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Where do people come up with Gog not being Antichrist?

Douggg

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I meant both.
Daniel 11 refers back to Daniel 8.
The popular view is that Daniel 8 was about Alexander, and Daniel 11 was about the aftermath of Alexander's death and divided empire.
Part of Daniel 8 refers to Alexander. But the vision involving little horn's transgression of desolation in Daniel 8 is said to be time of the end in the text - read Daniel 8:13. then Daniel 8:17 - referring to the vision Daniel had of the little horn person.

The little horn person comes from north and west of Israel, Daniel 8:9
 
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Douggg

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So.. what we have, is Antichrist establishing peace with Israel, and a period of time where Israel is protected and at peace, but then he turns against them and invades them.
The confirming of the covenant for 7 years in Daniel 9:27 is not a peace agreement.

The covenant is the Mt. Sinai covenant. Which Moses made it a requirement for the leaders of Israel to confirm on a 7 year cycle. Deuteronomy 31:9-13.

Following Gog/Magog, the Antichrist in his role as the King of Israel thought- to- be messiah will have the law read to the nation from the temple mount. Something that can't be done in the present situation because of the Muslim presence on the temple mount.

The transgression of desolation (Daniel 8:12-13) is the transgression of the Mt. Sinai covenant, and will be the 2Thessalonians2:4 act.
 
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Douggg

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well anyway, the first half is actually peace and safety, peace and security. There is a covenant made for 7 years, and mid way through, Antichrist breaks it.
During the first half, the world will be saying peace and safety - because it will be thinking it has entered the messianic age.... with the Antichrist being the thought-to-be messiah.
 
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Jamdoc

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GOG is not antichrist. GOG is Russian federation and Islamic brotherhood, documentation, Ezekiel chapter 38. Second thessalonians chapter 2. The son of perdition is satan, he's antichrist. Micah 1:12. For the inhabitant of Maroth waited carefully for good : but evil came down from the Lord unto the gate of Jerusalem. The word evil is Calamity. Maroth means, waited carefully. This is actually bitter town. Essentially speaking, God is using satan as antichrist to test the world near future. Satan will come 6th trump to Jerusalem and claim to be God. 1:14. Therefore shalt thou give presents to MORESHETH GATH ; the houses of ACHZIB shall be lie to the kings of Israel. Lot of churches are falling in line with the world council of churches. Teaching traditions of men and false doctrine. People are being prepared for antichrist. Their biblically illiterate, they have no defense. At the 6th trump, satan as antichrist will be in Jerusalem, 5 month period. At the end of antichrist reign, Russia and Islamic brotherhood will attack America through Alaska and God will destroy them at Canadian mountains. Armageddon is in the valley of ELAH, near Jerusalem. Antichrist gathers armys, to attempt to break God's spirit. It won't work. Jesus has His Election. The saint's, Election, won't worship antichrist. I documented this, and explained this.
See none of that first few sentence.. is backed by scripture. Where do you get that from? Aside from being taught it by men?
You present these things as facts but without scripture actually saying it. You insert people groups not specifically mentioned by the bible.
 
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BillCody

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Here is the way I see it happening.

During the first half, the world will be saying peace and safety - because it will be thinking it has entered the muslim messianic age.... with the Antichrist being the thought-to-be messiah.

And as far as the Gog/Magog war, trying to make it fit now or in the tribulation period is throwing your timelines off.
 
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Jamdoc

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Why would Ezekiel 38:17 disagree with anything I wrote?

pre-trib is a rapture timing view. It is actually a misnomer, because it actually means pre-70th week. However, the entire 70th week is not tribulation. Regardless, it has no bearing on the timing of Gog/Magog.
Most pretribulationists hold that Gog/Magog takes place before the 70th week.
and they have no scripture to determine that, it's just been taught to them.

as for Ezekiel 38:17, God says that Gog is who He warned Israel about.
but God warned about Antichrist through the prophets, not about some other dictator.
The confirming of the covenant for 7 years in Daniel 9:27 is not a peace agreement.
Isaiah 28 refers to a covenant with death, that is broken after Israel enters into it. Antichrist confirms a covenant and breaks it.
The covenant is the Mt. Sinai covenant. Which Moses made it a requirement for the leaders of Israel to confirm on a 7 year cycle. Deuteronomy 31:9-13.
Well I would think Isaiah 28's covenant with death wasn't the Mt Sinai covenant.
Following Gog/Magog, the Antichrist in his role as the King of Israel thought- to- be messiah will have the law read to the nation from the temple mount. Something that can't be done in the present situation because of the Muslim presence on the temple mount.

