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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
Where does "allah" say...
- Thread starter ApplePie7
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Kutte
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AplePie,
You asked:
Where, in the entire Koran, does "allah" state, in the first-person singular, that he created anything....?
Good question. I don't know.
Take a peek at my blog WHY ISLAM IS NOT FOR ME, just two clicks away.
You asked:
Where, in the entire Koran, does "allah" state, in the first-person singular, that he created anything....?
Good question. I don't know.
Take a peek at my blog WHY ISLAM IS NOT FOR ME, just two clicks away.
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elwill
Senior Member
[49-13] - O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise each other). Verily the most honored of you in the sight of God is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And God has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).
chapter 77
20 - Have We not created you from a fluid (held) despicable?
21 - The which We placed in a place of rest, firmly fixed,
22 - For a period (of gestation), determined (according to need)?
23 - For We do determine (according to need); for We are the Best to determine (things).
24 - Ah woe, that Day, to the Rejecters of Truth!
25 - Have We not made the earth (as a place) to draw together
26 - The living and the dead,
27 - And made therein mountains standing firm, lofty (in stature); and provided for you water sweet (and wholesome)?
28 - Ah woe, that Day, to the Rejecters of Truth!
chapter 78
5 - Verily, verily they shall soon (come to) know!
6 - Have We not made the earth as a wide expanse,
7 - And the mountains as pegs?
8 - And (have We not) created you in pairs,
9 - And made your sleep for rest,
10 - And made the night as a covering,
11 - And made the day as a means of subsistence?
12 - And (have We not) built over you the seven firmaments,
13 - And placed (therein) a Light of Splendour?
14 - And do We not send down from the clouds water in abundance,
15 - That We may produce therewith corn and vegetables,
16 - And gardens of luxurious growth?
chapter 77
20 - Have We not created you from a fluid (held) despicable?
21 - The which We placed in a place of rest, firmly fixed,
22 - For a period (of gestation), determined (according to need)?
23 - For We do determine (according to need); for We are the Best to determine (things).
24 - Ah woe, that Day, to the Rejecters of Truth!
25 - Have We not made the earth (as a place) to draw together
26 - The living and the dead,
27 - And made therein mountains standing firm, lofty (in stature); and provided for you water sweet (and wholesome)?
28 - Ah woe, that Day, to the Rejecters of Truth!
chapter 78
5 - Verily, verily they shall soon (come to) know!
6 - Have We not made the earth as a wide expanse,
7 - And the mountains as pegs?
8 - And (have We not) created you in pairs,
9 - And made your sleep for rest,
10 - And made the night as a covering,
11 - And made the day as a means of subsistence?
12 - And (have We not) built over you the seven firmaments,
13 - And placed (therein) a Light of Splendour?
14 - And do We not send down from the clouds water in abundance,
15 - That We may produce therewith corn and vegetables,
16 - And gardens of luxurious growth?
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beamishboy
Well-Known Member
Hi ApplePie7, it's good to see you again. Looking forward to reading more threads started by you.
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This is not first person singular. The question is: Where, in the entire Koran, does "allah" state, in the first-person singular, that he created anything....?
For instance, what ApplePie7 wants is something like this:
- O mankind! I created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise each other). Verily the most honored of you in the sight of Me is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And I have full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).
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elwill
Senior Member
This is a style of speech. Sometime the speaker says I and sometime says we. We also use that in our conversations. In the Quran you will see that often the first person singular such as I or My is used, when Allah speaks about His love, care and closeness and forgiveness for His servants.
In a similar way the first person plural is often used when Allah speaks about His power, majesty, glory, great deeds or when He speaks about His anger and wrath for the sinners and criminals.
See for example the verses where the first person singular is used:
When My servants ask thee concerning Me, I am indeed close (to them): I listen to the prayer of every suppliant when he calleth on Me: let them also, with a will, listen to My call, and believe in Me: that they may walk in the right way. (al-Baqarah 2:186)
Or Verily, I am Allah: there is no god but I: so serve thou Me (only), and establish regular prayer for celebrating My praise. (Taha 20:14)
or But, without doubt, I am (also) He that forgives again and again, to those who repent, believe, and do right, who, in fine, are ready to receive true guidance. (Taha 20:82)
or see another example where both pronouns are used side by side,
Before them the People of Noah rejected (their Messenger): they rejected Our servant, and said, Here is one possessed! and he was driven out. Then he called on His Lord: I am one overcome: do Thou then help (me)! So We opened the gates of heaven, with water pouring forth. And We caused the earth to gush forth with springs. So the waters met (and rose) to the extent decreed. But We bore him on an (Ark) made of broad planks and caulked with palm-fiber: She floats under Our eyes (and care): a recompense to one who had been rejected (with scorn)! And We have left this as a Sign (for all time): then is there any that will receive admonition? But how (terrible) was My Penalty and My Warning? (al-Qamar 54:9-16)
after all In such cases, only one person is speaking but the plural is used for respect. The One Who is more deserving of respect than any other is Allaah, may He be glorified and exalted, so when He says in the Qur'an innaa ("Verily We") and nahnu ("We"), it is for respect and glorification, not to indicate plurality of numbers.
