Where do people come up with Gog not being Antichrist?

[Jamdoc]

Ezekiel 38

17 Thus saith the Lord God; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them?

I'm failing to see where God ever warned about a "penultimate dictator prior to the 7 year tribulation" that many people's view of Gog and Magog revolves around.

I see warnings about just antichrist in particular.

There is also the finality of the passage, Ezekiel 39:

7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, the Holy One in Israel.

So according to the Gog/Magog is before the 70th week view.. you have this miraculous victory by God.. which God says His name won't be polluted any more and the heathen would know Him.
But then you turn around and have Antichrist the most blasphemous person to ever exist? Doesn't jive.
There is also language in the passage that is very much like Armageddon, a feast for the carrion birds, and being slain in the mountains and the open plain, along with an Earthquake that seems to be the same one as in Revelation 16.

So my question is... where did this idea of a pretrib Gog and Magog battle come from? From the text itself.. it sounds like Armageddon to me. I know the identifying Magog as Russia and Gog as like, Putin, comes from when the Soviet Union was established, to you know, make our enemies the enemies in the bible.. but
where did the idea that Gog wasn't just.. Antichrist come from?
Someone taught it, because it doesn't come from the text.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Sounds like a thread for the pre-trib safe house, the premise itself sounds wrong unless you're pre-trib. Beyond that, the idea that Gog is the antichrist, is a new spin on it .. if memory serves.

 

[Douggg]

So my question is... where did this idea of a pretrib Gog and Magog battle come from? From the text itself.. it sounds like Armageddon to me. I know the identifying Magog as Russia and Gog as like, Putin, comes from when the Soviet Union was established, to you know, make our enemies the enemies in the bible.. but
where did the idea that Gog wasn't just.. Antichrist come from?
Someone taught it, because it doesn't come from the text.

The person of the Antichrist function is that of being the King of Israel - but coming in his own name, a way of saying that God did not send him to be their king. He will be a false messiah that the Jews will mistakenly embrace... until he turns against him.

In John 5:43, he is the another that Jesus taught they would receive (to be their King implied).

In Mark 15:32, "Christ the King of Israel". So "Anti" Christ will be someone (other than Jesus) who becomes the King of Israel instead of and against Jesus the True Christ.

In John 4:25, Christ means messiah.

-----------------------------------------

Gog, on the other hand, is anything but a messiah to Israel.

 

[Jamdoc]

Sounds like a thread for the pre-trib safe house, the premise itself sounds wrong unless you're pre-trib. Beyond that, the idea that Gog is the antichrist, is a new spin on it .. if memory serves.

how's it a new spin? Ezekiel 38:17 seems to point right at it, along with all the parallels to Revelation 16 and 19.

 

[Jamdoc]

The person of the Antichrist function is that of being the King of Israel - but coming in his own name, a way of saying that God did not send him to be their king. He will be a false messiah that the Jews will mistakenly embrace... until he turns against him.

In John 5:43, he is the another that Jesus taught they would receive (to be their King implied).

In Mark 15:32, "Christ the King of Israel". So "Anti" Christ will be someone (other than Jesus) who becomes the King of Israel instead of and against Jesus the True Christ.

In John 4:25, Christ means messiah.

-----------------------------------------

Gog, on the other hand, is anything but a messiah to Israel.

But it fits in with Daniel 11, Antichrist is the vile man that replaces the King of the North.
and he is not received just out of the blue. Daniel 11 has him making a league with Israel, but then breaking it, and invading, that's consistent in other parts of the bible as well, that's Daniel 9 and also Luke 21 where Jerusalem is surrounded by armies. Antichrist invades, and takes over Jerusalem, divides the land, and declares himself God in the temple and stops the daily sacrifices.

So yes, Antichrist and Gog do basically the same things, just Ezekiel 38 and 39 focus on the invasion aspect without focusing on the covenant that preceded. It makes sense of why Sheba and Dedan protest the invasion.. because Antichrist had made a covenant prior and breaks it.