The transgression of desolation (Daniel 8:12-13) is the transgression of the Mt. Sinai covenant, and will be the 2Thessalonians2:4 act.
Other parts of scripture treat Antichrist as an invader, namely Daniel, and Micah referring to him as the Assyrian. He enters Jerusalem conquering it.
Luke 21 confirms this with Jerusalem surrounded by armies where in other versions of the Discourse it is the Abomination of Desolation, meaning that the Abomination of Desolation is accompanied by a military conquest of Jerusalem.
During the first half, the world will be saying peace and safety - because it will be thinking it has entered the messianic age.... with the Antichrist being the thought-to-be messiah.
Scripture for that? Because He comes in as a conquering invader. There are false messiahs, multiple, that lead into the end time, but Antichrist in particular actually comes into Jerusalem as an invader, see Daniel 11, Micah 5, Luke 21..
 
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Jamdoc

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Here is the way I see it happening.

During the first half, the world will be saying peace and safety - because it will be thinking it has entered the muslim messianic age.... with the Antichrist being the thought-to-be messiah.

And as far as the Gog/Magog war, trying to make it fit now or in the tribulation period is throwing your timelines off.
I'm fitting it there because God says that Gog is who He warned Israel about through the prophets and scriptures.
and those warn about Antichrist.
It's Ezekiel 38:17.
 
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Douggg

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as for Ezekiel 38:17, God says that Gog is who He warned Israel about.
but God warned about Antichrist through the prophets, not about some other dictator.
The prince who shall come confirms the covenant with many in Daniel 9:27, starting the 7 year 70th week - right?

Differently, Gog attacks Israel, not confirms the covenant, which then after Gog's destruction is followed by 7 years.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Revelation is like a clearing house for Old Testament prophecy.. there's so much Old Testament referenced in it it's really quite astounding.
Similar, but not the same.

The difference between metaphor and allegory.

Besides, wasn't your thesis pretrib in nature?

The two 3.5 times of daniel are manifested in Daniel by the two witnesses preaching for 3.5 years, and laying dead without burial for 3.5 days.

However, pretrib has this other notion that the two 3.5 times are 7 years, and go on about the antichrist and israel.

So, even if it was a direct reference, why pretrib?
 
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DavidPT

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During the first half, the world will be saying peace and safety - because it will be thinking it has entered the messianic age.... with the Antichrist being the thought-to-be messiah.


Except that contradicts when the day of the Lord begins, since that would mean the day of the Lord begins at the beginning of great tribulation. Except it begins after great tribulation during the 6th seal, not during great tribulation instead. Great tribulation has zero to do with God's wrath. It has zero to do with the day of the Lord, which is God's wrath. All of the following are meaning when the day of the Lord commences.

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken

Nothing I have submitted is meaning during great tribulation. It is meaning after great tribulation. The day of the Lord, for instance, involves darkness, exactly what all these passages above are depicting. Even though those things are not meaning in a literal sense, what should one assume might happen if the sun were literally darkened, that the moon literally did not give her light, and that the stars in heaven literally fell? Would it not equal what the following is depicting?

Amos 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light
19 As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him.
20 Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it ?

the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light--- the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall. Good luck in anyone convincing some of us that things such as---the sun shall be darkened, that this is not describing something such as this---is darkness, and not light

It can't get any clearer than this. The day of the Lord is after great tribulation, not during great tribulation, since the day of the Lord is meaning the 6th seal, and that the 6th seal is after great tribulation.

Has anyone else noticed that Pretribbers and Preterists have a lot in common involving some of the Discourse? Both apply the day of the Lord to great tribulation. Both apply great tribulation specifically to unbelieving Jews. Both have great tribulation involving a literal brick and mortar temple in the literal city Jerusalem. Both views contradict what Revelation 7:9 and Revelation 7:14 record.
 
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DavidPT

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I'm fitting it there because God says that Gog is who He warned Israel about through the prophets and scriptures.
and those warn about Antichrist.
It's Ezekiel 38:17.
In your view then, since you have the AC mainly menacing Israel, how is it that the NT has the AC mainly menacing the church, keeping in mind that the church is global? In Revelation 13:7, who is it that you take the saints to be meaning? These are the ones on the beast's radar, not unbelieving Jews living in Israel.

You and I might have to face it. God might be doing multiple different things simultaneously rather than all of these things involving the exact same people, the exact same events like you and I are apparently thinking. Even if they are not involving the same events, the same people, they can still end at the same time. This doesn't mean we need to apply Ezekiel 38-39 like Pretribbers do, that there are two battles years apart.
 
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Jamdoc

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In your view then, since you have the AC mainly menacing Israel, how is it that the NT has the AC mainly menacing the church, keeping in mind that the church is global? In Revelation 13:7, who is it that you take the saints to be meaning? These are the ones on the beast's radar, not unbelieving Jews living in Israel.

You and I might have to face it. God might be doing multiple different things simultaneously rather than all of these things involving the exact same people, the exact same events like you and I are apparently thinking. Even if they are not involving the same events, the same people, they can still end at the same time. This doesn't mean we need to apply Ezekiel 38-39 like Pretribbers do, that there are two battles years apart.
as I explained earlier, it's both. Antichrist first goes after the woman (Israel), but when God protects them, he turns on Christians. That's Revelation 12.
 
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Jamdoc

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Similar, but not the same.

The difference between metaphor and allegory.

Besides, wasn't your thesis pretrib in nature?

The two 3.5 times of daniel are manifested in Daniel by the two witnesses preaching for 3.5 years, and laying dead without burial for 3.5 days.

However, pretrib has this other notion that the two 3.5 times are 7 years, and go on about the antichrist and israel.

So, even if it was a direct reference, why pretrib?
No, I'm not pre-trib.

what I'm doing is questioning a particular teaching I've heard, mostly from pre-trib rapture believers that the war of gog and magog is also before the 70th week, and that in fact, Gog refers to Putin and Magog is Russia. I see no evidence for any of that in scripture so I wonder where it comes from.
There are people who right now as the war is going on in Ukraine, believe we shouldn't even oppose Russia at all because Russia is "destined" to win, they claim Russia is in bible prophecy, and we are not so they must single handedly be destroyed by them so we should just roll over and let them do whatever they want.
It's eisegesis taken to the worst extent in my eyes.

They never think that the bible doesn't actually mention Russia, and Magog in Ezekiel's day was in Turkey, they rely on a teaching that the Magog people migrated to Russia, or they believe that while 596 times in the bible "Rosh" means "head" or "chief", you know the thing that has primacy, but these other 2 times it means "Russia", and even if it DID mean Russia it doesn't necessarily mean the current nation. Leadership can change, an entire government can collapse and the country can be invaded and conquered over time. It's the land mass that's what's referred to not a specific ethnicity.

They just think "well Putin is Gog of Magog so we should just let him do whatever he wants because we know he's gonna win until God destroys him, but the Ukrainians should just roll over and die because he wills it"
 
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Jamdoc

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The prince who shall come confirms the covenant with many in Daniel 9:27, starting the 7 year 70th week - right?

Differently, Gog attacks Israel, not confirms the covenant, which then after Gog's destruction is followed by 7 years.

Here's where you have your error.
and that is that Antichrist confirms a covenant for 7 years and then 3.5 years into it he violates it and invades Jerusalem

So what Ezekiel 38 would be referring to, is that invasion 3.5 years in
 
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Douggg

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Here's where you have your error.
and that is that Antichrist confirms a covenant for 7 years and then 3.5 years into it he violates it and invades Jerusalem

So what Ezekiel 38 would be referring to, is that invasion 3.5 years in
The Antichrist does not invade Israel. He will be living in Israel, Jerusalem, the Jews thinking he is the messiah.

