Where do you stand?

unitedistand said:

well, terri, it's not so much that we are free from the law, but the Holy Spirit helps us fufill the law. also, when we do mess up, God's grace covers us

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I'm sorry, but I also have to disaggree with you. If Christ fulfilled the law then there is nothing to fulfill. Which means that we no longer have to live under it. Romans 7 has a good illustation of this. Once you die, you die to the legal binds of the law. It has no more power over you.

The life that we now live is to be in Christ. It is a life of relationship and submittion to God. Submittion not born by obey letters of a law, but of obeying the Spirit within in an ongoing relationship. The law used to be a drill sargent, but grace is a loving Father who moves out of love, not just comands.

SnuP said:

I'm sorry, but I also have to disaggree with you. If Christ fulfilled the law then there is nothing to fulfill. Which means that we no longer have to live under it. Romans 7 has a good illustation of this. Once you die, you die to the legal binds of the law. It has no more power over you.

The life that we now live is to be in Christ. It is a life of relationship and submittion to God. Submittion not born by obey letters of a law, but of obeying the Spirit within in an ongoing relationship. The law used to be a drill sargent, but grace is a loving Father who moves out of love, not just comands.

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Thanks SnuP!

Sometimes I feel so lonely when I feel I am out from under the law all by myself!!!

Love you in the Lord SnuP!

Terri

I believe in Reformed theology including the doctrine of election.

However, I do not call myself a Calvinist. Why? I have never studied Calvin's teachings.

I became convinced of this through a study of the Bible.

That is interesting.

I became convinced that such teaching is a false doctrine also through studying the bible. And I never even heard the term Calvin back then.

Ask your self, what is the highest form of authority on the planet? If it is God's will as Calvinist believe, then why all the rape, murder of innocence, abortion, adultry, homosexualiyt? Why all of the things that God detest so much if His will is surpreme and we cannot do anything unless He wills it? See, that doesn't make sence to me.

Election is about salvation. Not the other things you mentioned.

Calvist teach more then just election. They believe that God's will is supreme in the earth, and that is why God's will is supreme in election.

It is the Armenian contention that man's will is supreme on the earth, and so man has to chose God.

This is why I offer proof that at the foundation of what authority is supreme in the earth, Calvinist start out in error, which by logic makes the whole argument in error.

Where is the scriptural basis for you argument?

Genesis

At creation, God gives the authority to man to have dominion over the earth. The bible never talkes of God taking this dominion back, but instead, God sits as judge of how man rules over the earth. After the flood, we still see that Noah has the authority over the earth because so quickly everything falls into disarray. If God was taking the dominion back, then He at this point is doing a very bad job. Can you show scripture to support the idea that God has supreme authority on the earth?

I was merely curious. I do not intend to debate this with you.

ok

SnuP, what Calvinists/Reformed theologians have you studied that led you to believe this is what Reformed theology teaches?

Actually quite the oposite. My personal study and interaction with God has lead me to believe, as I have expressed. It is my experience on the forums, here and other forums, that has shown me others beliefs. What I have argued against has commonly been the view of Calvinist who have debated me. If I have misrepresented their beliefs, I apologize, but my true intention was rather to argue the falasies of some commonly held beliefs, not to catagorize all calvinist. I do believe what I said to be true of most calvinist though, even if they would never choose such wording. But just as there are many differing prodestant teachings, I bet there are many differing calvinist teaching.

Take note, SnuP, that just because someone claims a certain belief that you cannot assume they are representing it correctly 100% of the time. I would suggest to you to actually study reformed theology rather than jumping to conclusions based on what a few people on a message board have said.

Trust me, there are true Calvinists and there are not. Those who hold to the Reformation will disagree with your statement that there are many differing Calvinist teachings. There is a group labeled "extreme Calvinists," however, that teach that since God sovereignly decrees who will attain salvation, then evangelism is not required. That is simply not true, in fact, Arminians may tend to do much less evangelism than do true Calvinists. That I believe is the major difference within "Calvinism."

Sorry if this is out of place here. I just have a question. The thought of Calvinism scares me. I mean, what if I was not predestined for salvation and this is only wishful hoping on my part and I am doing this in vain? If you are predestined then how do you know it? Thanks for any answers to this.

"By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestined unto everlasting life and others foreordained to everlasting death" (3). "These angels and men, thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite that it cannot be either increased or diminished" (4).

"The rest of mankind, God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will, whereby he extendeth or withholdeth mercy as he pleaseth, for the glory of his sovereign power over his creatures, to pass by, and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of his glorious justice" (7).

