Where Arminianism Fails.

[yeshuaslavejeff]

There might be no one in His Hand then, until death. Before death, their free will permits them to turn away from Jesus.

 

[Josheb]

(Surely we want to get closer to Hebrew thought if we want to understand how the Bible depicts God?).

No, we do not want to get closer to Hebrew thought to understand how the Bible depicts God.

One of the most apparent realities in the gospels is how much Jesus corrects the Judaic mindset, theologically, doctrinally, and practically. Jesus doesn't teach a new law, he teaches a renewed law; the law as it was originally intended to be understood.

This is true regarding the law, this is true regarding the priesthood, this is true regarding the monarchy, this true regarding the Messiah, this is true regarding the kingdom of God, this is true regarding soteriology, ecclesiology, eschatology, and most importantly the nature of God! We see this undeniably in their refusal to accept Jesus as the Son of God and his making himself equal with God.

John 5:2-18
"Now there is in Jerusalem by the sheep gate a pool...... Jesus said to him, 'Get up, pick up your pallet and walk.' Immediately the man became well, and picked up his pallet and began to walk. Now it was the Sabbath on that day. So the Jews were saying to the man who was cured, 'It is the Sabbath, and it is not permissible for you to carry your pallet.' But he answered them, 'He who made me well was the one who said to me, 'Pick up your pallet and walk......' For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because he was doing these things on the Sabbath. But he answered them, 'My Father is working until now, and I myself am working.' For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because he not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God."​

Their theology did not have room for God to exist in human appearance. It was a "stumbling block" to the Jew. The entire sect of the Sadducees did not even believe in a resurrection from the dead.

So let's not get closer to Hebrew thought if we want to understand how the Bible depicts God.

 

[Tra Phull]

Said no one could snatch them out of His hand - you are changing the goalposts, saying "none will ever be lost"

 

[Hazelelponi]

There might be no one in His Hand then, until death. Before death, their free will permits them to turn away from Jesus.

Not according to scripture .. Romans 8:29-30

 

[Hazelelponi]

Said no one could snatch them out of His hand - you are changing the goalposts, saying "none will ever be lost"

who would do the snatching in a free will scenario?

a) man.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

3. Does God work under a cause-effect model, or an influence-response model?

Neither. God's Ways Are VERY HIGH above all of man's best ....

(Surely we want to get closer to Hebrew thought if we want to understand how the Bible depicts God?).

Most people don't want to.
However, those who do read some of the Hebrew Word Studies, even a few, or many, and so forth, in Truth, (and not the fake sites), are benefited marvelously, graciously, and simply and wonderfully and blessed in their seeking God's Way and His Kingdom like little children with eyes wide open looking to HIM ! HALLELUYAH !

 

[Tra Phull]

Walking away from being a believer, and being snatched out of Jesus' hand - that's not in same ballpark, not even the same game.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Not according to scripture .. Romans 8:29-30

Would you print out that ? The text.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Said no one could snatch them out of His hand - you are changing the goalposts, saying "none will ever be lost"

Defending a doctrine is awkward - the truth often crumbles a doctrine, so cannot be accepted if the doctrine(tradition) is more important to a group or person.

 

[friend of]

But Arminianism teaches we must save ourselves through obedience

John 6:28-29

 

[Hazelelponi]

Walking away from being a believer, and being snatched out of Jesus' hand - that's not in same ballpark, not even the same game.

Yes it is. Do you understand the meaning of hand? God's Hand - Christ's Hand - hand = power.

No one can take those God has given over to the power of Jesus from that power. It's a place of safety... its the power of God to salvation. And we can't be taken from that once given.

It's why the Lord Lord verses ends with "I never knew you!" They made bold claims, yet Jesus NEVER knew them...

 

[Hazelelponi]

Would you print out that ? The text.

Give me a bit, I have to go right now. Hubby just walked in.

 

[Tra Phull]

He also said "I know ye not from whence ye are", so not all those rejected are in the "never knew you" class

 

[Josheb]

Firstly,

We're somewhat into this conversation, but I think it's good to consider two things.

1. What is the definition of power the Bible ascribes to God?
Does the Bible see 'power' as always 'finishing the work' or as rather enabling the work to be possible? What is the most Biblical definition of power? Absolute sovereignty? Absolute determinism? Or sovereignty that provides freedom to agents?

