Where does "allah" say...

[elwill]

Wrong.

It was not written that "Muhammad" had anything at all to do with the text because he didn't...and it was not inspired.

Pure and simple.

This is islamic myth.

so you think that mohammed never exist ?

Observe...

والذين ءامنوا وعملوا الصلحت وءامنوا بما نزل​

على محمد وهو الحق من ربهم كفر عنهم​

سيءاتهم وأصلح بالهم​

Waallatheena amanoo waAAamiloo alssalihati waamanoo bima nuzzila AAala muhammadin wahuwa alhaqqu min rabbihim kaffara AAanhum sayyi-atihim waaslaha balahum

47.2 And whom they believed and they did the righteous deeds, and they believed on account of that which was sent down according to (the) Praised One, and He, The Truth, from their Lord, to forgive them of their evil, thou pay, and He did that which was good, right, or just (in) their heart.


How is it that "Muhammad" is called "The Truth" same as Jesus Christ?

How is it that "Muhammad" has the power to forgive sins?


Is "Muhammad" a God-man?

your claims can be refuted easily , if you know the correct translation

2 - But those who believe and work deeds of Righteousness, and believe in the (Revelation) sent down to Muhammad for it is the Truth from their Lord, He will remove from them their ills and improve their condition.​

How is it that "Muhammad" is called "The Truth" same as Jesus Christ?

first of all , we consider all the prophets are truth . but what you missed here is that the word "truth" refer to the revelation sent to mohammed , not refer to mohammed himself , read the verse again

i know what will you say , you will tell me that arabic name "Howa" means "he" no t"it"
but , may be because of your limited knowledge about arabic language you don't know that "howa" in arabic can be used as it , and can be used as he .

How is it that "Muhammad" has the power to forgive sins?

i just will make it easier for oyu to understand this point , so try to read the blue words alone first

2 - But those who believe andwork deeds of Righteousness, and believe in the (Revelation) sent down to Muhammad for it is the Truth from their Lord, He will remove from them their ills and improve their condition.​

so what do you think "he" refer to?
it refers to God ​

for another proof support this understanding , read the verse before it​

1 - Those who reject God and hinder (men) from the Path of God, their deeds will God render astray (from their mark​

Is "Muhammad" a God-man?​

no​

 

[elwill]

If I may ask respectfully, in a practical sense when you look at the real world, what ills of Muslims has Allah removed or what conditions of theirs has Allah improved that will show you that that Surah is true and prophetic?

it is the same when you think that anyone believe in jesus , his life should be change and he will see the light and feel the peace in his heart

this is the scope of what allah says in this verse for whom follow islam , it how he improves thier conditions

ills refer to all wrong deeds he did pre_islam , which will be removed if he follow the islam
ills may be not accurate translation
the arabic word is 'sayeah' means wrong deed
the arabic word " hasanah" means good deed

 

[beamishboy]

it is the same when you think that anyone believe in jesus , his life should be change and he will see the light and feel the peace in his heart

this is the scope of what allah says in this verse for whom follow islam , it how he improves thier conditions

ills refer to all wrong deeds he did pre_islam , which will be removed if he follow the islam
ills may be not accurate translation
the arabic word is 'sayeah' means wrong deed
the arabic word " hasanah" means good deed

Thanks elwill. That's much clearer to me now.

 

[elwill]

Thanks elwill. That's much clearer to me now.

you are wellcome

 

[Montalban]

Thanks elwill. That's much clearer to me now.

Do you have any opinion on why Chrisitans would use a non-inspired work to take Christianity to others?

Anything not from God would seem to be counter-productive

 

[beamishboy]

Do you have any opinion on why Chrisitans would use a non-inspired work to take Christianity to others?

Anything not from God would seem to be counter-productive

I don't follow what you are saying, Montalban. Are you saying that the Quran is a non-inspired work that Christians use to preach Christianity?

