Where Arminianism Fails.

[renniks]

So I'm talking about being drawn by God to salvation.

Can you find an example in the N.T. where someone has been drawn to Christ for salvation by the Father and rejected that salvation ?

hope this helps !!!

Judas was once truly Jesus' disciple.

 

[Hazelelponi]

If you mean that God says, "I created all of you in my image, but I'll save this person and not that one; these are safe but I choose to send those to hell" I don't agree with such a concept.

Your not understanding. We are all, prior to coming to faith in Christ, enemies of God. No man is more or less sinful than the next, and all man are enemies of God.

We ALL deserve, quite justly, damnation.. every single human being.

God chooses some, of His own accord and not our righteousness or deserving behavior - to show His great love, and mercy toward mankind.

Saving all could not prove mercy and grace, but plucking some out of the fire and appointing us as children... now that's mercy we can see, mercy we can experience in every sense of the word.

because we know - we know who we are, we know there's no way we deserve this, there's no way we should have escaped our just punishment..

He was just merciful, and loving.. to me. to you.

If it was a "doesn't matter what you do you'll go to heaven regardless" type scenario, we couldn't experience the fullness of this gift..

If it was, well we deserve it in some way we couldn't experience the full measure of what has happened to us..

If my daughter isn't in heaven when I go to my final rest, I cannot say God is unjust. If my son, when he passes from this world, if his passing is without heeding my words about faith in Christ, I cannot say God is unjust...

But for me? I can say God is merciful in all His ways, Just in everything He does... regardless of how it appears to affect me and mine personally. Because I know who I am, who we all are - and what we justly deserve.

I didn't deserve salvation, it wasn't because I was especially good in some way... I am experiencing salvation because of God alone, because in His infinite mercy He chose to pluck me out of the fire.

And right here, right now, I know and experience the full measure of what has occured - God loved me, for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that I may have life everlasting.

It's a fullness of Mercy that wouldn't and couldn't exist any other way.

 

[ebedmelech]

But they rebelled And grieved His Holy Spirit; Therefore He turned Himself to become their enemy, He fought against them.

Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.


Then the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years."

Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.

Do not quench the Spirit;

But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land?


Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice.

Because they were rebellious against His Spirit, He spoke rashly with his lips.

They made their hearts like flint so that they could not hear the law and the words which the LORD of hosts had sent by His Spirit through the former prophets; therefore great wrath came from the LORD of hosts.

Is this enough or do you need more verses?

Not one verse there says that God chose those. Those that God choses are SEALED with the Holy Spirit! They can fall into sin...abd God will discilpine them, but they will never be lost.

Heed Hebrews 12:4-13...how God deals with disciplining His own:
4 You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin;
5 and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons,
“My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, Nor faint when you are reproved by Him;
6 For those whom the Lord loves He disciplines, And He scourges every son whom He receives.”
7 It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline?
8 But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.
9 Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live?
10 For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness.
11 All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.
12 Therefore, strengthen the hands that are weak and the knees that are feeble, 13 and make straight paths for your feet, so that the limb which is lame may not be put out of joint, but rather be healed.

 

[renniks]

Neither does a coach force anyone to do anything. My point is that Jesus can take even the persecuters of His people and turn them into His Apostles. Only God can do that.

Sure, and God can do it without forcing anyone to do anything.

 

[renniks]

Not one verse there says that God chose those. Those that God choses are SEALED with the Holy Spirit!

God didn't choose Israel? Deuteronomy 14:2, "For you are a holy people to YHWH your God, and God has chosen you to be his treasured people from all the nations that are on the face of the earth."

 

[renniks]

Not one verse there says that God chose those. Those that God choses are SEALED with the Holy Spirit!

Also, who is he talking to when he says "Do not grieve the Holy Spirit."? The very verse you quote proves you wrong, that his chosen people do resist his will.
"And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."

 

[ebedmelech]

Judas was once truly Jesus' disciple.

No. Jesus knew who Judas was and what he would do before He betrayed Him. John 6:70-71:
70 Jesus answered them, “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?”
71 Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him.

 

[Tra Phull]

Dave L chose to be a Calvinist of his own free will.
He chose to start a thread to diss Arminianism of his own free will, and he labelled Arminians IDOLATERS of his own free will, which he thinks he doesn't have.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Also, who is he talking to when he says "Do not grieve the Holy Spirit."? The very verse you quote proves you wrong, that his chosen people do resist his will.
"And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."

Are you Spirit filled? Have you ever entertained sin? Have you not fought against your sinful flesh since becoming a sealed child of God?

John Calvin comments, “No language can adequately express this solemn truth, that the Holy Spirit rejoices and is glad on our account, when we are obedient to him in all things, and neither think nor speak anything, but what is pure and holy; and, on the other hand, is grieved when we admit anything into our minds that is unworthy of our calling.”

We aren't perfect; we must always keep on guard and work toward not doing what is grieving to God..

 

[renniks]

No. Jesus knew who Judas was and what he would do before He betrayed Him. John 6:70-71:
70 Jesus answered them, “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?”
71 Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him.

