Where are you on the Calvinism Chart?

Maria Billingsley said:

Can we just be followers of our King, Jesus Christ of Nazareth, without any diversions!!

Click to expand...

That settles that. Maria is non-denom

Apologetic_Warrior said:

C.H. Spurgeon and B.B. Warfield (and others since) moreorless stated that Calvinism is the Gospel, in the same line of thought, any Church that condemns Calvinism as heresy has condemned the Gospel. I could be wrong, but to the best of what I know, none of the many Calvinistic Confessions across multiple denominations flat out identify the Eastern Church as heretical, which I consider a charitable and hopeful position, in the spirit of understanding differences of people even within a "Church" or body of believers, of similar mindset. My hope and prayer for Eastern Orthodox is that the true gospel be not condemned but believed and preached, whether it be in agreement with the Eastern Orthodox "fathers" or not. Personally I am hopeful, because God is greater than our feeble hearts.

Click to expand...

You can say Calvinism is the Gospel, the Orthodox Church disagrees with that though.

Jonaitis said:

1. Hyper-Calvinism: Beliefs: God is the author of sin and man has no responsibility before God. The Gospel should only preached to the elect. i.e. duty faith. and anti-missionary Belief in the five points is a prerequisite for true salvation, also known as Neo-Gnostic Calvinism. Proponents: Joseph Hussey John Skepp and some English primitive Baptists.
   
   
2. Ultra High Calvinism: Beliefs: That the elect are in some sense eternally justified. A denial of: The Well–Meant Offer; Common Grace; and God having any love for the non-elect. Proponents: John Gill, some ministers in the Protestant Reformed Church of America
   
   
3. High Calvinism: Beliefs: That God in no sense desires to save the reprobate, Most deny the Well-Meant Offer. Supralapsarian viewing God’s decrees. All hold to limited atonement. Most believe in particular grace and see the atonement as sufficient only for the elect. Proponents: Theodore Beza, Gordon Clark, Arthur Pink
   
   
4. Moderate Calvinism: Beliefs: That God does in some sense desires to save the reprobate, Infralapsarian in viewing God’s decrees. Affirms Common Grace. Proponents: John Calvin (some argue that he was a High-Calvinist), John Murray, RL Dabney
   
   
5. Low Calvinism: Beliefs: That Christ died for all in a legal sense, so one can speak of Christ dying for the non-elect. That God has two distinct wills. Affirms the Well-Meant Offer and Common Grace, Proponents: Amyraldrians , RT Kendal
   
   
6. Lutheranism: Beliefs: That Calvinist over emphasize God Sovereignty over man’s responsibility. That Christ died for all in legal sense, that some are predestined on to life but none are predestined onto death. That the sacraments are means of grace regardless of one’s faith. Proponents: Martin Luther, Philipp Melanchthon, Rod Rosenbladt
   
   
7. American Baptist: Beliefs: That God has given man libertarian freedom, that God’s knowledge of future is based on His foreknowledge. That Christ died for all and desires all to be saved. Once a persons believes the gospel, he is eternally secure. Rejects Calvinism, some would even call it heretical. Proponents: Jerry Falwell, Adrian Rogers
   
   
8. Arminianism Beliefs: That God has given man libertarian freedom, that God’s knowledge of future is solely based on His foreknowledge. That Christ died for all and desires all to be saved. A person can fall from the state of grace i.e. lose ones salvation, since it is our free will that chooses Christ at conversion. Proponents: Jacob Arminius, John Wesley some Methodists

This was taken originally from http://www.exegiaaudio.org/exegiacalvinsimweb.mht, but the link no longer works.

Also, since non-Calvinists can vote, I did not post this in the Semper Reformanda forum.

Click to expand...

I vote Christian: believes what the Scriptures teach

David Cabrera said:

You can say Calvinism is the Gospel, the Orthodox Church disagrees with that though.

Click to expand...

I should have asked, but it just occurred to me, since the great schism occurred in 1054, and Calvinism as a label invented by the Lutherans as a derogatory label to mean Protestants holding beliefs similar to those of John Calvin and most of the other Reformers who all came into the picture a few hundred years after the great schism, at what point and time in history did the EO condemn Calvinism as heresy?