Three years, thereabouts, from the confirming of the Mt. Sinai covenant by have the law read to the nation, the Antichrist will commit the transgression of desolation act.

The Antichrist's armies will already be in Israel and the middle east countries acting as so-called peace keepers.

So he does not have to invade Israel, because his armies will already be in the region following Gog/Magog.

Daniel 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Jamdoc, do you see that - "and he shall magnify himself in his heart"? That is when he begins thinking he has achieved God-hood.
 
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Douggg

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Except that contradicts when the day of the Lord begins, since that would mean the day of the Lord begins at the beginning of great tribulation.
The day of the Lord begins when the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood. It will shatter the peace and safety illusion of the false messianic age.

The great tribulation begins not too long afterward. After the Antichrist is killed, then brought back to life as the beast. And the AoD statue image of him made and placed on the temple mount.


It is easy to keep straight if you remember...

1. the transgression of desolation act triggers the Day of the Lord.

2. the abomination of desolation statue image triggers the great tribulation.






ratpure window 8.jpg
 
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Douggg

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Nothing I have submitted is meaning during great tribulation. It is meaning after great tribulation.
David, this chart shows the basics.

The great tribulation lasts 1335 days and the tribulation of those days is 90% of it.

1335 days and 1290 days - Daniel 12:11-12, measured from the time the abomination of desolation is setup.

During the 45 day difference, the armies of the world will gather at Armageddon to make war on Jesus.

the basics.jpg
 
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TribulationSigns

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David, this chart shows the basics.
View attachment 329927

There are so many errors in the above chart. The 70th week as nothing to do with antichrist or 7 years tribulation

In Daniel 9:27, the Prince, according to context, has ALREADY confirmed the Covenant with His Blood/death. Scripture said so:

Heb 9:14-17
(14) How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
(15) And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
(16) For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
(17) For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

It was the Prince of peace who established the New Covenant Church, took away the sin of His people and ended their warfare? How many times does God's Word have to testify to this before you accept it as TRUTH?!?
Heb 8:9-12
(9) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
(10) For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
(11) And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
(12) For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

You keep presenting Scriptures that are fulfilled, while ignoring God's word that He has already done all this. Moreover, you present this scripture purporting a so-called "seven year" tribulation period, but the Scripture itself does not at all "say" that the tribulation period will be seven years, nor that this one week in which the Covenant is confirmed (literally, made strong), is the great tribulation period. No where! So it's all your private interpretation of the verse, not something the verse actually says.

Mat 24:21

(21) For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

So therefore your theory has to be incorrect. This manipulation of the Scriptures by some authors is typical of both Dispensationalism and Premillennialism in general. Both systems of interpretation "read things" into the scriptures that are not actually there, and then make claims that their's is a literalist system.

Can you give us even one single Scripture that says that the great tribulation period lasts for 7 years? That's not from the inerrant authority of the Word, that's your personal interpretation of the word. In other words, SPECULATIONS! That is what your charts are all based on! Or can you give us even one Scripture that says the believers will be taken out of the world before the Great Tribulation? Again, not a private interpretation, which some Theologians claim "may mean that," but any actual scripture that says that the church cannot go through the Great Tribulation and must, or will, be raptured before it starts?

Mat 24:15
(15) When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

The real question is, do YOU understand what the verse talks about? What holy place is this? How can they both be in the world and see the great tribulation, and HAVE already been taken out of the world before it? On the contrary, God informs us that not only will the saints be here, but they should be aware that when they "see" the abomination of desolation, they are to flee to the mountains. So from the inerrant authority of the Scriptures, it is absurd to think that the saints will have been raptured because God didn't want them to go through this tribulation that you believe is "wrath."

Therefore we understand that this is either your interpretation or the thoughts of your teachers. But it is not the actual word of God. Do you know of any Scripture that says people are going to be physically martyred by the millions in the great tribulation? ..I've searched the Scriptures for years and I can't come up with such a declaration. So this begs the question, where did you get that number? God's word is what we must look to for doctrine, correction and our instruction in what is the great tribulation. It is not Dr. Dave Breese's book.
2Ti 3:16-17
(16) All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
(17) That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

If we are to be perfect before God, we must look to His Holy word alone, and it will thoroughly equip us to know what is the truth so that we will follow the His doctrines, and eschew the words and deceptions of men. We have to keep the word perfectly clear before us, that we know the difference between our own interpretations, and God's word itself. When we faithfully bear witness to God's word so that we can quote it word for word, then we know we have truth. When we do not, we have only the words, ideas and imaginations of man's heart.

