Where does Jesus Christ fit in?

[babylonisfalling]

In previous articles we've talked about spiritual exercises to improve our afterlife. We've discussed the condemnation of hell and the redemption of heaven but not the redeemer himself, other than to quote him a few times. Where does Jesus Christ fit into any of this?

Moral exercises and working to disconnect ourselves from the material world are positive things which we should definitely practice. They can improve our standing in the afterlife of heaven but can spiritual exercises or good works actually get us to a heavenly state of existence?

Christians believe morality and good behavior, no matter how well practiced by human standards is still not good enough for God's divine standard. We can be good when compared to other humans but never when compared to God. The moral distance between God and us, between Spirit and flesh is just too great for flesh to make the jump.

Please check out the rest of the article here

 

[GoldenBoy89]

In previous articles we've talked about spiritual exercises to improve our afterlife. We've discussed the condemnation of hell and the redemption of heaven but not the redeemer himself, other than to quote him a few times. Where does Jesus Christ fit into any of this?

Moral exercises and working to disconnect ourselves from the material world are positive things which we should definitely practice. They can improve our standing in the afterlife of heaven but can spiritual exercises or good works actually get us to a heavenly state of existence?

Christians believe morality and good behavior, no matter how well practiced by human standards is still not good enough for God's divine standard. We can be good when compared to other humans but never when compared to God. The moral distance between God and us, between Spirit and flesh is just too great for flesh to make the jump.

Please check out the rest of the article here

You say we can be good when compared to other people but not when compared to God. Why would God hold us to an impossible standard that he knows we'd never achieve?

 

[mickey30981]

"In previous articles we've talked about spiritual exercises to improve our afterlife. We've discussed the condemnation of hell and the redemption of heaven"

From a Christian perspective, there are no spiritual exercises without Christ! Our spiritual life is all centered on drawing us closer to the heart of Christ. Its like "nurturing" a marriage. We dont improve our marriage without growing more intimate with our spouse. Reading books about marriage, getting counseling, working on communication skills, spending time with our spouse is all focused on getting closer to our spouse and dying to self to meet the needs of our marriage and family. Same thing with Christ! Christ is at the very center. He is the ultimate target in everything spiritual. What exactly that looks like in practice would be different from one faith tradition to the next. For example, in Catholicism, the Rosary is an intercessory prayer to the Virgin Mary asking her to pray that we may draw into the essential mysteries of His life. As we pray the Rosary, we meditate on these key events in Christs life to enter into His life , draw closer to him.

Only through our faithfulness in Christ, in our being "in Christ" can we even begin to die to self and lead a "good" life detached from the world. Religious practices are only true when they are centered on Christ, being with Him and getting to be "in Him". Like a marriage, it is about being in relationship. Any "exercise" whether its the Rosary or Scripture reading is meaningless otherwise.

 

[babylonisfalling]

You say we can be good when compared to other people but not when compared to God. Why would God hold us to an impossible standard that he knows we'd never achieve?

Never read the Bible, huh?

 

[Ana the Ist]

In previous articles we've talked about spiritual exercises to improve our afterlife. We've discussed the condemnation of hell and the redemption of heaven but not the redeemer himself, other than to quote him a few times. Where does Jesus Christ fit into any of this?

Moral exercises and working to disconnect ourselves from the material world are positive things which we should definitely practice. They can improve our standing in the afterlife of heaven but can spiritual exercises or good works actually get us to a heavenly state of existence?

Christians believe morality and good behavior, no matter how well practiced by human standards is still not good enough for God's divine standard. We can be good when compared to other humans but never when compared to God. The moral distance between God and us, between Spirit and flesh is just too great for flesh to make the jump.

Please check out the rest of the article here

Where is the thread on "heaven"? I must've missed it because I honestly don't remember seeing it. I'd be really interested in reading it since there are lots of threads on the concept of hell, but so few on the concept of heaven (which is a far more complicated concept than hell IMO). Is there any chance you could post a link to it?