Tree of Life said:

And in one stroke of a pen you exclude the Calvinists from this one church?

Click to expand...

No! The question was where are you on the chart and gave different degrees of Calvinism - my comment was widening the list to include others as well.

Apologetic_Warrior said:

C.H. Spurgeon and B.B. Warfield (and others since) moreorless stated that Calvinism is the Gospel, in the same line of thought, any Church that condemns Calvinism as heresy has condemned the Gospel. I could be wrong, but to the best of what I know, none of the many Calvinistic Confessions across multiple denominations flat out identify the Eastern Church as heretical, which I consider a charitable and hopeful position, in the spirit of understanding differences of people even within a "Church" or body of believers, of similar mindset. My hope and prayer for Eastern Orthodox is that the true gospel be not condemned but believed and preached, whether it be in agreement with the Eastern Orthodox "fathers" or not. Personally I am hopeful, because God is greater than our feeble hearts.

Click to expand...

I would think that the same beliefs and criticisms that Calvinistic confessions identify as heretical in the Catholic Church would be seen as such in Eastern Orthodoxy (such as reliance on extra Biblical tradition, the necessity of works for salvation, etc.)

Jonaitis said:

I don't consider these diversions, but comforting truths. The name has given it a bad rep, to be sure, but these are just biblical doctrines.

Click to expand...

That unfortunately, some contradict each other.

I'm Ultra man...

We have done this a few times already on CF.
The calvinism chart

Jonaitis said:

1. Hyper-Calvinism: Beliefs: God is the author of sin and man has no responsibility before God. The Gospel should only preached to the elect. i.e. duty faith. and anti-missionary Belief in the five points is a prerequisite for true salvation, also known as Neo-Gnostic Calvinism. Proponents: Joseph Hussey John Skepp and some English primitive Baptists.
   
   
2. Ultra High Calvinism: Beliefs: That the elect are in some sense eternally justified. A denial of: The Well–Meant Offer; Common Grace; and God having any love for the non-elect. Proponents: John Gill, some ministers in the Protestant Reformed Church of America
   
   
3. High Calvinism: Beliefs: That God in no sense desires to save the reprobate, Most deny the Well-Meant Offer. Supralapsarian viewing God’s decrees. All hold to limited atonement. Most believe in particular grace and see the atonement as sufficient only for the elect. Proponents: Theodore Beza, Gordon Clark, Arthur Pink
   
   
4. Moderate Calvinism: Beliefs: That God does in some sense desires to save the reprobate, Infralapsarian in viewing God’s decrees. Affirms Common Grace. Proponents: John Calvin (some argue that he was a High-Calvinist), John Murray, RL Dabney
   
   
5. Low Calvinism: Beliefs: That Christ died for all in a legal sense, so one can speak of Christ dying for the non-elect. That God has two distinct wills. Affirms the Well-Meant Offer and Common Grace, Proponents: Amyraldrians , RT Kendal
   
   
6. Lutheranism: Beliefs: That Calvinist over emphasize God Sovereignty over man’s responsibility. That Christ died for all in legal sense, that some are predestined on to life but none are predestined onto death. That the sacraments are means of grace regardless of one’s faith. Proponents: Martin Luther, Philipp Melanchthon, Rod Rosenbladt
   
   
7. American Baptist: Beliefs: That God has given man libertarian freedom, that God’s knowledge of future is based on His foreknowledge. That Christ died for all and desires all to be saved. Once a persons believes the gospel, he is eternally secure. Rejects Calvinism, some would even call it heretical. Proponents: Jerry Falwell, Adrian Rogers
   
   
8. Arminianism Beliefs: That God has given man libertarian freedom, that God’s knowledge of future is solely based on His foreknowledge. That Christ died for all and desires all to be saved. A person can fall from the state of grace i.e. lose ones salvation, since it is our free will that chooses Christ at conversion. Proponents: Jacob Arminius, John Wesley some Methodists

This was taken originally from http://www.exegiaaudio.org/exegiacalvinsimweb.mht, but the link no longer works.

Also, since non-Calvinists can vote, I did not post this in the Semper Reformanda forum.