In a similar way the first person plural is often used when Allah speaks about His power, majesty, glory, great deeds or when He speaks about His anger and wrath for the sinners and criminals.
See for example the verses where the first person singular is used:
When My servants ask thee concerning Me, I am indeed close (to them): I listen to the prayer of every suppliant when he calleth on Me: let them also, with a will, listen to My call, and believe in Me: that they may walk in the right way. (al-Baqarah 2:186)
Or Verily, I am Allah: there is no god but I: so serve thou Me (only), and establish regular prayer for celebrating My praise. (Taha 20:14)
or But, without doubt, I am (also) He that forgives again and again, to those who repent, believe, and do right, who, in fine, are ready to receive true guidance. (Taha 20:82)
or see another example where both pronouns are used side by side,
Before them the People of Noah rejected (their Messenger): they rejected Our servant, and said, Here is one possessed! and he was driven out. Then he called on His Lord: I am one overcome: do Thou then help (me)! So We opened the gates of heaven, with water pouring forth. And We caused the earth to gush forth with springs. So the waters met (and rose) to the extent decreed. But We bore him on an (Ark) made of broad planks and caulked with palm-fiber: She floats under Our eyes (and care): a recompense to one who had been rejected (with scorn)! And We have left this as a Sign (for all time): then is there any that will receive admonition? But how (terrible) was My Penalty and My Warning? (al-Qamar 54:9-16)
after all In such cases, only one person is speaking but the plural is used for respect. The One Who is more deserving of respect than any other is Allaah, may He be glorified and exalted, so when He says in the Qur'an innaa ("Verily We") and nahnu ("We"), it is for respect and glorification, not to indicate plurality of numbers.
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That's correct, GeorgeTwo...
Elwill posted ayahs that are written in the first-person plural....but not in the first-person singular.
This tells us that "allah" required help in creating things.
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Brother Elwill...
Thanks for your responses, however, "plural of respect"...and "plural of majesty" never existed in ancient Arabic.
This is a modern invention by Islam to rationalize why their "singular god allah" would be shown to be plural.
Fact is, when it comes to creation in the Koran, "allah" never once states in the first-person singular, that he created anything.
Nothing.
Zero.
Every Koranic creation ayah shows a plural entity that creates.
In fact, if we look close in the Koran, we see that Jesus Christ is required to help the god "allah" in creating the Universe.
Hence, we can understand why it is that the god "allah" cannot state in the first-person singular that he created anything...because he didn't.
Jesus Christ did.
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Color me stupid, but I still don't think you have answered the question in the OP:
Where, in the entire Koran, does "allah" state, in the first-person singular, that he created anything....?
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elwill
Senior Member
i don't know what sources you depend on , but it's enough for me that i'm from arab , i don't need from you to teach me my mother tongue or the history of my language , i even doupt if you know the arabic letters
you even don't know that plural of respect exist in hebrew language , do you ?
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We use only the highest quality classic Arabic lexicography and grammar sources available when evaluating the ancient Arabic.
Perhaps you have fallen into the trap of applying modern Arabic meanings and rules to that of the extinct classic Arabic in which the Koran was first penned.
Thus, when the authors of the Koran state "we", they meant a plurality.
Fact is, "plural of majesty" never existed in Biblical Hebrew, either....or anywhere in the Ancient Near East (ANE).
Thus, when "we" is stated in the Genesis creation account, this is a clear indicator of the plurality in the singular creator God.
The authors of the Koran understood this when they copied Genesis material into their opus....such as the '6-day' creation, etc, etc...
Hence, we will never see the Koran stating that "allah" created anything first-hand, as "allah" is a false god to begin with...and false gods have no creative power...
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elwill
Senior Member
This is indeed a very strange allegation!
The grammar of the Arabic language is largely founded on the Qur'an and was not put down in writing until well over a hundred years after the Qur'an was revealed.
The Classical Arabic language became a language we can talk about as having a fixed grammar largely because of the Qur'an.
Dictionaries and grammar books were first written to preserve the language of the Qur'an and the hadiths from the changes to the Arabic language that were happening as a result of the sudden growth of the Islamic Caliphate into new populations stretching from (what is now) Pakistan to Portugal.
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Using classic references is hardly an allegation.
It is good that you understand that the Koran was used as a centerpiece for classic grammar...and...such as it is...contains not a single solitary instance of "allah" claiming in the first-person singular that he created anything at all.
In fact, he cannot even make the claim that he is "the first & the last".
Yahweh was able to make this statement, in the first-person singular, three times in the OT.
Jesus Christ was able to make this statement, in the first person singular, three times in the NT.
But the Koranic "allah"...?
No.
He cannot make this statement even once, in the first-person singular, in the Koran.
Not once.
The best that he can do is to have someone state this of him, in the third-person.
Again...."allah" has no power of his own.
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