 

[trophy33]

But it fits in with Daniel 11, Antichrist is the vile man that replaces the King of the North.
and he is not received just out of the blue. Daniel 11 has him making a league with Israel, but then breaking it, and invading, that's consistent in other parts of the bible as well, that's Daniel 9 and also Luke 21 where Jerusalem is surrounded by armies. Antichrist invades, and takes over Jerusalem, divides the land, and declares himself God in the temple and stops the daily sacrifices.

So yes, Antichrist and Gog do basically the same things, just Ezekiel 38 and 39 focus on the invasion aspect without focusing on the covenant that preceded. It makes sense of why Sheba and Dedan protest the invasion.. because Antichrist had made a covenant prior and breaks it.

The Roman general (and later also the Roman emperor) Titus.

 

[Douggg]

But it fits in with Daniel 11, Antichrist is the vile man that replaces the King of the North.
and he is not received just out of the blue. Daniel 11 has him making a league with Israel, but then breaking it, and invading, that's consistent in other parts of the bible as well, that's Daniel 9 and also Luke 21 where Jerusalem is surrounded by armies. Antichrist invades, and takes over Jerusalem, divides the land, and declares himself God in the temple and stops the daily sacrifices.

So yes, Antichrist and Gog do basically the same things, just Ezekiel 38 and 39 focus on the invasion aspect without focusing on the covenant that preceded. It makes sense of why Sheba and Dedan protest the invasion.. because Antichrist had made a covenant prior and breaks it.

Jamdoc, the end times in Daniel 11 begin in verse 36 with the king who claims to be greater than every god. It is the Antichrist person, but that person is no longer in the role of the Antichrist (phony King of Israel), but has become the beast.

There is a path that the Antichrist person follows on the way to his destruction.

Emerges out of the EU, as the little horn person. Then when Gog/Magog takes place, following it, as the prince who shall come, moves the EU army into the middle east on the premise of being peace keepers. At that time, the Jews will think he is the messiah, and the false prophet anoints him as the King of Israel - now the person is officially the Antichrist.

3 years go by, a downsized temple will have been built, and he goes into it, sits in the holy of Holies chamber, declaring himself to have achieved God-hood. Revealing himself as the man of sin - and not the messiah that Jews had intially believed. End of his time as the King of Israel - i.e. end of his time as the Antichrist.

God has him killed for his audacious act. And in disdain for the person, brings him back to life, in God's plan to also destroy Satan and his angel's mystical kingdom - of Babylon the Great - that is behind all of the evil in the world.

Once the person comes back to life, it begins his time as the beast. The kingdom of the beast will be the EU, as the ten EU kings hand their kingdom over to him to be dictator. Revelation 17:17.

Back to Daniel 11. verses 36-44. As the king in verse 36, the beast, he will be the king of the west (EU allies will include the U.S, and Canada). Near the end of the 7 years, he will be attacked from the south, then the north joins in, and the kings of the east - head toward him (located in Jerusalem). It will be a prelude to Armageddon to draw all of the armies of the world into the middle-east.

We are so close to all these things to start to happen, beginning with the emergence of the identity of the little horn person.

With the battles going on, suddenly the 6th seal even will occur, and the appearance of Jesus in heaven, sickle in hand, will terrify the kings of the earth. And Satan (who will be incarnating the speaking statue image on the temple mount, the A.o.D.), the beast, and the false prophet will convince them to make war on Jesus. And devise a plan to take half of Jerusalem as hostage.

At that time, as it says in Daniel 11:45, the beast will meet his end, between the seas, on the holy mount.

 

[Douggg]

@Jamdoc

Are there persons who could possibly be the Antichrist and the false prophet?

Yes, Zelensky, a great politician who is also militarily experienced with war with Gog (Russia), and Ukraine is on fast track to being a EU nation. And the Yanuka, a rabbi in Israel, drawing a lot of attention because of his knowledge including that of kabbalah, and has apparently being involved in some healing's - false prophet, maybe - who will anoint the prince who shall come - as the King of Israel messiah.