Back to your chart. I do not see anywhere in Scripture that declared the consummation when Christ return will be 2,520th day. That is your false interpretation without Scripture support. You added that imaginary number yourself. The truth is the consummation will be 1,335th day.

Dan 9:27
(27) And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Dan 12:11-12

(11) And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
(12) Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

The final 70th week that Christ confirmed at the Cross will be for the whole New COVENANT church with 1,260, 1,290, and 1,335 symbolic days. The verse said nothing of sort about some evil man confirming a 7 years peace treaty with the rebuilding of the third physical temple. That is a man-made fantasy. Instead, God is talking about His covenant with His people, Covenant Israel. It is between God and His people, per Daniel 9:24, not some third-party evil man you tried to apply to verse 24 instead of Christ. Read the context, man!

And no Gog is not your antichrist nor a physical war in the Middle East. IT is a spiritual warfare:

Rev 20:8-9
(8) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
(9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

The beloved city is SPIRITUAL Jersualem, the CHURCH, period. This is where the enemy is coming after all over the world (four quarters of the earth). It "IS" where the battle truly takes place. The fight against abomination standing in the holy place (church). Again, it all depends upon how we define God's Word, either "by" God's Word or by presumption in looking at some physical nations, battles, famines, and warfare. Your pick!
Again, the New Testament Jersrualem "IS" the church. What armies would encamp against her and surround her but those SOLIDERS SPIRITUALLY OF SATAN, just as they did at Christ's first advent (Zechariah 9:8-9). There were no literal/physical battles in Jersualem then, no literal armies then, and there are no literal/physical battles or armies against the Lord's house in the last days. Listen, our enemies are the false prophets and christs and all congregation people deceived by them. They are the ones who brought lying signs and wonders that silence the Gospel truth.

For example, look at the state of the church today. I suppose that they don't feel that it is as important as "feel-good" subjects. THey don't preach a lot on other contemporary and relevant subjects like the scourge of homosexualitiy, divorce, sexual immorality, or hell/judgment either. Over half of professing Christians believe that preaching about the judgment of God to unbelievers is in "poor taste," if you can believe that! My view, how can you preach about heaven without preaching about hell? How can you tell someone they are saved without telling them exactly what they are saved from? It makes no sense! You almost never heard "Thus saith the Lord" concerning these or any other subjects, and that includes apostasy. You hear the Lord wants, or the Lord desires, or the Lord is waiting for you, etc. These other subjects ministers avoid like the plague (no pune intended), and give their own personal opinions (private interpretations) instead. Why? Because it is not politically correct and most ministers are today politically correct! Which is a nice way of saying that they don't bring the whole counsel of God.

They tend to like to wax poetic on subjects such as God's love, forgiveness, power, peace, hope, the meaning of the resurrection and great Bible characters. I've read that these are the most popular sermon topics--for obvious reasons. And thus these are the ones they preach on. Because when you don't have to stand back and look at yourself, your church or its compromises, you don't have to "see" any abominations there. The problem is that most ministers today preach a slap-happy, Oprah Winfrey, touchy-feely, humanistic form of Christiandom that fillets all of the meat off the message. The sermons that you are most likely to hear in churches today are the "don't worry, be happy and say no doctrine is evil" variety. They say God won't judge because you're under grace and so you will always have peace. But it's not so, even as it gives church-ians a false sense of security!

Jeremiah 6:14-15
  • They have healed also the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace.
  • Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore they shall fall among them that fall: at the time that I visit them they shall be cast down, saith the LORD."
Likewise, Babylon shall be cast down. It shall fall--and for the same reasons. Nothing has changed in all these years. The churches today major in sensibilities, emotions, the human idea of security, worldly practicality, building wealth, supporting political party, and they minor in morality, selflessness, obedience, and conviction. We may respect what we call Biblical ministers (as you say) but God is no respecter of persons. His Word is quick and powerful piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. In other words, He knows who are truly His, and who are saying peace, peace, when there is no peace. The church pastorate today has been politicized, feminized, compromised and weakened by liberal philosophies about how to "get along" to run a successful church.