Judas originally followed Jesus and preached the gospel. He then fell into temptation and became a "devil"

 

[ebedmelech]

God didn't choose Israel? Deuteronomy 14:2, "For you are a holy people to YHWH your God, and God has chosen you to be his treasured people from all the nations that are on the face of the earth."

Israel is not everyone according to the flesh: Show me where everyone in Israel was saved. Israel entered into Covenant with God at Exodus 24:3-8

Listen to what God said to Moses about what they would do at Deuteronomy 31:14-18
14 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Behold, the time for you to die is near; call Joshua, and present yourselves at the tent of meeting, that I may commission him.” So Moses and Joshua went and presented themselves at the tent of meeting.
15 The Lord appeared in the tent in a pillar of cloud, and the pillar of cloud stood at the doorway of the tent.
16 The Lord said to Moses, “Behold, you are about to lie down with your fathers; and this people will arise and play the harlot with the strange gods of the land, into the midst of which they are going, and will forsake Me and break My covenant which I have made with them.
17 Then My anger will be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them and hide My face from them, and they will be consumed, and many evils and troubles will come upon them; so that they will say in that day, ‘Is it not because our God is not among us that these evils have come upon us?’
18 But I will surely hide My face in that day because of all the evil which they will do, for they will turn to other gods.

Those who were truly Israel had circumcised hearts!

 

[renniks]

Are you Spirit filled? Have you ever entertained sin? Have you not fought against your sinful flesh since becoming a sealed child of God?

John Calvin comments, “No language can adequately express this solemn truth, that the Holy Spirit rejoices and is glad on our account, when we are obedient to him in all things, and neither think nor speak anything, but what is pure and holy; and, on the other hand, is grieved when we admit anything into our minds that is unworthy of our calling.”

We aren't perfect; we must always keep on guard and work toward not doing what is grieving to God..

I'm not sure what you are getting at, but it sounds like you are agreeing with me that we can fall away? The point was the poster said we can not resist Gods will, a claim I find ridiculous.

 

[ebedmelech]

Judas originally followed Jesus and preached the gospel. He then fell into temptation and became a "devil"

Jesus knew that too. Judas was chosen by Jesus for what he would do. What Jesus said of Judas was well before he betrayed Him. It demonstrates the foreknowledge of Jesus. Remember, this was known well before it happened. We have John 13:18 that clearly demonstrates that:
18 I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen; but it is that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who eats My bread has lifted up his heel against Me.’

Jesus is quoting Psalm 41:9

 

[renniks]

Jesus knew that too. Judas was chosen by Jesus for what he would do. What Jesus said of Judas was well before he betrayed Him. It demonstrates the foreknowledge of Jesus.

Sure, but it doesn't change the fact that Judas was a Jesus follower who apostatized. I'm not sure it ever really said that Jesus chose him because he would betray Jesus, only that Jesus knew it would happen.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Judas originally followed Jesus and preached the gospel. He then fell into temptation and became a "devil"

John 13:18

Judas was greedy, displayed beforehand, Judas didn't speak of Jesus as his Lord, but rather Rabbi, Judas, while one of the 12, didn't have a close personal relationship with Him.. (as we can see in the Gospels, there, but always on the periphery)

Judas, like many so-called followers today, was a fake.. he was there hoping for the earthly benefit, the earthly thing, hoping for the war against the Roman empire, and disappointed when he got this Christ - He wasn't the Christ Judas desired.

And he betrayed him for the temporal, and then, rather than asking forgiveness, chose instead to end his own life.

 

[ebedmelech]

Sure, but it doesn't change the fact that Judas was a Jesus follower who apostatized. I'm not sure it ever really said that Jesus chose him because he would betray Jesus, only that Jesus knew it would happen.

No. You're really reaching there. Judas never went apostate..he was never saved. Jesus called him a devil before he betrayed Him. Judas was prophetically chosen for a purpose...which was to betray Jesus.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I'm not sure what you are getting at, but it sounds like you are agreeing with me that we can fall away? The point was the poster said we can not resist Gods will, a claim I find ridiculous.

A sealed child of God is still human, they aren't suddenly sinless and perfect..

but a sealed child of God will never fall away completely they may make mistakes, errors in judgments, and sometimes sin, but not fall away.

They are held to a higher standard, and sometimes will fall, but never fail. The Bible promises God's work in us will not fail. Romans 8:29-30

 

[Tra Phull]

Why is it that Calvinists are so quick to call people "fakes" and "never saved to begin with"?

They can't see into people's hearts

 

[Hazelelponi]

Why is it that Calvinists are so quick to call people "fakes" and "never saved to begin with"?

They can't see into people's hearts

I can see into no man's heart... never claimed to. But I do absolutely without fail believe in the Word of God, and Jesus said of those whom God gave into His Hand none will be lost, and that there will be those to whom He will say, I never knew you (regardless of their claims)

 

[zoidar]

Another failure is that Arminianism denies God's love. It turns him into a bully who threatens victims of sin with eternal torture if they don't "say uncle" by choosing Jesus.

Some would say the same about Calvinism, about denying God's love. I have a hard time to understand how to believe God is love if He didn't send Jesus for everyone.