 

[trophy33]

@Jamdoc

Are there persons who could possibly be the Antichrist and the false prophet?

Yes, Zelensky, a great politician who is also militarily experienced with war with Gog (Russia), and Ukraine is on fast track to being a EU nation. And the Yanuka, a rabbi in Israel, drawing a lot of attention because of his knowledge including that of kabbalah, and has apparently being involved in some healing's - false prophet, maybe - who will anoint the prince who shall come - as the King of Israel messiah.

These wild speculations are becoming more and more weak.

 

[d taylor]

-
​

The antichrist is the false prophet an actual person. Gog and Magog is the rebellion made up of people (unbelievers) at the end of the 1000 rule of The Messiah. Which is quickly put to an end by God.

 

[3 Resurrections]

where did the idea that Gog wasn't just.. Antichrist come from?
Someone taught it, because it doesn't come from the text.

Gog WAS (past tense) one of the many antichrists that John said had emerged in the first century (1 John 2:18), but Gog was not "THE Antichrist" single individual who would attempt to exalt himself over all those other antichrists in the first century. That single "THE Antichrist" emerged at the beginning of Israel's rebellion against Rome in AD 66 for a very, very brief rise to power. Gog, on the other hand, emerged as a leader at the close of the rebellion against Rome - AD 69-70 to be exact - in the person of Simon bar Giora who managed to develop the largest army of all the would-be-Messiah leaders at the time.

The battle of Gog on the mountains of Israel prophesied by Ezekiel was going to be a CIVIL WAR - when "every man's sword shall be against his brother" (Ezekiel 38:21). Since this was a war that was going to come against the people of Israel, then this brother-against-brother conflict was going to be ISRAELITES FIGHTING AGAINST FELLOW ISRAELITES. This internal warfare between fellow Israelites is exactly what Christ during His earthly ministry had predicted for His people. This was fulfilled by the fervently nationalistic Zealot faction which had been steadily growing in size, even during Christ's days on earth. Christ had a converted Zealot even among His chosen 12 disciples, was crucified between two Zealots, and during His trial was traded for Barabbas, a Zealot leader who had done murder in a Zealot insurrection against Rome.

This prediction of a CIVIL WAR with Gog coming out of Israel is based on the LXX text of Balaam's prophecy in Numbers 24:5-9. Here, Balaam speaking under inspiration said about Israel, "How goodly are thy habitations, Jacob, and thy tents, ISRAEL! as shady groves, and as gardens by a river, and as tents which God pitched, and as cedars by the waters. There shall come a man out of his seed, and he shall rule over many nations; and the kingdom of GOG shall be exalted, and his kingdom shall be increased. God led him" (God led GOG) "out of Egypt; he has as it were the glory of a unicorn; he" (GOG) "shall consume the nations of his enemies, and he shall drain their marrow, and with his darts he shall shoot through the enemy. He" (GOG) "lay down, he rested as a lion, and as a young lion; who shall stir him up? they that bless thee are blessed, and they that curse thee are cursed."

Christ told His disciples in Mark 3:24 that, "If a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand". When the Zealots established the independent kingdom of Israel in AD 66 by casting off Israel's Roman governance, their competing Zealot leaders caused that independent kingdom to become "divided against itself", and they could not stand for long. From AD 66 until AD 70 was the duration of that kingdom before its desolation; destroyed ultimately because of its own internal warfare of brother against brother.

 

[eleos1954]

Ezekiel 38


I'm failing to see where God ever warned about a "penultimate dictator prior to the 7 year tribulation" that many people's view of Gog and Magog revolves around.

I see warnings about just antichrist in particular.

There is also the finality of the passage, Ezekiel 39:

So according to the Gog/Magog is before the 70th week view.. you have this miraculous victory by God.. which God says His name won't be polluted any more and the heathen would know Him.
But then you turn around and have Antichrist the most blasphemous person to ever exist? Doesn't jive.
There is also language in the passage that is very much like Armageddon, a feast for the carrion birds, and being slain in the mountains and the open plain, along with an Earthquake that seems to be the same one as in Revelation 16.

