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Where Did Humans Come From?

FaithT

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Well, welcome back. I hope it works out well for you.
Considering I was raised Catholic, left at 24, returned almost about 17 years ago, left again about 5 years ago for the LCMS, I’m not very optimistic but we’ll see. I went to a different ND church that’s near here this past weekend. I’ve been there before, but this time I didn’t care for it. Too hip of a crowd, too many people packed in like sardines, too loud, too long a service etc.
I really like the LCMS near here but like I said, I disagree with them on some points that I can’t continue to overlook.
 
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JAL

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A story (I think I read it in Hoffstader's The Mind's I) discussed this. It seems a person was tired of living and wanted to die. However, he realized that his death would pain people who loved him, so he lived on. Then he discovered a poison that would kill his consciousness but leave his body to continue as a mindless robot, acting just as if he was still conscious. So one night he took it and went to bed happy in his soon to be nonexistence. In the morning, he got up and said "It didn't work. I'm still here."

What happened? And how does this reflect on the question of dualism?
I'm not following this. We move our bodies by free will. Therefore if consciousness were terminated, it is unlikely that the body would do much of anything that seemed volitional, it would simply seem to appear dead which it is, at that point, since the soul's awareness has been terminated.
 
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eleos1954

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Jesus had another opinion...

Matthew 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [19] And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

That's a lot of authority, including the keys to heaven.

2 Peter 1
English Standard Version


Greeting
1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

2 May grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.

Peter considered himself of equal standing with those who have obtained faith.
 
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The Barbarian

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Peter considered himself of equal standing with those who have obtained faith.

Well, let's take a look...

To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

He thinks their faith is of equal standing. But that doesn't at all refute what Jesus told him. Sorry.
 
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The Barbarian

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I'm not following this. We move our bodies by free will.

If this man no longer existed as sentient being and his nervous system continued to act as though he was still there, how would you tell the difference? Suppose we could make a robot that would act in every way as a human being, would it then have free will?

Therefore if consciousness were terminated, it is unlikely that the body would do much of anything that seemed volitional, it would simply seem to appear dead which it is, at that point, since the soul's awareness has been terminated.

Does a dog have free will? An octopus? How about a bee? How about an amoeba? How do you distinguish which ones, of not all of them?
 
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JAL

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If this man no longer existed as sentient being and his nervous system continued to act as though he was still there, how would you tell the difference? Suppose we could make a robot that would act in every way as a human being, would it then have free will?
Machines do not have free will. (Unless of course we want to take seriously a negligible amount).

Does a dog have free will? An octopus? How about a bee? How about an amoeba? How do you distinguish which ones, of not all of them?
Animals seem to have free will, but probably slightly less than humans. Their systems seem to apply stronger pressures, thus making their behavior more predictable and thereby reducing their free will.
 
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The Barbarian

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Machines do not have free will. (Unless of course we want to take seriously a negligible amount).

So how do we tell the difference? What if a machine can pass the most difficult Turing test? Many of them can already do this for most people.
 
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JAL

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So how do we tell the difference? What if a machine can pass the most difficult Turing test? Many of them can already do this for most people.
None of us are infallible. As a fallible person:
...I can't even insist that Christianity is true.
...I can't even prove that you exist.
...I can't (apodictically) insist that my computer is a mere machine. Maybe it's a person.

I happen to agree with those who believe that today's machines are just machines. I can't give you an absolute proof of it.

Scripture SEEMS to distinguish between dead bodies (machines) and living souls. Things that seem to show signs of pain, or an instinct for survival, or self-animation by free will, are probably alive (i.e. have a soul). I said we move our bodies by free will. Notice how a bug self-propels away from me if it senses me advancing upon it to kill it. This suggests free will and an instinct for survival.

It's not a perfect science. But I suspect biologists have done a pretty good job of distinguishing the living from the dead.
 
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The Barbarian

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It's not a perfect science. But I suspect biologists have done a pretty good job of distinguishing the living from the dead.

We can't even get agreement on whether viruses are alive or not. So it's harder than you suspect.
 
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ViaCrucis

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The Scriptures teach us that God created all things, including human beings.

The observations of the natural world point to populations of organisms adapting to their environment over time, and this includes human beings and their biological relatives.

These are not mutually exclusive statements.

If human beings evolved from earlier hominids, we are still God's creatures (because He made everything). If we evolved from earlier hominids, we are still suffering under the tyranny of sin and death and in need of salvation; and all creation remains still groaning in the pain and agony of child birth because of sin and death. As far as what God's commandments are, and the reality of our condemnation under the Law, what changes? Nothing. As far as God's promises of healing, salvation, and reconciliation of us and all creation, what changes? Nothing. God's word abides.

Do we need to get every single possible i dotted and t crossed? Of course we don't. What we need to do is trust what God has told us, we are to abide in and trust the word of God.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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BobRyan

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I don't know if apes are persons or even if they have immortal souls....
Technically, we are apes. What makes you think God didn't do it for some other group of apes as well?

says it all my friends.

This is another reason why a lot of us don't go down that road.

More to the point, God hasn't told us one way or the other.

Maybe we're the only apes with immortal souls. Maybe not.

Too late for that speculation - God already told us what we are in Gen 2:7 and it did not including finding an ape and turning it into a human.

Gen 2:7 7 Then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and the man became a living soul.

And in Gen 1 we find that this takes place on the 6th day of the week of Creation -

And of course in Ex 20:11 we find this same 7 day week in legal code - for Gen 2.
 
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BobRyan

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Your understanding of what the Catholic Church teaches is incorrect.

From the encyclical Humani Generis by Pope Pius XII, 1950.

"37. When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains that either after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parent of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose with regard to original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which, through generation, is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own.[12]"

Interesting.
 