I call it "The Isaiah 30 Syndrome" because nothing has changed in all these years among God's people. They still don't want to hear the truth, they still only want to hear good (1st Kings 22:13) or comfortable things, they still want to be justified and lied to by deceitful or dishonest means. So that they can continue on in their lawlessness, while feeling justified.

Isaiah 30:10
  • "Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:"

The contemporary people of God don't want to hear words about how unfaithful, offensive, and detestable the church is becoming to God, because then they'd have to actually change their ways, lifestyle and worldly beliefs! That's not palatable to them. Like those before them in biblical history, they want ministers that tell them pleasant things like God loves you, they want preachers that prophecy peace and safety for them (Jeremiah 6:14-15). But there is warfare, no peace, no safety, no prosperity, and they have teachers telling them things that are actually an illusion.

The minister's job is not only to preach on God's love for the repentant sinner, but also to diligently study the scriptures and preach on what happens to those who are rebellious and disobey. That's part of God's Word also, and whatever is written is to be testified to. Not just the smooth and comfortable things, but also the warnings of the idolatry, deceit and abominations that shall leave the church desolate. Things that they never thought (and still don't think) could happen. ...just like the congregation of Israel. As saith the preacher, there is nothing new under the sun.

THis is what Gog and Magog do to the church today. God allow the enemies to destroy His congregation for her unfaithfulness. Again, nothing to do with Israel in the Middle East. You are looking at wrong Israel, wrong Covenant, and wrong Prince!
 
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TribulationSigns

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Part of Daniel 8 refers to Alexander.

False. It refers to Satan v.s. the Congregation of Israel, with the horns representing the Old Testament and New Testament with the church being higher and coming up last after the first.
But the vision involving little horn's transgression of desolation in Daniel 8 is said to be time of the end in the text - read Daniel 8:13. then Daniel 8:17 - referring to the vision Daniel had of the little horn person.

The little horn person comes from north and west of Israel, Daniel 8:9

Once again, the horns in Scripture signify power, not a human person. The vision is talking about the short season of power that Satan will have after he comes out of the bottomless pit. God isn't in the business of prophecy that takes the similitude of a salad bar, where you can take what you like and leave the rest. Giving Christians a variety of options to choose from is decidedly not firm evidence for any of them, it's the very definition of you don't Know! A true "firm foundation" is built upon the word of God alone, not speculation that it could be any one of a group of people.

Dan 7:8-9
(8) I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
(9) I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

I do not believe that the thrones that were cast down were any more political thrones (ie. white house) than the throne that was then established by the ancient of days sitting was!! This was Christ and His throne Scripture prophesied about was not in a political nation of this earth. I believe that this prophecy of Daniel foretold of much more deadly rules than political rule among nations, which deadly rule is the spiritual rule.

As I said in other threads in reference to your seeming obsession or compulsive preoccupation with honor and respect of teachers and church traditions over God's Word, it's better to have respect and honor for what the Scripture actually says and that we agree with that, rather than the various diverse speculations of men. But you can rest assured, if ever I should read in the Bible that the little horn is Alexander or Vespasian (The Roman emperor from AD 69 to AD 79), then I'll agree with you that it is a firm basis for declaring that this little horn represents him. But "not" until I actually see that said, or even implied within Scripture.

John 18:36
  • "Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."
We must allow the kingdoms as God defines them, rulers of these kingdoms as God defines them, a little power as Kings as God defines kings, as He defines horns, as He defines little. Christ has told us before, to seek Him in Spirit and truth, not in speculation or the kingdoms of this world through your favorite world news.

In Daniel 7:8 that the little horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things. It does not mean that the little horn is a man himself, but rather it is the short season of POWER of Satan that works THROUGH MEN, the false prophets and christs who speak great things (ie. lying signs and wonders) that deceive many. Sorry, it is not your King of Israel you thought the little horn is.
 
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