 

[Montalban]

I don't follow what you are saying, Montalban. Are you saying that the Quran is a non-inspired work that Christians use to preach Christianity?

That's Applepie's idea. With all your cheering of him, I'm amazed you didn't pick up on it.

 

[beamishboy]

That's Applepie's idea. With all your cheering of him, I'm amazed you didn't pick up on it.

I cheered him for his scholarship and his openness. And also his willingness to debate on another person's turf. That requires guts, ability and knowledge. But as I have said, his posts are very long and they are all about linguistic points which are a bit too meaty for me. I did say I didn't read everything.

If that is applepie's idea, I need to know more before I can come to some conclusion. He probably knows more and it would be wrong to say he's wrong without listening to his evidence. From the little knowledge that I have now, I don't think Christians used the Quran at all. I always think of it as the book of a different religion but then again, to be fair, I've never read the Quran nor do I know much about Islam.

 

[Montalban]

I cheered him for his scholarship and his openness. And also his willingness to debate on another person's turf. That requires guts, ability and knowledge. But as I have said, his posts are very long and they are all about linguistic points which are a bit too meaty for me. I did say I didn't read everything.

If that is applepie's idea, I need to know more before I can come to some conclusion. He probably knows more and it would be wrong to say he's wrong without listening to his evidence. From the little knowledge that I have now, I don't think Christians used the Quran at all. I always think of it as the book of a different religion but then again, to be fair, I've never read the Quran nor do I know much about Islam.

That was in fact what he devoted an entire thread on, when you agreed with his knowledge then

 

[ApplePie7]

so you think that mohammed never exist ?




The term “Muhammad” was never a proper name in the ancient Koranic Arabic.

It is actually a participle….and means “praised one”…“a man praised much”.


Observing the classic definition of the word “Muhammad”, and all Koranic usages of its root “hamida”, (outside of the four ayahs which actually contain the term “Muhammad” and “Ahmad”) reveal this:

• The word itself is not a proper name
• The word is a participle…i.e. it combines the functions of both adjective and verb
• It applies to one man
• This man is praised
• He is the only man praised
• The root “hamida”, from which “Muhammad” is derived, refers to the praising of God
• Surveying all 68 Koranic occurrences of the root “hamida” and its sixteen derivatives, demonstrates that it is always used in direct relation to Koranic deity (i.e. “allah”, lord)
• The only Koranic instance of a derivative not pertaining to deity is in 3.188 - in which people are tortured for accepting praises – thus, reserving “praise” for deity only
• This leaves us with the five remaining ayahs
• All 5 of these ayahs refer to a man
• All 5 ayahs refer to a man that is praised

Thus…

This begs the question…

1) How could the “praising” (that is reserved only for Koranic deity) be applied to a single man?

your claims can be refuted easily , if you know the correct translation

2 - But those who believe and work deeds of Righteousness, and believe in the (Revelation) sent down to Muhammad for it is the Truth from their Lord, He will remove from them their ills and improve their condition.​

Let’s look to the Arabic…

والذين ءامنوا وعملوا الصلحت وءامنوا بما نزل​

على محمد وهو الحق من ربهم كفر عنهم​

سيءاتهم وأصلح بالهم​

Waallatheena amanoo waAAamiloo alssalihati waamanoo bima nuzzila AAala muhammadin wahuwa alhaqqu min rabbihim kaffara AAanhum sayyi-atihim waaslaha balahum

47.2 And whom they believed and they did the righteous deeds, and they believed on account of that which was sent down according to (the) Praised One, and He, The Truth, from their Lord, to forgive them of their evil, thou pay, and He did that which was good, right, or just (in) their heart.


“Wahuwa” means “and He”, as “huwa” is an indeclinable personal pronoun of the third person, masculine singular.

Again, and all throughout the Koran, “The Truth” is in direct reference to Jesus Christ, (i.e. in this case “Praised One”) just as you saw that it was in 4.171.

first of all , we consider all the prophets are truth .

