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Where does "allah" say...

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Montalban

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The authors of the Koran never once state that their opus was divinely inspired.
I'm not disputing this. To save you the trouble of going over this again

a) the Bible is inspired by God
b) the Koran is not

We both have agreed on this for some time
They do tell us, repeatedly, that they merely copied from the Holy Bible, which is divinely inspired.

This I am disputing. So far after repeated times asking you why they did it we get to you saying that they did, again.
 
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ApplePie7

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This I am disputing. So far after repeated times asking you why they did it we get to you saying that they did, again.


This question has already been dealt with in other threads.

The bottom line is that Christians wrote the text. They state that they merely copied and translated the previously inspired scriptures into an Arabic collection.

They do state that it is for those that understand....and, at the time that the Koran was penned, there would have been precious few who actually understood it.

Thus...this would lead us to believe that it was an academic endeavour perhaps never meant for the ignorant populous...
 
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beamishboy

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And Beamishboy has admitted that one thread he cheered you on about he didn't read/comprehend properly

His blindly following you might boost your ego

I don't cheer applepie7 blindly. It's something like this: I know my Classics teacher is excellent with Classical Greek. I can tell he's scholastic and learned. But I may not understand everything he talks about because he's so profound.

The same thing with applepie7. Applepie7's knowledge and expertise are profound. I don't need to be as good as he in order to cheer him. We cheer a world-famous clarinettist not because we play as well but because we don't and he does. But it's not blind. I appreciate the depth of applepie7's knowledge.

You are jealous that I'm praising him. Who else knows so much about the subject? Nobody, really.
 
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Montalban

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I don't cheer applepie7 blindly. It's something like this: I know my Classics teacher is excellent with Classical Greek. I can tell he's scholastic and learned. But I may not understand everything he talks about because he's so profound.
Yes, but you know the qualifications of your teacher and you don't know Applepie7 - except you've just assumed he knows his stuff, because you do.

I've questioned you as to why you believe something and you've stated
a) you didn't really understand/follow one of his threads
and
b) you're too young to formulate opinions etc.

It probably would have been better, and seemingly less rude had you entered these threads and said something like "That's an interesting point" and then ask for clarification. Not to say something like "Well Applepie7 you're completely correct, and you've blown everyone else out of the water"

I apologise for having to go off-topic to discuss this, but you keep posting those types of posts on these threads. I'm not picking on you, personally. If you're mistaken I would argue against you, regardless of who you are. And, in point of fact when Applepie7 began his other thread about the Koran talking of Jesus I found some of his parallels very interesting - and am on record for saying so. (however his theory fell down when he can't show why someone would do what he claims they have done)
The same thing with applepie7. Applepie7's knowledge and expertise are profound. I don't need to be as good as he in order to cheer him. We cheer a world-famous clarinettist not because we play as well but because we don't and he does. But it's not blind. I appreciate the depth of applepie7's knowledge.

He certainly knows more languages than I do. However his establishing of a 'fact' is rather spurrious. (please forgive spelling mistakes)

He himself has shown what might be the use of a 'royal we' in Arabic. I keep using terms such as might because I don't know that it is the case, or not. But rather, I asked him, who has a greater knowledge of Arabic than me and he ignored it. This to me is highly telling. He ignores this and then crows that no one is debating him.

You are jealous that I'm praising him.
Not at all. I really believe you're doing yourself a dis-service by how you act here. (and yes, I realise people have opinions regarding how I act)
Who else knows so much about the subject? Nobody, really.

No. You make the same mistake he does. That is
a) Knowledge of Arabic
means
b) he is right about who wrote the Koran

You are impressed by his knowledge of Arabic. You then assume that conclusions he draws are correct about an historical document. If he were correct, I'd salute him but he's still unable to show why Christians would use a book not inspired by God to spread Christianity to the Arabs when the Bible was sufficient to do so. And why, in doing so, they changed the meaning so greatly as to have a highly metaphorical document (very poetic) that is fundamentally flawed in its transmission of the Christian message (evidenced by its view of the Trinity).

He could suggest heretics used it. He could suggest that heretics wrote it initially and it was subsequently changed by Moslems.

But he does none of this.

I appreciate the reverence one has for those who have knowledge. But one needs to have a reason. You associate him with people you know have knowledge of a subject. You can't both know he has knowledge on this subject and then say you can't understand the points he's making. How then do you know he has knowledge. What instead you're doing also is saying "Your argument sounds impressive." and then concluding "You know a lot about the subject"

Anyway, whilst you continue to blindly cheer, I will continue to debate you on this on these threads.

If you want to discuss the gist of what he says, I'll be happy to discuss this too.
 
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français

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I don't cheer applepie7 blindly. It's something like this: I know my Classics teacher is excellent with Classical Greek. I can tell he's scholastic and learned. But I may not understand everything he talks about because he's so profound.

The same thing with applepie7. Applepie7's knowledge and expertise are profound. I don't need to be as good as he in order to cheer him. We cheer a world-famous clarinettist not because we play as well but because we don't and he does. But it's not blind. I appreciate the depth of applepie7's knowledge.

You are jealous that I'm praising him. Who else knows so much about the subject? Nobody, really.

Is there a reason for you to have a size 4 font? Are you trying to seek attention or something? Geesh.

So, you believe what Applepie is saying because you believe he is smart? How do you know he is smart though? How do you know how knowledgeable and profound he is?

It is pretty hard to derive such a conclusion when you know so little about him. I haven't seen him give us any info about where he has gotten his degrees, or where he has learned from, etc.

Just because someone sounds profound, don't just believe it. Here, let me give you a little example..

You know oxy2hydro? The man used to be a Christian, has the whole Bible memorized, knows Hebrew, Greek, Arabic, and English, studied religion in University, has the Qu'ran memorized just about, and has studied religion intensively with Priests and Rabbi's.

He is a very smart and sophisticated man. Certainly more smarter then applepie(no offense applepie.) Does this however mean he is right because he thinks X and Y, and he is smart?

You have to find out if it is right. Don't just think applepie is right because he has made a few statements that you like, and you think he is smart.

I am sorry, but I believe you are just blindly following what he says, not questioning why he believes what he does, and not looking at the opposite side.
 
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français

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français;47827057 said:
No.




Yes.




Yes.




Yes.
Please explain why for every one.
No surprise.
Well, I am not about to speak about something I do not know about.


Ignorance.
So all these Arabs and scholars, for 1400 years, are ignorant?


"Plural of Majesty" never existed in the ANE (Ancient Near East).
That is not what I was taught at Church. Likewise, please prove this from citing linguistic scholars.

This challenge is copied from its Biblical source material.
So. It is still a challenge that if you doubt it is from God, then produce a surah like it. Hence, it is claiming to be from God.

Also, show where it is copying the Bible.


It does not stop you from posting...
c'est vrai!

So why are you bringing it up again when you have already been refuted?
 
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ApplePie7

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français;47839823 said:
You know oxy2hydro? The man used to be a Christian, has the whole Bible memorized, knows Hebrew, Greek, Arabic, and English, studied religion in University, has the Qu'ran memorized just about, and has studied religion intensively with Priests and Rabbi's.

He is a very smart and sophisticated man. Certainly more smarter then applepie(no offense applepie.) Does this however mean he is right because he thinks X and Y, and he is smart?


Then invite him for discussion...
 
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beamishboy

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It is in fact the internet equivelant of shouting.

I don't know why you guys are so picky. I choose size 4 font because it's the most readable. It's easy on the eye and it's more attractive than the same old tired font. It's my creativity, folks.

If a post is too long and the font is unvaried, I personally find it difficult to read it for long. Bigger fonts help as so do colours.
 
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Montalban

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I don't know why you guys are so picky. I choose size 4 font because it's the most readable. It's easy on the eye and it's more attractive than the same old tired font. It's my creativity, folks.

If a post is too long and the font is unvaried, I personally find it difficult to read it for long. Bigger fonts help as so do colours.

There's no rules against it, but it's often seen as 'shouting'. It's a way of making a point
 
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français

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Interesting, but even then.. He is speaking about Hebrew, written during the time range of around 1500BCE-400BCE(I believe w.r. Garr is a staunch believer in the documentary hypothesis, though I am not sure.) Likewise, there is a wide array of beliefs on this, but I will get to this later on, but first I want to ask you..
Why is "Elohim"(plural) used in the Torah instead of "Eloah"(singular)? Like, why do you think that is done, to refer to Trinity, or?

After you answer this we can discuss. I do believe this is relevant to the topic.
I don't know why you guys are so picky. I choose size 4 font because it's the most readable. It's easy on the eye and it's more attractive than the same old tired font. It's my creativity, folks.

If a post is too long and the font is unvaried, I personally find it difficult to read it for long. Bigger fonts help as so do colours.
Most readable? Sorry, but I prefer the smaller sizes(like 2 or 3.) Likewise, I know I said "size 4 font" but I realized now that "size 4" is not a font.. A font is a style of writing.. Like this. Or this. Or this. Or this. Or this.

So, my mistake. If you want to change the font, go right ahead.. In many places my font is Marianda GD. But the size is annoying and it makes me want to skip over you post! It is so big it just doesn't seem sophisticated.

Colors... Those are ok.. Though I still prefer the default black font!
 
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ApplePie7

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français;47853904 said:
Interesting, but even then.. He is speaking about Hebrew, written during the time range of around 1500BCE-400BCE(I believe w.r. Garr is a staunch believer in the documentary hypothesis, though I am not sure.) Likewise, there is a wide array of beliefs on this, but I will get to this later on, but first I want to ask you..

The text speaks of no plural of majesty the Ancient Near East (ANE), which includes Arabia.

Thus, when the authors of the Koran wrote "we" it meant a plurality.





Why is "Elohim"(plural) used in the Torah instead of "Eloah"(singular)? Like, why do you think that is done, to refer to Trinity, or?

After you answer this we can discuss. I do believe this is relevant to the topic.

To reveal the creator as uniplural.
 
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français

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The text speaks of no plural of majesty the Ancient Near East (ANE), which includes Arabia.

Thus, when the authors of the Koran wrote "we" it meant a plurality.
There is obviously a difference of opinion on this. Certainly the early Arabic speakers had no problem with interpreting "we" are plural of majesty.
To reveal the creator as uniplural.
Ah, so you do believe that Elohim is used to refer to Trinity(as you call, uniplural.)

Let me just ask you about something..

In 1 Kings 11:33, it says..
33 I will do this because they have forsaken me and worshiped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, Chemosh the god of the Moabites, and Molech the god of the Ammonites, and have not walked in my ways, nor done what is right in my eyes, nor kept my statutes and laws as David, Solomon's father, did. (This is the NIV translation.)

Notice that I have put in bold the "Chemosh the god of the Moabites."

In the Hebrew though, "Chemosh" is in plural! Why?! It is not speaking of more than one god, and any historian would tell you that Chemosh was no trinity-like figure.

Likewise, as it mentions "Chemosh the god" "Molech the god", and even "Ashtoreth the goddess" it uses "elohim", which is PLURAL for god, and not "eloah."

So if "Elohim" signifies unipluralality as you claim, then why is this like that? Why is it "Elohim" for these, and not "Eloah?" Likewise, why is the Hebrew "Chemosh" plural?

Here is my simplistic argument.. All the times it calls these people a god, it says it in plural, not singular.. Yet it mentions one particular god each time, so it should mention it is singular. Likewise, it says "Chemosh" in plural, which is weird.

Please explain..
 
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ApplePie7

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français;47856555 said:
There is obviously a difference of opinion on this. Certainly the early Arabic speakers had no problem with interpreting "we" are plural of majesty.


“Plural of Majesty” was invented to circumvent scriptures clearly showing a uniplural creator.



Ah, so you do believe that Elohim is used to refer to Trinity(as you call, uniplural.)

Yes.




Let me just ask you about something..

In 1 Kings 11:33, it says..
33 I will do this because they have forsaken me and worshiped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, Chemosh the god of the Moabites, and Molech the god of the Ammonites, and have not walked in my ways, nor done what is right in my eyes, nor kept my statutes and laws as David, Solomon's father, did. (This is the NIV translation.)

Notice that I have put in bold the "Chemosh the god of the Moabites."

In the Hebrew though, "Chemosh" is in plural! Why?! It is not speaking of more than one god, and any historian would tell you that Chemosh was no trinity-like figure.

Likewise, as it mentions "Chemosh the god" "Molech the god", and even "Ashtoreth the goddess" it uses "elohim", which is PLURAL for god, and not "eloah."

So if "Elohim" signifies unipluralality as you claim, then why is this like that? Why is it "Elohim" for these, and not "Eloah?" Likewise, why is the Hebrew "Chemosh" plural?

Here is my simplistic argument.. All the times it calls these people a god, it says it in plural, not singular.. Yet it mentions one particular god each time, so it should mention it is singular. Likewise, it says "Chemosh" in plural, which is weird.

Please explain..



Context.

The context tells us whether “elohim” is interpreted as singular or plural.

Your example uses “elohim” three times, with three separate gods.

One “elohim” with each god.

There is no indication that any of the mentioned gods are plural in nature.
 
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