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• that fallen man was totally unable to save himself (Total Depravity)
• that God's electing purpose was not conditioned by anything in man (Unconditional Election)
• that Christ's atoning death was sufficient to save all men, but efficient only for the elect (Limited Atonement)
• that the gift of faith, sovereignly given by God's Holy Spirit, cannot be resisted by the elect (Irresistible Grace)
• that those who are regenerated and justified will persevere in the faith (Perseverance of the saints)

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Nevertheless it does appear necessary to the topic assigned me to affirm that the teaching of Scripture on the divine sovereignty requires us to recognize with Calvin that all events are governed by the secret counsel and directed by the present hand of God and that God’s omnipotence is not the vain, idle possession of potency but the most vigilant, efficacious, and operative, “a power constantly exerted on every distinct and particular movement” (Inst. I, xvi. 3). “Whence we assert, that not only the heaven and the earth, and inanimate creatures, but also the deliberations and volitions of men, are so governed by His providence, as to be directed to the end appointed by it” (Inst. I, xvi. 8). ...
When we find this sovereignty coming to expression in the most unequivocal way even in those acts of subordinate agents where their moral responsibility is most intensely active in the perpetration of wrong, we can hardly go any farther in demonstrating the all-inclusiveness of it. ...
But just then we must ever remind ourselves that God contracts no defilement or criminality from such agency. He is just in all His ways and holy in all His works.

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These quotes are from Calvinist web sites, and teach that God is soveriegn, even over our will. This is the point of which I have contention. And it is basic Calvinist teaching. I believe that the only responcibilty for the state of the world falls on man, because the stewerdship of the planet is man's.

Legally if a boss knows of a crime comited by someone under him and allows it, then he is an accomplice, and just as guilty. The same holds true for God. But God is not the boss of every man. Because man's will is supreme over God's will on the earth, because God gave dominion over the earth to man.

SoldierofChrist said:

Take note, SnuP, that just because someone claims a certain belief that you cannot assume they are representing it correctly 100% of the time. I would suggest to you to actually study reformed theology rather than jumping to conclusions based on what a few people on a message board have said.

Trust me, there are true Calvinists and there are not. Those who hold to the Reformation will disagree with your statement that there are many differing Calvinist teachings. There is a group labeled "extreme Calvinists," however, that teach that since God sovereignly decrees who will attain salvation, then evangelism is not required. That is simply not true, in fact, Arminians may tend to do much less evangelism than do true Calvinists. That I believe is the major difference within "Calvinism."

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I never mentioned evangelism. But since you brought it up, if not every one is to be saved, then why would God ordain for you to waste half of your time, witnessing to people, whom God has ordained to perish?

Sorry if this is out of place here. I just have a question. The thought of Calvinism scares me. I mean, what if I was not predestined for salvation and this is only wishful hoping on my part and I am doing this in vain? If you are predestined then how do you know it? Thanks for any answers to this.

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If you are truly saved you will persevere to the end. You will know you are saved because the Bible tells you that whosoever believes on the name of Christ will not perish. I don't believe that anyone professing to be a Christian and "backslides" was ever saved to begin with. Jesus said that whomever the Father gives Him, no one will snatch them out of His hand. As believers we should have confidence in knowing that God's grace IS sufficient!

John 10


26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one."

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This passage should bring joy to Christ's followers, knowing that we are secure who believe in Him. You know you are saved because you believe God's Word when it says that you are through Christ. This is not to say that in your faith you go up and down and have times where God seems distant.. that's a natural part of life. However, if you abandon God altogether and "reject" the Christian faith, you weren't saved to begin with, because if you were truly saved you wouldn't have ever rejected the gospel.

Legally if a boss knows of a crime comited by someone under him and allows it, then he is an accomplice, and just as guilty. The same holds true for God. But God is not the boss of every man. Because man's will is supreme over God's will on the earth, because God gave dominion over the earth to man.

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Man's will is supreme over God's will? Is this in the Bible?

SoldierofChrist said:

If you are truly saved you will persevere to the end. You will know you are saved because the Bible tells you that whosoever believes on the name of Christ will not perish. I don't believe that anyone professing to be a Christian and "backslides" was ever saved to begin with. Jesus said that whomever the Father gives Him, no one will snatch them out of His hand. As believers we should have confidence in knowing that God's grace IS sufficient!