Click to expand...

The problem in all the choices (including Arminianism and even 'other' ) is that they are...too definite. We think to think we understand (of course, we feel our logic works normally, so why not always....), and we tend to feel there is an either/or because it's logical.

But we are in effect talking about the mind of God, who tells us He will save whom He chooses....

I wonderfully benefit from the reminder of how we cannot pin down and encompass God's thoughts in Isaiah chapter 55.

Consider if instead of abstractions (merely our own logic, etc.), we instead all considered
concrete instances -- several hypothetical persons with enough detail.

What will happen (as many perhaps could guess) is that people with a range of abstract theological views would find they nevertheless agree about their guesses about many individual concrete example persons, as to whether that hypothetical person showed evidence of being saved.

So, if one person makes one logic loop to explain it -- such as saying person X "shows they were never or aren't (yet) saved to begin with" -- and some other observer makes a different logic loop, why should we invest much in such loops?

We'd do better always to do the basics -- to believe and listen and follow.

Jonaitis said:

What are we talking about, the chart or the basic doctrines themselves? This chart describes what more certain Calvinists take beyond (or exceptions to) the doctrines of grace.

Click to expand...

The chart.

Jonaitis said:

1. Arminianism Beliefs: That God has given man libertarian freedom, that God’s knowledge of future is solely based on His foreknowledge. That Christ died for all and desires all to be saved. A person can fall from the state of grace i.e. lose ones salvation, since it is our free will that chooses Christ at conversion. Proponents: Jacob Arminius, John Wesley some Methodists

This was taken originally from http://www.exegiaaudio.org/exegiacalvinsimweb.mht, but the link no longer works.

Also, since non-Calvinists can vote, I did not post this in the Semper Reformanda forum.

Click to expand...

Actually, believe it or not Jacob Arminius and even John Wesley held to total depravity.
What Is Classical Arminianism?
I would divide Arminianism into 5 different categories down this spectrum you made:

8. Classical Arminianism This is the position I hold to. Beliefs: Man is totally depraved. Without the grace of God, man on his own cannot choose what is truly good and just. However, God through the work of His Son, gives prevenient grace to humanity, allowing man to choose God. Jesus died for all, but his atonement is only effective for those who choose Christ. This view is silent on eternal security, meaning that Perseverance of the Saints is totally compatible with this belief system. However, many Classical Arminians believe that it is possible to fall from grace and loose salvation. And some others believe that once you loose your salvation, you can never get it back. But I hold to Preserverance of the Saints. Therefore, I could be considered a 2-point Calvinist. Also known as Reformed Arminianism. Proponents: Jacob Arminius, Remonstrants, Dave Hunt

9. Wesleyan Arminianism Beliefs: Because of the fall, man's free will is totally depraved and corrupted. However, God through the work of His Son, gives prevenient grace to humanity, allowing man to decide whether to choose to follow Christ. Holds to the moral government theology, meaning that God was displeased with man's sin and uses the work of Jesus to hold back His divine justice on humanity and to maintain peace and order in the world. Though John Wesley, himself, also held to substitutionary atonement and imputed rightousness, some Wesleyans and question these doctrines as leaning towards antimonianism. All Wesleyans believe that is also responsible for complying with the Holy Spirit to grow in holiness and sanctification to be perfected with the nature of God. Man must maintain this holiness and transformation from "worldly" ways (this is where we get these holiness standards of no TV, sports, movies, women wearing pants, mixed swimming, makeup, jewerly, etc.) to remain justified. This is called imparted righteousness. Believes that man may loose his salvation but has the opportunity get it back as long as he lives. Proponents: The Wesley brothers, Church of the Nazarene, Fundamental Wesleyan Society, of course, the Wesleyan churches, and certain Holiness churches.

(Crossing this line leads to Semi-Palegianism)

11. Contemporary Arminianism Beliefs: Man is partially depraved, meaning that on his own, man is totally capable of choosing to accept Jesus. Believes that Jesus died for all. May or may not hold to substitutionary atonement and believes that man may or may not loose his salvation, though the majority in this position believe that man can loose his salvation but can get it back before he dies. Aka DAISY. Proponents: Charles Finney, Radical Reformers, Amish, Mennonites, Billy Graham, Billy Sunday, Thomas Campbell (Church of Christ and it's offshoots), Free-will Baptists, many non-denominational evangelicals, some Pentecostals and Charismatics.

