Where do Christians stand?

[LOCO]

Tis sad that

Yes, it is sad for YEC believers .

 

[LinuxUser]

Yes, it is sad for YEC believers .

No, I was thinking it is sad that people minimize the Holy Word of God because they think they are smarter

 

[LOCO]

No, I was thinking it is sad that people minimize the Holy Word of God because they think they are smarter

Exactly, that was my point

 

[Non sequitur]

The Geneologys in the Bible are accurate and exact. Adam and Eve were real people that lived around 6,000 years ago in the Euphrates valley in the upper part of the Furtile Cresent. Just as Science says they did. The Valley follows the fault line between the Plates.

Which part of the above did science say?

 

[LinuxUser]

Exactly, that was my point

your point is to minimize the Word of God?

I believe God when He said He created, mainly why I couldn't be Catholic among other things

 

[LOCO]

your point is to minimize the Word of God?

I believe God when He said He created, mainly why I couldn't be Catholic among other things

It is not just Catholics, the majority of Christians disagree with YEC science. They may believe in the 6day literal Genesis story but a minority agree that YEC science supports the literal story.

I believe God created Adam and Eve through an evolutionary process.

Don't you agree God has a hand in ALL creation regardless of process?

You and I just disagree on the chosen method of delivery.

The book of Genesis was written by Jewish scribes who never literally interpreted the 6 day creation story. What is a day to God?

It doesn't matter in the bigger scheme because believing in YEC or a theistic evolutionary process does not determine whether we go to hell or heaven.

Blessings

 

[LinuxUser]

I believe God created only by creation not by goo to you silliness. I don't put any stock into the lie of evolution, I do think it is related to Salvation.

 

[LOCO]

I believe God created only by creation not by goo to you silliness. I don't put any stock into the lie of evolution, I do think it is related to Salvation.

Then we'll have to agree to disagree.

Why don't think God is capable of creating Adam and Eve using an evolutionary process?

What do you think of the authors of Genesis? They never literally interpreted the 6 day creation story.

 

[LinuxUser]

Because the Bible does not say that

 

[Jazer]

Which part of the above did science say?

Adamand Eve were if you allow me to use the slang word: Jewish. The Science of Population Genetics has a LOT to say about the family tree of not only the Jewish people but all people from the beginning of time.



This phylogenetic tree of haplogroup subclades is based on the ISOGG (2011) tree, which is in turn based upon the YCC 2008 tree[6] and subsequent published research.

• J1 (L255, L321, M267) Typical of populations of the Arabian peninsula, Dagestan, Mesopotamia, the Levant and Semitic-speaking populations of North Africa and Northeast Africa, with a moderate distribution throughout Western Asia'
  • J1* -
  • J1a (M62) Found at a low frequency in Britain
  • J1b (M365.1)
  • J1c (L136)
    • J1c1 (M390) - formerly J1c
    • J1c2 (P56) - formerly J1d
    • J1c3 (P58/PAGES00008) - formerly J1e
      • J1c3* -
      • J1c3a (M367.1, M368.1) - formerly J1e1
      • J1c3b (M369) - formerly J1e2
      • J1c3c (L92, L93)
      • J1c3d (L147.1)
        • J1c3d* -
        • J1c3d1 (L174.1)
        • J1c3d2 (L222.2)
          • J1c3d2* -
            • J1c3d2a (L65.2/S159.2)

Below are the subclades of Haplogroup J with their defining mutations, according to the ISOGG tree (as of April 2009). Note that the descent-based identifiers may be subject to change, as new SNPs are discovered that augment and clarify the tree.

• J2 (M172) Typical of populations of the Near East, Southeast Europe, Southwest Asia and the Caucasus, with a moderate distribution through much of Central Asia, South Asia, and North Africa
  • J2*
  • J2a (M410)
    • J2a* Found in Georgia (Svan)DYS 434=7; Found in North Ossetia DYS 438=7 ;
    • J2a1 (not currently in use by ISOGG)
    • J2a2 (M340)
    • J2a3 (P279)
    • J2a4 (DYS413≤18, L26/S57, L27)
      • J2a4*
      • J2a4a (M47, M322) Found with low frequency in Georgia,[16] southern Iran,[36]Qatar,[37]Saudi Arabia,[27]Syria,[7]Tunisia,[38]Turkey,[7][14] the UAE,[37] and Central Asia/Siberia[39]
      • J2a4b (M67) formerly J2f
        • J2a4b* Highest frequencies associated with Nakh peoples. Found at very high (majority) frequencies among Ingush in Malgobek (87.4%), Chechens in Dagestan (58%), Chechens in Chechnya (56.8%) and Chechens in Malgobek, Ingushetia (50.9%).[5] In the Caucasus, it is found at significant frequencies among Georgians (13.3%)[1], Iron Ossetes (11.3%), South Caucasian Balkars (6.3%)[1], Digor Ossetes (5.5%), Abkhaz (6.9%), Cherkess (5.6%). [5] It is also found at notable frequencies in the Meditteranean and Middle East, including Cretans (10.2%), North-central Italians (9.6%), Southern Italians (4.2%; only 0.8% among N. Italians), Anatolian Turks (2.7-5.4%), Greeks (4-4.3%), Albanians (3.6%), Ashkenazi Jews (4.9%), Sephardis (2.4%), Catalans (3.9%), Andalusians (3.2%), Calabrians (3.3%), Albanian Calabrians (8.9%). [7][1]
        • J2a4b1 (M92, M260)
          • J2a4b1*
          • J2a4b1a (M327)
        • J2a4b2 (M163, M166)
      • J2a4c (M68)
      • J2a4d (M319) Found with low to moderate frequency in CretanGreeks,[17][31]Iraqi Jews,[19] and Moroccan Jews[19]
      • J2a4e (M339)
      • J2a4f (M419)
      • J2a4g (P81)
      • J2a4h (L24)
        • J2a4h*
        • J2a4h1 (L25)
          • J2a4h1*
          • J2a4h1a (DYS445≤7)
            • J2a4h1a*
            • J2a4h1a1 (L70)
              • J2a4h1a1*
              • J2a4h1a1a (M137)
              • J2a4h1a1b (M289) (location under DYS445≤7 uncertain)
              • J2a4h1a1c (M318)
        • J2a4h2 (M158) (location under L24 uncertain) Found with low frequency in Turkey,[14]South Asia,[20][39] and Indochina[39]
  • J2b (M12, M102, M221, M314)
    • J2b*
    • J2b1 (M205)
    • J2b2 (M241)
      • J2b2*
      • J2b2a (M99)
      • J2b2b (M280)
      • J2b2c (M321)
      • J2b2d (P84)
      • J2b2e (DYS455≤9)

 

[LOCO]

Because the Bible does not say that

The Bible does not say anything. You cannot put it in a witness box and ask it what it meant.

God is capable of anything, yes, even creation using an evolutionary process.

You are interpreting the Bible in a vacuum. You have to consider the authors intentions. The Jewish authors of Genesis have never interpreted the creation story literally. Rabbis today never interpret the Genesis story literally.

Having said that, with the ambiguous interpretations of the Creation story, we cannot be sure that we know for certain. It is a mystery and it is quite alright to say that is still a mystery. It doesn't make anyone less of a Christian. Science doesn't know all the answers and religion doesn't hold all the answers to the mystery of the exact process that was used.

All Christians can be sure of is that God has a hand in ALL creation regardless of the process used.

Blessings

 

[Non sequitur]

Adamand Eve were if you allow me to use the slang word: Jewish. The Science of Population Genetics has a LOT to say about the family tree of not only the Jewish people but all people from the beginning of time.



This phylogenetic tree of haplogroup subclades is based on the ISOGG (2011) tree, which is in turn based upon the YCC 2008 tree[6] and subsequent published research.

• J1 (L255, L321, M267) Typical of populations of the Arabian peninsula, Dagestan, Mesopotamia, the Levant and Semitic-speaking populations of North Africa and Northeast Africa, with a moderate distribution throughout Western Asia'
  • J1* -
  • J1a (M62) Found at a low frequency in Britain
  • J1b (M365.1)
  • J1c (L136)
    • J1c1 (M390) - formerly J1c
    • J1c2 (P56) - formerly J1d
    • J1c3 (P58/PAGES00008) - formerly J1e
      • J1c3* -
      • J1c3a (M367.1, M368.1) - formerly J1e1
      • J1c3b (M369) - formerly J1e2
      • J1c3c (L92, L93)
      • J1c3d (L147.1)
        • J1c3d* -
        • J1c3d1 (L174.1)
        • J1c3d2 (L222.2)
          • J1c3d2* -
            • J1c3d2a (L65.2/S159.2)

Below are the subclades of Haplogroup J with their defining mutations, according to the ISOGG tree (as of April 2009). Note that the descent-based identifiers may be subject to change, as new SNPs are discovered that augment and clarify the tree.

• J2 (M172) Typical of populations of the Near East, Southeast Europe, Southwest Asia and the Caucasus, with a moderate distribution through much of Central Asia, South Asia, and North Africa
  • J2*
  • J2a (M410)
    • J2a* Found in Georgia (Svan)DYS 434=7; Found in North Ossetia DYS 438=7 ;
    • J2a1 (not currently in use by ISOGG)
    • J2a2 (M340)
    • J2a3 (P279)
    • J2a4 (DYS413≤18, L26/S57, L27)
      • J2a4*
      • J2a4a (M47, M322) Found with low frequency in Georgia,[16] southern Iran,[36]Qatar,[37]Saudi Arabia,[27]Syria,[7]Tunisia,[38]Turkey,[7][14] the UAE,[37] and Central Asia/Siberia[39]
      • J2a4b (M67) formerly J2f
        • J2a4b* Highest frequencies associated with Nakh peoples. Found at very high (majority) frequencies among Ingush in Malgobek (87.4%), Chechens in Dagestan (58%), Chechens in Chechnya (56.8%) and Chechens in Malgobek, Ingushetia (50.9%).[5] In the Caucasus, it is found at significant frequencies among Georgians (13.3%)[1], Iron Ossetes (11.3%), South Caucasian Balkars (6.3%)[1], Digor Ossetes (5.5%), Abkhaz (6.9%), Cherkess (5.6%). [5] It is also found at notable frequencies in the Meditteranean and Middle East, including Cretans (10.2%), North-central Italians (9.6%), Southern Italians (4.2%; only 0.8% among N. Italians), Anatolian Turks (2.7-5.4%), Greeks (4-4.3%), Albanians (3.6%), Ashkenazi Jews (4.9%), Sephardis (2.4%), Catalans (3.9%), Andalusians (3.2%), Calabrians (3.3%), Albanian Calabrians (8.9%). [7][1]
        • J2a4b1 (M92, M260)
          • J2a4b1*
          • J2a4b1a (M327)
        • J2a4b2 (M163, M166)
      • J2a4c (M68)
      • J2a4d (M319) Found with low to moderate frequency in CretanGreeks,[17][31]Iraqi Jews,[19] and Moroccan Jews[19]
      • J2a4e (M339)
      • J2a4f (M419)
      • J2a4g (P81)
      • J2a4h (L24)
        • J2a4h*
        • J2a4h1 (L25)
          • J2a4h1*
          • J2a4h1a (DYS445≤7)
            • J2a4h1a*
            • J2a4h1a1 (L70)
              • J2a4h1a1*
              • J2a4h1a1a (M137)
              • J2a4h1a1b (M289) (location under DYS445≤7 uncertain)
              • J2a4h1a1c (M318)
        • J2a4h2 (M158) (location under L24 uncertain) Found with low frequency in Turkey,[14]South Asia,[20][39] and Indochina[39]
  • J2b (M12, M102, M221, M314)
    • J2b*
    • J2b1 (M205)
    • J2b2 (M241)
      • J2b2*
      • J2b2a (M99)
      • J2b2b (M280)
      • J2b2c (M321)
      • J2b2d (P84)
      • J2b2e (DYS455≤9)

Awesome.

I see you didn't answer my question, "Which of these did science say?", and just dumped from wiki and ISOGG.

(Btw, the top of the wiki page has, "This article has multiple issues. Please help improve it or discuss these issues on the talk page.")

Again, which of these did science say?

1) The Geneologys in the Bible are accurate and exact.
2) Adam and Eve were real people that lived around 6,000 years ago in the Euphrates valley in the upper part of the Furtile Cresent.
3) The Valley follows the fault line between the Plates.

 

[LinuxUser]

The Bible does not say anything. You cannot put it in a witness box and ask it what it meant.

God is capable of anything, yes, even creation using an evolutionary process.

You are interpreting the Bible in a vacuum. You have to consider the authors intentions. The Jewish authors of Genesis have never interpreted the creation story literally. Rabbis today never interpret the Genesis story literally.

Having said that, with the ambiguous interpretations of the Creation story, we cannot be sure that we know for certain. It is a mystery and it is quite alright to say that is still a mystery. It doesn't make anyone less of a Christian. Science doesn't know all the answers and religion doesn't hold all the answers to the mystery of the exact process that was used.

Blessings

It is plain from Scripture, which always should be the primary guide

 

[LOCO]

It is plain from Scripture, which always should be the primary guide

Yes Scripture should be our primary guide BUT not interpreted in a total vacuum.

Nothing is plain from Scripture.

It also says in Scripture that "if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish"

What should we make of that? Sounds pretty plain to me. Some fundies may very well take it to mean exactly that, cut it off if it offends you and as a result you offend God. Would they be wrong?

There would be quite a few eunuchs, blind and armless people running around.

Peace

 

[LinuxUser]

I will not fight. You go by man I will follow Christ and His Bible

 

[LOCO]

I will not fight. You go by man I will follow Christ and His Bible

This isn't a fight, Palestine/Israel is a fight. This is called debating. One person presents their argument and then the other addresses the points and attacks it. All conducted in a polite and civilised manner of course.

That's a rather shallow and unconvincing argument - I don't agree with you therefore I am not a Christian.

Blessings

 

[Nostromo]

It's against the forum rules to imply that somebody is not a Christian if they identify as such.

 

[Incariol]

It is plain from Scripture, which always should be the primary guide

The dizzing number of deniminations would indicate that NOTHING is "plain from Scripture". Just because you think something is self-evident does not make it so.

Sent from my iPod touch using Forum Runner

 

[theFijian]

Creeds are a statement of belief / faith that were shared by a community. Effectively your creed could be the evolution creed. In essence creeds don't mean much at all except to those that hold them.

And they mean a lot to those that do hold them...so why oh why didn't the very first Christian creeds state anything about young-earth 6-day Creationism?

Creeds for Christianity also never denied the authority of scripture..... They affirmed it...

..and yet they said nothing about young-earth 6-day Creationism, clearly it was never an essential belief, unlike the authority of scripture

 

[theFijian]

Yes Scripture should be our primary guide BUT not interpreted in a total vacuum.

But that's the thing, he's not interpreting the Bible in a vacuum. He's interpreting the Bible in the light of modernist scientific rationalism which tells him that any truth claim must be verified in a empirical scientific manner for it to be valid. Creationists bemoan the scientific method as being atheistic but they seem to not realise that it's this same rationalist movement that gave rise to modern Creationism.