 

[PsychoSarah]

You say we can be good when compared to other people but not when compared to God. Why would God hold us to an impossible standard that he knows we'd never achieve?

The bigger question is why people would, after reading that, have any motivation to even try to be good, seeing as ultimately they would fail to meet that standard

 

[babylonisfalling]

Where is the thread on "heaven"? I must've missed it because I honestly don't remember seeing it. I'd be really interested in reading it since there are lots of threads on the concept of hell, but so few on the concept of heaven (which is a far more complicated concept than hell IMO). Is there any chance you could post a link to it?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7823853/

Hope you like it

 

[babylonisfalling]

"In previous articles we've talked about spiritual exercises to improve our afterlife. We've discussed the condemnation of hell and the redemption of heaven"

From a Christian perspective, there are no spiritual exercises without Christ! Our spiritual life is all centered on drawing us closer to the heart of Christ. Its like "nurturing" a marriage. We dont improve our marriage without growing more intimate with our spouse. Reading books about marriage, getting counseling, working on communication skills, spending time with our spouse is all focused on getting closer to our spouse and dying to self to meet the needs of our marriage and family. Same thing with Christ! Christ is at the very center. He is the ultimate target in everything spiritual. What exactly that looks like in practice would be different from one faith tradition to the next. For example, in Catholicism, the Rosary is an intercessory prayer to the Virgin Mary asking her to pray that we may draw into the essential mysteries of His life. As we pray the Rosary, we meditate on these key events in Christs life to enter into His life , draw closer to him.

Only through our faithfulness in Christ, in our being "in Christ" can we even begin to die to self and lead a "good" life detached from the world. Religious practices are only true when they are centered on Christ, being with Him and getting to be "in Him". Like a marriage, it is about being in relationship. Any "exercise" whether its the Rosary or Scripture reading is meaningless otherwise.

Spiritual exercises without Christ. But once you have that relationship with Christ, spiritual exercises have value.

 

[Ana the Ist]

http://www.christianforums.com/t7823853/

Hope you like it

Ty!

 

[jayem]

2 questions:

They can improve our standing in the afterlife of heaven

What does this mean? I thought eternal life in the presence of Jesus is already the most exalted state of being conceivable. What improvement is possible? Are some souls in heaven more exalted than others?


And from the article:

Christ will not force his presence upon us.

Didn't he do exactly that to Saul of Tarsus? How do you know he hasn't done it to others, and won't do it again?

 

[babylonisfalling]

2 questions:



What does this mean? I thought eternal life in the presence of Jesus is already the most exalted state of being conceivable. What improvement is possible? Are some souls in heaven more exalted than others?


And from the article:

Christ will not force his presence upon us.

Didn't he do exactly that to Saul of Tarsus? How do you know he hasn't done it to others, and won't do it again?

No Paul was never forced to become a follower of Christ.

And here is the article about hierarchies in heaven

 

[jayem]

No Paul was never forced to become a follower of Christ.

But Jesus did force his presence upon Paul. If you meant something different you should amend your wording. Though how can you know when someone becomes a Christian, it's not a result of God acting directly on that person's will? If God hardened Pharoah's heart to keep the Hebrews in slavery, why couldn't he ordain that an unbeliever becomes a Christian?

And here is the article about hierarchies in heaven

You are a literalizing metaphorically worded passages. But how do you see the actual difference between the greatest and the least in heaven? Can you describe what the greatest experience that the least do not?

 

[babylonisfalling]

But Jesus did force his presence upon Paul. If you meant something different you should amend your wording. Though how can you know when someone becomes a Christian, it's not a result of God acting directly on that person's will? If God hardened Pharoah's heart to keep the Hebrews in slavery, why couldn't he ordain that an unbeliever becomes a Christian?


You are a literalizing metaphorically worded passages. But how do you see the actual difference between the greatest and the least in heaven? Can you describe what the greatest experience that the least do not?

Where does it say those passages are metaphorical OR that Christ forced Paul to be a follower.

If you want to say that Christ left no choice about seeing him on the road to Damascus that's fine, but that's not forcing him to be a follower. Nor are other experiences that Paul had with Christ after because by that time, Paul had already DECIDED to become a follower.

No...I don't know difference between the greatest and the least. The Bible speaks as if there are differences but I don't know about any heavenly experience.

 

[babylonisfalling]

The bigger question is why people would, after reading that, have any motivation to even try to be good, seeing as ultimately they would fail to meet that standard

Because most people would like to be good, being driven that way by the laws of God written on their hearts.

 

[FireDragon76]

No Paul was never forced to become a follower of Christ.

And here is the article about hierarchies in heaven

How does this square up with Jesus parable of the Vineyard?

 

[FireDragon76]

The bigger question is why people would, after reading that, have any motivation to even try to be good, seeing as ultimately they would fail to meet that standard

If you understood the subtle monergism implied, I think you would realize it isn't a matter of trying to be good (to earn something), but rather God doing good through us... that's how most Protestants tend to approach the issue. Genuine "good deeds" don't come from trying to earn a reward or please other people or ourselves. And that sort of disinterested state of mind can only come about when we are motivated by love.

 

[Emmy]

Dear babylonisfalling. Jesus is the Truth, and Jesus told is in
Matthew 22: 35-40: " The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all
thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. The second is like it:
Love thy neighbour as thyself." Then Jesus states this great fact: " On these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."
The Bible tells us: " Repent," and to " Be Born Again." Jesus tells us straightforward: "give up your selfish and unloving life-style, and change into
loving and caring sons and daughters of your Heavenly Father.
In Matthew 5:48: Jesus tells us: " Be ye therefore perfect, as your Father which is in Heaven is perfect." How? we love our neighbour as we love ourselves, always kindly and with friendly words, and when needed the helping hand. God will see our loving efforts, and God will approve and Bless us. In Matthew 7: 7-10: we are told: " ask and ye shall receive," we ask for Love and Joy, then thank God and share all Love and Joy with our neighbour.
We just keep asking and receiving, then thank God and share all Love and Joy with all around us. We might stumble and forget at times, but then we ask God to forgive us, and carry on Loving and Caring.
Jesus our Saviour will help and guide us, JESUS IS ALSO THE WAY.
A Christian`s great weapon is Love, with love we will overcome all anger and strife. Jesus gave us those Commandments, and God wants us to become perfect. It may take a long time, but Love is very catching, and Love will gradually change us into the men and women which God wants us to become.
I say this with love, babylonisfalling. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

 

[babylonisfalling]

It squares up fine.
If you think not then go ahead an explain

 

[babylonisfalling]

If you understood the subtle monergism implied, I think you would realize it isn't a matter of trying to be good (to earn something), but rather God doing good through us... that's how most Protestants tend to approach the issue. Genuine "good deeds" don't come from trying to earn a reward or please other people or ourselves. And that sort of disinterested state of mind can only come about when we are motivated by love.

That doesn't mean that it's wrong for someone to do good works with the idea of reward in mind. That type of reasoning can get a person on the road of good works and the road can lead the person to a better perspective on good works, a less selfish perspective. As a child might clean his room for a reward but in later years clean it for better reason.

 

[FireDragon76]

That doesn't mean that it's wrong for someone to do good works with the idea of reward in mind. That type of reasoning can get a person on the road of good works and the road can lead the person to a better perspective on good works, a less selfish perspective. As a child might clean his room for a reward but in later years clean it for better reason.

"on the road to good works"... no, that doesn't lead to a better perspective on good work. It just leads to a child learning conformity and stifled moral reasoning. Jesus points us to a God that is kind to both the just and the unjust- he gives blessings to everyone, not just to people that "do good works". And Jesus tells us to go and do likewise.

Doing good works for a reward just leads to doing more works for reward... it makes us mercenaries. I suppose its better than doing "bad works", but it hardly means we are better people for it, that we somehow deserve God's favor because of it.