very weak for people you don't know at all. Your position changed from "nothing" to "at least a tiny bit" over the course of the past few posts so I want to make sure I've got it all straight now.

I didn’t say that I believe for no reason

Fair enough, but...

I said I have no direct evidence my car will start but I have reason to assume it will start due to the fact that it was running fine when I parked it in the garage.

The fact that you have demonstrated in the recent past that your car does start is evidence. Do you have any evidence that "nobody makes ice cream a moral issue"? Here's a start: how many people have you asked?

My point was that I don’t need direct evidence or proof for everything I do in life

If you don't require evidence for what you believe, then you can just believe anything, can't you? Proof is always better, but I'll settle for a little bit of evidence. Do you have any?

It was lacking an explanation I find convincing

I gave you the same explanation for ice cream that you gave me for murder. What more do I need?

 

[Speedwell]

I don't decide my moral standpoint though. It is independent of me.

It can be relatively independent of your rational, conscious thought. You may well "know" that certain things are wrong, without having reasoned it out for yourself. But that does not necessarily mean it is objective

 

[stevevw]

Making things up? Uh, word salad again. I dont understand your muddeld post.

That's because your not following the debate.

Steve asked, "if empathy is a poor tool to use for determining how to act properly what do you use".
VirOptimus said, "I use arguing with the other person".
Steve said, "how do you tell that what you argue that is proper behavior is correct without any independent measure" and used the example the ruler to determine the length of a line.
VirOptimus said I don't need any ”measurements”.
Steve said, "Then how does the other person know that you are not just making things up if you don't have an independent measure to show them. Do they just believe your word?

 

[VirOptimus]

That's because your not following the debate.

Steve asked, "if empathy is a poor tool to use for determining how to act properly what do you use".
VirOptimus said, "I use arguing with the other person".
Steve said "how do you tell is what you argue that is proper behavior is correct without any measure" and used the example the ruler to determine the length of a line.
VirOptimus said I don't need any ”measurements”.
Steve said, "Then how does the other person know that you are not just making things up if you don't have an independent measure to show them. Do they just believe your word?

”not” was not in the post i quoted.

and no, I wouldnt and neither would it matter.

 

[Ken-1122]

That would be true. But its when you believe morality is subjective and that others should also believe and follow your morals that you are then being objective (saying that your moral belief is universal).

There is a difference between believing your moral beliefs are universal vs believing that they should be universal.

No, if you believe (X) is true only for you then that is subjective. Remember we went through this before. Subjective only applies to you, your preferences, your views, your beliefs only. Relative is how morality is relative to a situation, a time, or a culture.

Relative
The belief that your moral views are only for you, and others have their own that is only for them; and one view is no better than the other.

Subjective
The belief that your moral views should be for everybody, but you realize other people have their moral views that are different than yours, but you think their moral views are wrong.

Objective
The belief that your moral view applies to everybody.
The problem with objective is a quick look at the real world you will see your moral views are not applied to everybody.

 

[Moral Orel]

Relative
The belief that your moral views are only for you, and others have their own that is only for them; and one view is no better than the other.

Subjective
The belief that your moral views should be for everybody, but you realize other people have their moral views that are different than yours, but you think their moral views are wrong.

Objective
The belief that your moral view applies to everybody.
The problem with objective is a quick look at the real world you will see your moral views are not applied to everybody.

Can you please cite a source for this? I've been dying to find out where you get your definitions from.