2. Is 'logic' a necessary explanation of soteriology?
Calvinism wins the debate when it comes to logic, hands-down. If you're a 5-point Calvinist, you are the most logical Christian there is. Calvinism is much more logical than any of the alternative systems - but does that mean it's true? If something is logical, does that make it true? Is the Bible always logical? Does God only ever work logically?

3. Does God work under a cause-effect model, or an influence-response model?
I think the writer Robert Picirilli builds a pretty good case when he asks this question. Enlightenment / modern thought is very much concerned with the cause-effect model. Calvinism works under a cause-effect model (the cause of salvation is God's predetermined, hidden will. It is very mystically mechanical). But have Calvinists superimposed an Enlightenment model over God? Is cause-effect really a Hebrew way of thinking? (Surely we want to get closer to Hebrew thought if we want to understand how the Bible depicts God?).

That's three things, not two.

Way too many questions to address in a text-based cyber-forum at one time and some of it is not op-relevant (this op is about failures in Arminian soteriology, not the strengths of Calvinist soteriology), and much that remains is a simply affirmation of content already posted.

I will say this: Calvinism has emphasized sovereignty over grace and not the other way around. Calvinism does not hold God's sovereignty in any way usurped human volition but it does hold that sin has done so, and all Christian soteriologies agree on this one point. WCF 3.1 states plainly what God ordained from eternity He did so without 1) being the author of sin, 2) without causing violence to human will, and 3) without causing violence to the liberty or contingency or secondary causes. Sin does that, not God.

But Arminians/Wesleyans/Traditionalists say the God-prepared sinner can choose God while still in the dead and enslaved state and then be saved.

It is a Fail.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

But Arminianism teaches we must save ourselves through obedience.

Do you mean as in "work out your salvation with fear and trembling"?

Let's not say what Arminianism says, rather what does any person say/ post ? Saying "Arminianism says" is like saying "men in New York say" , when not all the men in New York say that. Any so-called "-ism" is perhaps a weak label when trying to be specific, and the general statements made here may not be true either, of anyone we know.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

The problem with your view is that the happenstance life impacts your outcome. What you went through, experience, learned or didn't learn etc. is part of the acceptance or rejection formula.

No formula.

 

[friend of]

Grace is resistible, we are told not to quench the Spirit

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

That's three things, not two.

Way too many questions to address in a text-based cyber-forum at one time and some of it is not op-relevant (this op is about failures in Arminian soteriology, not the strengths of Calvinist soteriology), and much that remains is a simply affirmation of content already posted.

I will say this: Calvinism has emphasized sovereignty over grace and not the other way around. Calvinism does not hold God's sovereignty in any way usurped human volition but it does hold that sin has done so, and all Christian soteriologies agree on this one point. WCF 3.1 states plainly what God ordained from eternity He did so without 1) being the author of sin, 2) without causing violence to human will, and 3) without causing violence to the liberty or contingency or secondary causes. Sin does that, not God.

But Arminians/Wesleyans/Traditionalists say the God-prepared sinner can choose God while still in the dead and enslaved state and then be saved.

It is a Fail.

What ?
The Kingdom of HEaven is at times, if not frequently , taken by violence.
Jesus did not bring expected peace, but a sword .... a sword of separation for one thing - everyone must give u their soul-life, must die to their soul-life, to have spirit-life in Jesus, true life, eternal life. They MUST BE CRUCIFIED WITH CHRIST (rather violent?)
as written....

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Grace is resistible, we are told not to quench the Spirit

WHY , oh why, do so many people quench the Spirit, yet let loose strange fire in their assemblies - like the nde experiences, and the toronta laughing deceptino, and so forth !?

They do not quench the deceptive spirits so many times, but Christ's Spirit - left outside! quenched! Not permitted in!

 

[Tra Phull]

This OSAS stuff, I guess it's the P in TULIP, Calvinism crumbles if it is shown to be false. Not all Arminians are OSnAS, the Remonstrants (followers of Arminius) - said OSAS vs OSnAS was too close to call. It is not a pillar of Arminianism, there are OSAS Arminianism.

But there are no OSnAS Calvinists that I know of. Calvinists vehemently defend OSAS, beyond all reason.

And, yes, "no one can snatch them out of My hand" is NOT THE SAME as saying one cannot choose to walk away from the faith.