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BobRyan

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Words have power and the word incest will immediately make 99% of people have a negative reaction, it means something disgusting. .

But the reason is that God condemns it and that it results in harm to the gene pool, harm to children.

God didn’t condemn it until Leviticus which was roughly 2500 years after creation. The scriptures also say that the entire world was populated by Noah’s 3 sons.

And before that - by the children of Adam and Eve. Two parents.

So no doubt brothers and sisters married each other for the first 1800 years of human history.

But the genetic defects were rapidly introduced after the flood and that sort of thing could not continue without doing damage to the lineage of downstream generations. So God puts a stop to it.
 
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BobRyan

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I believe Adam and Eve were the first man and first woman. I also believe Eve was created by God as described in Genesis. However, there are those who have the mistaken belief that there were primitive men that came before Adam, like Neanderthals, that interbred with so-called "modern" humans. I contend Neanderthals were not primitive men but true men who buried their dead, produced artifacts and made cave art.

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1316780110

Amen to that!
 
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BobRyan

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Your understanding of Catholic Church teaching appears limited. From Communion and Stewardship:

"While the story of human origins is complex and subject to revision, physical anthropology and molecular biology combine to make a convincing case for the origin of the human species in Africa about 150,000 years ago in a humanoid population of common genetic lineage. However it is to be explained, the decisive factor in human origins was a continually increasing brain size, culminating in that of homo sapiens. With the development of the human brain, the nature and rate of evolution were permanently altered: with the introduction of the uniquely human factors of consciousness, intentionality, freedom and creativity, biological evolution was recast as social and cultural evolution."

This document uses precise terminology that is sometimes lacking in discussions like this. That quote is not set in stone and the writers add "subject to revision." Although a reference is made to science, it does not say "evolution" as described in Biology textbooks was responsible but God. This is a lengthy document that makes other statements that further clarifies this.

"64. Pope John Paul II stated some years ago that “new knowledge leads to the recognition of the theory of evolution as more than a hypothesis. It is indeed remarkable that this theory has been progressively accepted by researchers following a series of discoveries in various fields of knowledge”(“Message to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences on Evolution”1996). In continuity with previous twentieth century papal teaching on evolution (especially Pope Pius XII’s encyclical Humani Generis ), the Holy Father’s message acknowledges that there are “several theories of evolution” that are “materialist, reductionist and spiritualist” and thus incompatible with the Catholic faith. It follows that the message of Pope John Paul II cannot be read as a blanket approbation of all theories of evolution, including those of a neo-Darwinian provenance which explicitly deny to divine providence any truly causal role in the development of life in the universe. Mainly concerned with evolution as it “involves the question of man,” however, Pope John Paul’s message is specifically critical of materialistic theories of human origins and insists on the relevance of philosophy and theology for an adequate understanding of the “ontological leap” to the human which cannot be explained in purely scientific terms. The Church’s interest in evolution thus focuses particularly on “the conception of man” who, as created in the image of God, “cannot be subordinated as a pure means or instrument either to the species or to society.” As a person created in the image of God, he is capable of forming relationships of communion with other persons and with the triune God, as well as of exercising sovereignty and stewardship in the created universe. The implication of these remarks is that theories of evolution and of the origin of the universe possess particular theological interest when they touch on the doctrines of the creation ex nihilo and the creation of man in the image of God."

I cannot emphasize this enough. "Pope John Paul’s message is specifically critical of materialistic theories of human origins and insists on the relevance of philosophy and theology for an adequate understanding of the “ontological leap” to the human which cannot be explained in purely scientific terms."

Thank you for posting that. Very informative
 
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The Barbarian

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says it all my friends.

This is another reason why a lot of us don't go down that road.

The sin of pride. People often don't want to admit that we are animals, born like other animals and subject to the same kinds of needs for our bodies.

Too late for that speculation - God already told us what we are in Gen 2:7 and it did not including finding an ape and turning it into a human.

Nor did He say that we aren't apes, only given living souls directly by Him. You just took the lack of detail as an opportunity to insert your own wishes into scripture.

And in Gen 1 we find that this takes place on the 6th day of the week of Creation

As you know, the text itself says that it's not a literal history. It would be absurd to have literal mornings and evenings before the sun existed.

And nowhere in scripture does it say repeating a figurative verse will convert it to a literal one.
 
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FaithT

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The sin of pride. People often don't want to admit that we are animals, born like other animals and subject to the same kinds of needs for our bodies.



Nor did He say that we aren't apes, only given living souls directly by Him. You just took the lack of detail as an opportunity to insert your own wishes into scripture.



As you know, the text itself says that it's not a literal history. It would be absurd to have literal mornings and evenings before the sun existed.

And nowhere in scripture does it say repeating a figurative verse will convert it to a literal one.
Where does the text say it’s not a literal history?
 
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The Barbarian

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Where does the text say it’s not a literal history?

It speaks of mornings and evenings before there was a sun. Since that's absurd by definition, we know it's not literal days.
 
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FaithT

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It speaks of mornings and evenings before there was a sun. Since that's absurd by definition, we know it's not literal days.
Well, the more and more I read the more I’m considering returning to the RCC. There is a ND church I like but they don’t have Jesus in the Eucharist and it’s farther than I want to drive anyway.
 
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BNR32FAN

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But the reason is that God condemns it and that it results in harm to the gene pool, harm to children.



And before that - by the children of Adam and Eve. Two parents.

So no doubt brothers and sisters married each other for the first 1800 years of human history.

But the genetic defects were rapidly introduced after the flood and that sort of thing could not continue without doing damage to the lineage of downstream generations. So God puts a stop to it.

That would suggest that God was being reactive instead of proactive. What genetic defects are you referring to after the flood?
 
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