This passage should bring joy to Christ's followers, knowing that we are secure who believe in Him. You know you are saved because you believe God's Word when it says that you are through Christ. This is not to say that in your faith you go up and down and have times where God seems distant.. that's a natural part of life. However, if you abandon God altogether and "reject" the Christian faith, you weren't saved to begin with, because if you were truly saved you wouldn't have ever rejected the gospel.

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That only applies if a person believe in once saved always saved. Another way of looking at it is, if you endure until the end, then you will be saved. The problem that I see with OSAS, is that people who obviously display power and athority and a relationship with God, when they turn from Him, because of a hurt that they blame Him for, it could not be said that they were never saved. I have seen people who speak in tongues, with the annointing, turn their back on God, because of wrongs done to them.

Man's will is supreme over God's will? Is this in the Bible?

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yes

God gives authority to man over all creation in Genesis. And in addition, you never find an act of God in scripture without there first being a man that agrees with God to perform His will. And then you see the scripture for telling the end of time coming with Christ placing everything back under His feet and then turning the authority back over to God.

If God always had the supreme authority on the earth, then why does Jesus need to give it back to Him, after Jesus defeats His enemies.

Additionally, those men of God who turn their back on Him, as I described earier, would never have done so if they had know that it wasn't God's fault, since God's will does not rule the planet, man's does.

Well, I must say that that Defender of the Faith 777 has really got his head on straight. And he sounds really cool. Like, unbelievably cool. I wonder what happened to him...

LOL! jk of course.



I bet he's real humble too....

That only applies if a person believe in once saved always saved. Another way of looking at it is, if you endure until the end, then you will be saved. The problem that I see with OSAS, is that people who obviously display power and athority and a relationship with God, when they turn from Him, because of a hurt that they blame Him for, it could not be said that they were never saved. I have seen people who speak in tongues, with the annointing, turn their back on God, because of wrongs done to them.

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Well considering I disagree that speaking in tongues is still something that is done today, then I don't see how doing such a thing would make your salvation sure. Apart from the individual, only God knows who will and who will not be saved. Someone can go through all the motions,... ie: tithing, praying "spiritually", knowing the Bible inside and out, etc... but if they don't believe in the name of Christ, trusting in God's grace alone for salvation apart from works, then they were never saved. It doesn't matter how "spiritual" one appears.

yes

God gives authority to man over all creation in Genesis. And in addition, you never find an act of God in scripture without there first being a man that agrees with God to perform His will. And then you see the scripture for telling the end of time coming with Christ placing everything back under His feet and then turning the authority back over to God.

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Well since Christ is God, I don't see how your argument is cogent. Furthermore, God giving man authority over creation does not make him all the sudden higher than God, because, essentially, that's what you are saying. Man's will is more important, or worthy, than God's. That's hardly a biblical assertion.

You see this is the difference between biblical Christianity and the rest of the world's religion's. Buddhism, Hinduism, Mormonism, Catholicism, etc.. are man-centered. It's called semi-pelagianism, a man-centered and not God-centered religion. That's the difference between "Arminians" and "Calvinists."

Your assertion that God has to ask man for permission to accomplish His will is neither biblical nor logical in the end. It no longer becomes God's "will" if man will not allow Him to accomplish it. Such is a fallacious and utterly false argument.

If God always had the supreme authority on the earth, then why does Jesus need to give it back to Him, after Jesus defeats His enemies.

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Jesus is God. I hardly see that as a valid comparison to man. Are you equating man with Jesus and man with God? That's heresy. I hope that's not what you are doing.

Additionally, those men of God who turn their back on Him, as I described earier, would never have done so if they had know that it wasn't God's fault, since God's will does not rule the planet, man's does.

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Where do you get this? Clearly not from the Scriptures because man's will is in bondage to sin. Is man's will superior to God's in this respect? I hardly think so. Man asks for God's permission to do things? Your God seems to be a very weak God indeed.

God is clearly sovereign over man's will according to the Scriptures:

1. Genesis 20:6 - Abimelech and Sara
2. Exodus 34:24
3. Deuteronomy 2:30
4. Joshua 11:19,20
5. Ezra 1:1-2, 7:27
6. Isaiah 10:5-7
7. Proverbs 16:33, 19:21, 20:24,21:1
8. Psalm 135:6
9. Others: Job 14:5, Psalm 65:4, 139:16, Proverbs 16:33, 19:21, 20:24, 21:1, Isaiah 10:5-7, 43:12-13, 45:7, 46:9-10, Jeremiah 1:4-5, Matthew 24:31, 25:34, John 15:19, Acts 4:28, 10:41, 13:48, 17:26, I Thess. 5:9, 2 Timothy 2:10 etc. and etc.