As demonstrated in 4.171, ‘The Truth’ is only applied to Jesus Christ and no other…not even “allah”.

but what you missed here is that the word "truth" refer to the revelation sent to mohammed , not refer to mohammed himself , read the verse again

i know what will you say , you will tell me that arabic name "Howa" means "he" no t"it"
but , may be because of your limited knowledge about arabic language you don't know that "howa" in arabic can be used as it , and can be used as he .

Here’s the classic definition for “huwa”…

هو = “huwa”

“huwa” definition:

He; it. It is an indeclinable personal pronoun of the third person, masculine singular.

References:
A Grammar of the Arabic Language, W. Wright, Third edition, volume 1, p. 54
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar p. 596
A Dictionary and Glossary of the Koran, John Penrice, p. 155


How “huwa” is used is determined by its context.
على محمد وهو الحق من ربهم

The masculine singular personal pronoun “huwa” is preceded by the term “Muhammad” – which, by definition, refers to a man (male)….not an it….
What was sent down has already been separated by the transition verb “ala”.
Thus, grammatically, “Muhammad” is ‘The Truth’, same as declared in 4.171, all over the Koran, and in the Bible, as well.

i just will make it easier for oyu to understand this point , so try to read the blue words alone first

2 - But those who believe andwork deeds of Righteousness, and believe in the (Revelation) sent down to Muhammad for it is the Truth from their Lord, He will remove from them their ills and improve their condition.​

so what do you think "he" refer to?
it refers to God ​

Wrong.
“He” refers to “Muhammad”.
The prepositional phrase “from their lord” is yet another in a list of descriptives for “Muhammad”, along with ‘The Truth’.
“Muhammad” is shown to have the ability to forgive the sins of nations elsewhere in the Koran – thus, this ayah is no different.

for another proof support this understanding , read the verse before it

​

1 - Those who reject God and hinder (men) from the Path of God, their deeds will God render astray (from their mark
​

​

no​

According to the authors of the Koran, yes, “Muhammad” is a God-man.

 

[beamishboy]

That was in fact what he devoted an entire thread on, when you agreed with his knowledge then

I don't have a firm view on these things and will just flow with the strongest tide. But the trouble is I don't really read all the tide has to offer because it's too much reading. Hehe.

 

[elwill]

The term “Muhammad” was never a proper name in the ancient Koranic Arabic.

It is actually a participle….and means “praised one”…“a man praised much”.


Observing the classic definition of the word “Muhammad”, and all Koranic usages of its root “hamida”, (outside of the four ayahs which actually contain the term “Muhammad” and “Ahmad&#8221 reveal this:

• The word itself is not a proper name
• The word is a participle…i.e. it combines the functions of both adjective and verb
• It applies to one man
• This man is praised
• He is the only man praised
• The root “hamida”, from which “Muhammad” is derived, refers to the praising of God
• Surveying all 68 Koranic occurrences of the root “hamida” and its sixteen derivatives, demonstrates that it is always used in direct relation to Koranic deity (i.e. “allah”, lord)
• The only Koranic instance of a derivative not pertaining to deity is in 3.188 - in which people are tortured for accepting praises – thus, reserving “praise” for deity only
• This leaves us with the five remaining ayahs
• All 5 of these ayahs refer to a man
• All 5 ayahs refer to a man that is praised

whatever , i wanna specific answer
do you wanna to say that mohammed (pbuh) never exist ?

Let’s look to the Arabic…

والذين ءامنوا وعملوا الصلحت وءامنوا بما نزل​

على محمد وهو الحق من ربهم كفر عنهم​

سيءاتهم وأصلح بالهم​

Waallatheena amanoo waAAamiloo alssalihati waamanoo bima nuzzila AAala muhammadin wahuwa alhaqqu min rabbihim kaffara AAanhum sayyi-atihim waaslaha balahum

47.2 And whom they believed and they did the righteous deeds, and they believed on account of that which was sent down according to (the) Praised One, and He, The Truth, from their Lord, to forgive them of their evil, thou pay, and He did that which was good, right, or just (in) their heart.


“Wahuwa” means “and He”, as “huwa” is an indeclinable personal pronoun of the third person, masculine singular.

Again, and all throughout the Koran, “The Truth” is in direct reference to Jesus Christ, (i.e. in this case “Praised One&#8221 just as you saw that it was in 4.171.

i already answered to that before , let me quote what i said to you in post #141

i know what will you say , you will tell me that arabic name "Howa" means "he" not"it"
but , may be because of your limited knowledge about arabic language you don't know that "howa" in arabic can be used as it , and can be used as he .

excuse me , just to proof your ignorance or your deception , whatever

here is an example where you find "wahuwa" means it and means which

2-216 Kutiba AAalaykumu alqitalu wahuwa kurhun lakum waAAasa an takrahoo shayan wahuwa khayrun lakum waAAasa an tuhibboo shayan wahuwa sharrun lakum waAllahu yaAAlamu waantum la taAAlamoona

Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.

here we are , this is our word applepie , i look forward to know how your interpretation will be here ?

oh , one second
there are point may be you will rise here about the first howa because the order not the same , i will try to make it with the same order , i hope i made it in correct grammar

Kutiba AAalaykumu alqitalu wahuwa kurhun lakum
it be prescribed for you the fight and it is disliked by you

 

[ApplePie7]

whatever , i wanna specific answer
do you wanna to say that mohammed (pbuh) never exist ?

Surely, the study of the classic Arabic of your book of faith is worthy of more than "whatever"....this makes it sound as if you are giving up...

The term "Muhammad" only appears four times in the Arabic of your book of faith.

In each of these locations, it is used as an epithet for the Biblical Jesus Christ.

We know that Jesus existed, thus, calling Him the 'Praised One' is most appropriate.

As far as someone named "Muhammad" existing at the time the Koran was penned is doubtful...as it only became a common name at a later date...

Perhaps you are confusing the islamic "Muhammad" with the Koranic "Muhammad"...yes?

i already answered to that before , let me quote what i said to you in post #141


excuse me , just to proof your ignorance or your deception , whatever

here is an example where you find "wahuwa" means it and means which

2-216 Kutiba AAalaykumu alqitalu wahuwa kurhun lakum waAAasa an takrahoo shayan wahuwa khayrun lakum waAAasa an tuhibboo shayan wahuwa sharrun lakum waAllahu yaAAlamu waantum la taAAlamoona

Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.

here we are , this is our word applepie , i look forward to know how your interpretation will be here ?

oh , one second
there are point may be you will rise here about the first howa because the order not the same , i will try to make it with the same order , i hope i made it in correct grammar

Kutiba AAalaykumu alqitalu wahuwa kurhun lakum
it be prescribed for you the fight and it is disliked by you

So...

Now, instead of directly addressing the ayah in question, 47.2, you jump to a completely different ayah.

Perhaps you need to slow-down a bit and read where we stated that how "huwa" is used depends upon the context of the ayah in which it resides.

Demonstrate to us that "huwa", as used in 47.2, means "it"....instead of "him"...

 

[Montalban]

I don't have a firm view on these things and will just flow with the strongest tide. But the trouble is I don't really read all the tide has to offer because it's too much reading. Hehe.

So an entire thread in which you kept posting what a brilliant mind he had etc. you didn't read properly?

What's that say about your cheering him on?

 

[beamishboy]

So an entire thread in which you kept posting what a brilliant mind he had etc. you didn't read properly?

What's that say about your cheering him on?

It's the best I can do given my current age and level of understanding. How many 13 year olds you know who are smarter than me? None, I daresay. Hehe.

 

[ApplePie7]

It's the best I can do given my current age and level of understanding. How many 13 year olds you know who are smarter than me? None, I daresay. Hehe.

And...like you said...even you take time to study the original languages of scripture.

Others, that slavishly reply in this thread, just can't be bothered...


You're doing a great job...!

 

[beamishboy]

And...like you said...even you take time to study the original languages of scripture.

Others, that slavishly reply in this thread, just can't be bothered...


You're doing a great job...!

Thanks, applepie7!!! Looks like they can't get at you so the easiest thing to do is to get at me. Pick the youngest among the supporters and attack him. Hehe.

 

[français]

Beamishboy - You blindly follow anything that you hear, as long as it agrees with your "agenda" per se. Yet, you have no clue why you believe it.. you just hear someone say it, and without asking questions or anything, you just say "oh that is so true" and keep praising the person who says it. You believe what you want to believe, and disbelieve in what you wish, even if you are clearly wrong. You cherry pick everything.

You likewise as extremely uneducated. You claim that many Arabs have the name "Allah" but this is purely ignorant. Some people may have the name like "Abdullah" which means "Slave of God" but rarely ever(if even ever) do you see someone with the name "Allah."

Oh, and I remember where you made a silly post where you objected to Muslims being called "Slave of God." Before you make your silly objection again, let me go ahead and address this..
Paul likewise calls himself a "Slave of God" in Romans 1:1. Some translators will use "servant" instead, and some say it is figuratively, etc etc. Since you are a Protestant, I will post what Strong's says on the word, since Protestants seem to trust Strongs..
δοῦλος
doulos
doo'-los
From G1210; a slave (literally or figuratively, involuntarily or voluntarily; frequently therefore in a qualified sense of subjection or subserviency): - bond (-man), servant.

Now I don't think it is bad to be called "Slave of God" because any true believer, regardless of religion, should want to submit to God and his will. So, there is some logic for you.

Applepie - You must be joking. You actually think that "we" used in the Qu'ran is used to refer to Trinity? You likewise think that the Qur'an is a book written by Christians as a way to praise Jesus? You think it claims that Jesus is God?

I am not an expert of Arabic, so I will not try to really get into this discussion. But let us apply some logic here..

1. Why is it that throughout history, the vast, overwhelmingly majority of Arabic speakers and Arabic scholars have said that the Qur'an was sent directly from God to a man named Muhammad ibn Abdullah? Most Arabs hold this view. A minority(in particular, Christian Arabs) hold the view that the Qur'an was written by Muhammad, but they still easily agree that it does not say Jesus is God, etc.

2. How does saying "We" in the Qu'ran imply Trinity? I think it is pretty well agreed upon that "We" is used to imply majesty, as it is likewise in Hebrew.

3. The Qu'ran has a "Surah like it" challenge, where if you doubt it is from God, produce a Surah like it. Is it not then well established that the Qu'ran claims to be from God, even if it was not really so?

Applepie, your views are plain silly. Likewise, you bring up this same rhetoric time after time, posting the same thing.. Oxy2hydro addressed you a while back, as has many others.

 

[Montalban]

And...like you said...even you take time to study the original languages of scripture.

Others, that slavishly reply in this thread, just can't be bothered...


You're doing a great job...!

Are you saying Beamishboy understands Greek? It was my understanding that he said he didn't know any other language

 

[Montalban]

Thanks, applepie7!!! Looks like they can't get at you so the easiest thing to do is to get at me. Pick the youngest among the supporters and attack him. Hehe.

That's simply false. At least you share that with Applepie7, misrepresentation.

Firstly, I've addressed Applepie7. He's ignored my posts. I'm still waiting for him to discuss the 'royal we' in Arabic -which he himself seems to have demonstrated

Secondly, you too have been caught out.

You cheered and congratulated him in a thread you now admit you know nothing about... it's important to note this for two reasons
a) you just cheer him on again, the same way
and
b) that topic is central to his mistake here.

Next he gives you a congratulations on knowing text in its original language. When did you learn Greek?