12. Holiness Arminianism Beliefs: A subset of Contemporary Arminianism, it is pretty much Wesleyan Arminianisn that rejects total depravity and imputed righteousness and holds that justification is achieved once a person turns away from his sins. Sinless perfectionism may be possible in this life and salvation is maintained by staying away from sins, along with separation from the world. It is possible to loose salvation, but you can get it back before you die. Proponents: Charles Finney, Kerrigan Skelly, Brother Micah Armstrong, Jessie Morrel, Dan Corner (though he rejects sinless perfectionalism), holiness movement, Churches of God, some Pentecostals.

13. Free Grace Beliefs: Man is partially depraved, but he still has his own free will to choose Jesus Christ. Though good works and the desire to stop sinning are strongly encouraged, they have absolutely no contribution or role on a person's salvation. The only thing required for salvation is believing and trusting in the finished work of Christ has covered his sins. However this belief systems is unique in that there may be "carnal Christians", people who trust in the finished work of Christ but pretty much have the same unchanged, ungodly fruits and lifestyle as their pre conversion life. As a matter of fact, a true Christian, in this system, does not even need to have a change in heart towards Godliness or hatred and regret towards to the very sins that Jesus died to save that person from. These carnal Christians will still be accepted into the Kingdom of heaven, though they will be punished in this life by God, loose rewards and privileges in heaven, and be excluded from the 1,000 year Supper of the Lamb. Proponents: Bob Wilkin, Zane C. Hodges, Bible Churches, Grace Evangelical Society, and certain independent Baptist/KJV Onlyites, like Steven Anderson ( the "kill the gays" pastor).

SaintCody777 said:

Actually, believe it or not Jacob Arminius and even John Wesley held to total depravity

Click to expand...

Arminius: “The free will of man towards true good is not only wounded, maimed, infirm, bent, and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed and lost. And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace, but it has no powers whatsoever except such as are excited by Divine grace.”

“Man is not capable, in and of himself, either to think, to will or to do that which is really good; but it is necessary for him to be regenerated in his intellect, affections, or will by God in Christ through the Holy Spirit, that he may rightly understand, esteem, conceive, will and perform whatever is good.”

Arminius: “This doctrine [sola gratia]…establishes the grace of God, when it ascribes the whole praise of our vocation, justification, adoption and glorification, to the mercy of God alone and takes it entirely away from our own strength, works and merit.”

Arminius: “Man cannot have [faith] of himself.”

“It is very plain, from the Scriptures, that repentance and faith can not be exercised except by the gift of God.”

“The act of faith is not in the power of a natural, carnal, sensual and sinful man…no one can perform this act except through the grace of God.”

“I place in subjection to Divine Providence both the free will and the action of a rational creature, so that nothing can be done without the will of God, not even any of those things that are done in opposition to it.”

And also: “As the Gospel is purely gracious…[It] excludes every cause which can possibly be imagined to be capable of having proceeded from man, and by which God may be moved to make this decree.”

Arminius: “I ascribe to grace the commencement, the continuance and the consummation of all good, and to such an extent that its influence, that a man, though already regenerate, can neither conceive, will nor do any good at all.”

Remontrants, Article 4: “That this grace of God is the beginning, continuance, and accomplishment of all good, even to this extent, that the regenerate man without prevenient or assisting or awakening grace can neither think, will nor do good; so that all good deeds or movements must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ.

Source: In His Own Words: Five Arminius Teachings Most Calvinists Can Love

worshipjunkie said:

I would think that the same beliefs and criticisms that Calvinistic confessions identify as heretical in the Catholic Church would be seen as such in Eastern Orthodoxy (such as reliance on extra Biblical tradition, the necessity of works for salvation, etc.)

Click to expand...

I am curious if you're read much from the many Reformed Confessions, and if you could provide examples?

Here is a quote from the Belgic Confession (1561) on Sanctification and works: