yeshuaslavejeff
simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
There might be no one in His Hand then, until death. Before death, their free will permits them to turn away from Jesus.
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No, we do not want to get closer to Hebrew thought to understand how the Bible depicts God.(Surely we want to get closer to Hebrew thought if we want to understand how the Bible depicts God?).
There might be no one in His Hand then, until death. Before death, their free will permits them to turn away from Jesus.
Said no one could snatch them out of His hand - you are changing the goalposts, saying "none will ever be lost"
Neither. God's Ways Are VERY HIGH above all of man's best ....3. Does God work under a cause-effect model, or an influence-response model?
Most people don't want to.(Surely we want to get closer to Hebrew thought if we want to understand how the Bible depicts God?).
Would you print out that ? The text.Not according to scripture .. Romans 8:29-30
Defending a doctrine is awkward - the truth often crumbles a doctrine, so cannot be accepted if the doctrine(tradition) is more important to a group or person.Said no one could snatch them out of His hand - you are changing the goalposts, saying "none will ever be lost"
But Arminianism teaches we must save ourselves through obedience
Walking away from being a believer, and being snatched out of Jesus' hand - that's not in same ballpark, not even the same game.
Would you print out that ? The text.
That's three things, not two.Firstly,
We're somewhat into this conversation, but I think it's good to consider two things.
1. What is the definition of power the Bible ascribes to God?
Does the Bible see 'power' as always 'finishing the work' or as rather enabling the work to be possible? What is the most Biblical definition of power? Absolute sovereignty? Absolute determinism? Or sovereignty that provides freedom to agents?
2. Is 'logic' a necessary explanation of soteriology?
Calvinism wins the debate when it comes to logic, hands-down. If you're a 5-point Calvinist, you are the most logical Christian there is. Calvinism is much more logical than any of the alternative systems - but does that mean it's true? If something is logical, does that make it true? Is the Bible always logical? Does God only ever work logically?
3. Does God work under a cause-effect model, or an influence-response model?
I think the writer Robert Picirilli builds a pretty good case when he asks this question. Enlightenment / modern thought is very much concerned with the cause-effect model. Calvinism works under a cause-effect model (the cause of salvation is God's predetermined, hidden will. It is very mystically mechanical). But have Calvinists superimposed an Enlightenment model over God? Is cause-effect really a Hebrew way of thinking? (Surely we want to get closer to Hebrew thought if we want to understand how the Bible depicts God?).
Do you mean as in "work out your salvation with fear and trembling"?But Arminianism teaches we must save ourselves through obedience.
No formula.The problem with your view is that the happenstance life impacts your outcome. What you went through, experience, learned or didn't learn etc. is part of the acceptance or rejection formula.
What ?That's three things, not two.
Way too many questions to address in a text-based cyber-forum at one time and some of it is not op-relevant (this op is about failures in Arminian soteriology, not the strengths of Calvinist soteriology), and much that remains is a simply affirmation of content already posted.
I will say this: Calvinism has emphasized sovereignty over grace and not the other way around. Calvinism does not hold God's sovereignty in any way usurped human volition but it does hold that sin has done so, and all Christian soteriologies agree on this one point. WCF 3.1 states plainly what God ordained from eternity He did so without 1) being the author of sin, 2) without causing violence to human will, and 3) without causing violence to the liberty or contingency or secondary causes. Sin does that, not God.
But Arminians/Wesleyans/Traditionalists say the God-prepared sinner can choose God while still in the dead and enslaved state and then be saved.
It is a Fail.
WHY , oh why, do so many people quench the Spirit, yet let loose strange fire in their assemblies - like the nde experiences, and the toronta laughing deceptino, and so forth !?Grace is resistible, we are told not to quench the Spirit
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