So my question is... where did this idea of a pretrib Gog and Magog battle come from? From the text itself.. it sounds like Armageddon to me. I know the identifying Magog as Russia and Gog as like, Putin, comes from when the Soviet Union was established, to you know, make our enemies the enemies in the bible.. but
where did the idea that Gog wasn't just.. Antichrist come from?
Someone taught it, because it doesn't come from the text.

Gog and Magog is the battle of Armageddon ... peoples beliefs about this vary because of thinking/belief when the Lord returns He will physically rule on planet earth .... this is not so. It is mainly driven by putting already fulfilled prophecy into the future (futurism). Futurism has been and still is widely taught within many of the christian denominations since around 1843 or so. All prophecy in relation to specific times have already been fulfilled. What we look at now are events (not specific times) that are taking place and are escalating and will escalate until His return. (1st resurrection happens) ... but this is not the full end.

The battle of Armageddon (gog and magog) happens at the 2nd resurrection. This is the final battle between God and satan. The wicked dead are resurrected ..... the New Jerusalem that is in heaven descends from heaven ... and satan and his minions and the wicked dead attack the city (New Jerusalem). So it's not about modern day Jerusalem as many think.

Revelation 21

We must remember what the final battle is truly about .... it's not about this or that earthly kingdom(s) .... it's between God and satan ...
and we know of course that God prevails .... AMEN! Thank you Jesus. God is fully capable and will bring this to a final end (for eternity) ..... he don't need earthlings to fight the final battle. Until He returns there will be wars and rumors of wars sure ... but the final battle that ends everything for eternity is His.

 

[DavidPT]

From the text itself.. it sounds like Armageddon to me.

Per your view of things, what follows after Armageddon? The reason I ask, we have to factor in the aftermath involving Ezekiel 39:9-16. Obviously, that would mean post Armageddon. Thus why I asked you, what follows after Armageddon? Meaning, per your view of things, is it the thousand years that follow after Armageddon, or are we still in this present age following Armageddon, in order to fulfill the aftermath recorded in Ezekiel 39:9-16?

The way interpreters, such as @Douggg, reasons this aftermath, it has to be meaning before the 70th week in order to fit a 7 year time period before Christ returns. But that's not the only option, though. This 7 years required for this aftermath, it could be involving the first 7 years of the thousand years. Which then presents a problem for a view, such as Amil. Amil has no 7 years where this can fit following Armageddon unless Amils think Armageddon is not connected with Christ's 2nd coming, that Armageddon can happen first, and that it can still be years after that when the 2nd coming actually happens. Except I don't know of any Amils who might be reasoning some of these things along those lines.

Since I don't agree with @Douggg interpretation of Ezekiel 39:9-16, nor am I an Amil, and that neither do you agree with @Douggg interpretation of Ezekiel 39:9-16, nor are you an Amil, therefore, placing the 7 years post Christ's return is not problematic for us since there is a period of time this can fit, I then have to wonder, have you, like I have, concluded that Ezekiel 39:9-16 has to logically fit the first 7 years of the thousand years, or do you perhaps have another solution?

 

[Douggg]

Gog WAS (past tense) one of the many antichrists that John said had emerged in the first century (1 John 2:18), but Gog was not "THE Antichrist" single individual who would attempt to exalt himself over all those other antichrists in the first century. That single "THE Antichrist" emerged at the beginning of Israel's rebellion against Rome in AD 66 for a very, very brief rise to power. Gog, on the other hand, emerged as a leader at the close of the rebellion against Rome - AD 69-70 to be exact - in the person of Simon bar Giora who managed to develop the largest army of all the would-be-Messiah leaders at the time.

The battle of Gog on the mountains of Israel prophesied by Ezekiel was going to be a CIVIL WAR - when "every man's sword shall be against his brother" (Ezekiel 39:21). Since this was a war that was going to come against the people of Israel, then this brother-against-brother conflict was going to be ISRAELITES FIGHTING AGAINST FELLOW ISRAELITES. This internal warfare between fellow Israelites is exactly what Christ during His earthly ministry had predicted for His people. This was fulfilled by the fervently nationalistic Zealot faction which had been steadily growing in size, even during Christ's days on earth. Christ had a converted Zealot even among His chosen 12 disciples, was crucified between two Zealots, and during His trial was traded for Barabbas, a Zealot leader who had done murder in a Zealot insurrection against Rome.

This prediction of a CIVIL WAR with Gog coming out of Israel is based on the LXX text of Balaam's prophecy in Numbers 24:5-9. Here, Balaam speaking under inspiration said about Israel, "How goodly are thy habitations, Jacob, and thy tents, ISRAEL! as shady groves, and as gardens by a river, and as tents which God pitched, and as cedars by the waters. There shall come a man out of his seed, and he shall rule over many nations; and the kingdom of GOG shall be exalted, and his kingdom shall be increased. God led him" (God led GOG) "out of Egypt; he has as it were the glory of a unicorn; he" (GOG) "shall consume the nations of his enemies, and he shall drain their marrow, and with his darts he shall shoot through the enemy. He" (GOG) "lay down, he rested as a lion, and as a young lion; who shall stir him up? they that bless thee are blessed, and they that curse thee are cursed."

Christ told His disciples in Mark 3:24 that, "If a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand". When the Zealots established the independent kingdom of Israel in AD 66 by casting off Israel's Roman governance, their competing Zealot leaders caused that independent kingdom to become "divided against itself", and they could not stand for long. From AD 66 until AD 70 was the duration of that kingdom before its desolation; destroyed ultimately because of its own internal warfare of brother against brother.

The Gog/Magog event of Ezekiel 38-39 is time of the end, latter days, latter years. Ezekiel 38:8. Ezekiel 38:16.

Among Gog's allies will be Libya, Persia (Iran), Ethiopia. Ezekiel 38:5.

 

[DavidPT]

Gog and Magog is the battle of Armageddon ... peoples beliefs about this vary because of thinking/belief when the Lord returns He will physically rule on planet earth .... this is not so. It is mainly driven by putting already fulfilled prophecy into the future (futurism). Futurism has been and still is widely taught within many of the christian denominations since around 1843 or so. All prophecy in relation to specific times have already been fulfilled. What we look at now are events (not specific times) that are taking place and are escalating and will escalate until His return. (1st resurrection happens) ... but this is not the full end.

The battle of Armageddon (gog and magog) happens at the 2nd resurrection. This is the final battle between God and satan. The wicked dead are resurrected ..... the New Jerusalem that is in heaven descends from heaven ... and satan and his minions and the wicked dead attack the city (New Jerusalem). So it's not about modern day Jerusalem as many think.

Revelation 21

We must remember what the final battle is truly about .... it's not about this or that earthly kingdom(s) .... it's between God and satan ...
and we know of course that God prevails .... AMEN! Thank you Jesus. God is fully capable and will bring this to a final end (for eternity) ..... he don't need earthlings to fight the final battle. Until He returns there will be wars and rumors of wars sure ... but the final battle that ends everything for eternity is His.

Regardless when or what one thinks Ezekiel 38-39 is involving, we simply can't ignore Ezekiel 39:9-16, as if those verses are irrelevant, as if those verses are not even recorded in ch 39 or something, because, clearly, those verses, regardless what it might look like when being fulfilled, are meaning the aftermath and that they involve 7 years that have to fit somewhere. Any view that ignores Ezekiel 39:9-16 altogether or tries to explain them away, is not worthy of entertaining, IMO, anyway.

 

[DavidPT]

The battle of Gog on the mountains of Israel prophesied by Ezekiel was going to be a CIVIL WAR - when "every man's sword shall be against his brother" (Ezekiel 39:21).

But how do you explain the following as well since it appears to be describing events similar to what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah, except nothing in the past 2000 years could possibly be involving something such as what Sodom and Gomorrah was involving?


Ezekiel 38:22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.


And who does the text plainly say that does these things? God Himself, since that is who the pronouns "I' in that verse are pertaining to. Where does history record during the past 2000 years that God Himself did those things involving verse 22?

 

[Douggg]

Per your view of things, what follows after Armageddon? The reason I ask, we have to factor in the aftermath involving Ezekiel 39:9-16. Obviously, that would mean post Armageddon. Thus why I asked you, what follows after Armageddon? Meaning, per your view of things, is it the thousand years that follow after Armageddon, or are we still in this present age following Armageddon, in order to fulfill the aftermath recorded in Ezekiel 39:9-16?

The way interpreters, such as @Douggg, reasons this aftermath, it has to be meaning before the 70th week in order to fit a 7 year time period before Christ returns. But that's not the only option, though. This 7 years required for this aftermath, it could be involving the first 7 years of the thousand years. Which then presents a problem for a view, such as Amil. Amil has no 7 years where this can fit following Armageddon unless Amils think Armageddon is not connected with Christ's 2nd coming, that Armageddon can happen first, and that it can still be years after that when the 2nd coming actually happens. Except I don't know of any Amils who might be reasoning some of these things along those lines.

Since I don't agree with @Douggg interpretation of Ezekiel 39:9-16, nor am I an Amil, and that neither do you agree with @Douggg interpretation of Ezekiel 39:9-16, nor are you an Amil, therefore, placing the 7 years post Christ's return is not problematic for us since there is a period of time this can fit, I then have to wonder, have you, like I have, concluded that Ezekiel 39:9-16 has to logically fit the first 7 years of the thousand years, or do you perhaps have another solution?

David, the Gog/Magog event cannot be as the first 7 years of the thousand years, because Jesus will have just destroyed all the armies of the world who will try to make war against Him - before the thousand years begin.

 

[Jamdoc]

The Roman general (and later also the Roman emperor) Titus.

No not preterism. I should have put futurist only..

 

[trophy33]

No not preterism. I should have put futurist only..

Maybe you should have, if you want to put aside the obvious fulfillment from the past and still speculate about it in the future, while the time frame laid by Christ and apostles (their generation) is long gone.

 

[DavidPT]

David, the Gog/Magog event cannot be as the first 7 years of the thousand years, because Jesus will have just destroyed all the armies of the world who will try to make war against Him - before the thousand years begin.

Douggg, I'm only saying that in regards to the aftermath involving Ezekiel 39:9-16. Which would mean that everything else prior to that, would be occurring in the end of this present age. The reason why, if Ezekiel 38-39 is involving the battle of Armageddon like some of tend to conclude, obviously Armageddon pertains to this present age, and that most of us see it involving Christ's second coming at some point during it. Which then means that Ezekiel 39:9-16 have to follow that. And if Ezekiel 38-39 involves Armageddon, meaning both chapters, and that Armageddon involves Christ's second coming, and that Ezekiel 39-9-16 have to follow all of that, how can one not conclude, per that scenario, that this logically places the 7 years involving the aftermath, at the beginning of the thousand years?

Even though you disagree, let's assume you agreed instead. What would you be concluding via a scenario like that, if not what I am concluding via a scenario like that? What comes after Armageddon? More years in this same present age? Or a thousand years in the beginning of a new age? Unless it's the former, this indicates per a scenario like this that Ezekiel 39:9-16 have to fit the latter since these are the only two options since I don't see these 7 years not meaning literal years, being an option. All that is doing is trying to explain these 7 years away, thus not explaining them instead.

Your solution is, two different battles. The aftermath per Ezekiel 39:9-16 involves the first battle not the 2nd battle. Except, where your theory falls apart, Ezekiel 38-39 is only involving one battle not two different battles instead. Therefore, that theory is not valid since it requires another battle Ezekiel 38-39 knows nothing about.