• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Where are we now in the book of Revelation?

TPeterY

But seek first the Kingdom of God....
Jan 16, 2014
803
136
✟1,583.00
Faith
Christian
And I also disagree with your position that the Seals are opened prior to the Tribulation.

Sure, everyone's entitled to their own opinion but if you believe the Seals are in the Tribulation, you'll run into numerous problems.

For one, how are you gonna fit 7 Seals and 7 Trumpets into a 3.5 year period during the first half of the Tribulation?

In case you didn't know, the 7th Trumpet is at the midpoint of the Tribulation. You can see the proof where the 144,000 of Israel flees into the wilderness in Rev 12:6 for 1260 days and protected in Rev 12:14 for a time and times and half a time (3,5 years). This means they will be protected during the 2nd half of the Tribulation, which means the 7th Trumpet is at the midpoint.

Revelation 12:6 (NKJV)
Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

Revelation 12:14 (NKJV)
But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.


There is some disagreement on that:

For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son (John 5:22)​

You're not understanding what John 5:22 is saying. God has always been Judge since creation from Genesis and will continue as The Judge till The Great White Throne Judgement.

Look at both entire paragraphs pertaining to John 5:22. It's the same message as John 3:16. Verses 16-23 talks about honoring the Son because it is through Jesus that one can be saved and have everlasting life.

Verses 24-30 is about Jesus deciding who will be part of the rapture, who He will save during the tribulation and who will be with Him after the Tribulation when He divides the sheeps from the goats.

Jesus does not send out wraths, that God's authority. The 7 vials will be from God, not Jesus. The only judgement Jesus does is decide who get what and how much reward in Heaven (Bema Seat), who will escape the tribulation, and who will be able to reign with Him on earth.

Jesus is liken to the Jury who decides who is guilty to be punish or innocent as those saved when He returns.

Father God is the Judge and Executioner, He'll decide the measure of punishments and executed them upon those Jesus turn away for denying Him.

John 5:16-30
New King James Version (NKJV)

Honor the Father and the Son

16) For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. 17) But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”

18) Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. 19) Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner. 20) For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel. 21) For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. 22) For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, 23) that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

Life and Judgment Are Through the Son

24) “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25) Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26) For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27) and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28) Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29) and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. 30) I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.


I think the Tribulation officially begins when the antichrist enters into the covenant with Israel (Dan. 9:27).

You didn't understand why I made that comment. It's because the question of this thread is "Where are we now in the book of Revelation?" I was making a comment based on the topic of this thread, and I was being more specific.

Everyone knows the tribulation begins at the confirmation of the covenant, but when and where in Revelation will that happen? At Rev 1:1, the 1st Seal, 4th Seal, 7th Seal, 3rd trumpet, 7th trumpet, 5th vial etc? I was being more specific concerning a time-frame when I said the Tribulation officially begins at the 1st Trumpet. Following what I'm saying?

So where in Revelation does the antichrist enters into the covenant with Israel?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

TPeterY

But seek first the Kingdom of God....
Jan 16, 2014
803
136
✟1,583.00
Faith
Christian

I'm glad I was able to help in some ways. Concerning the "Fullness of the Gentiles." I'll have to hold back my comment due to a particular reason. But I believe the rapture will most likely happen at the last moment near the very end, even though it's very imminent it can happen anytime after the last blood moon. I'll have to discuss and explain this another time about smaller early signs concerning Israel before the tribulation at another time. But a few are happening in Syria, one being Isaiah 17.

Concerning the trigger to the tribulation, technically I agree it happens when the confirmation of the covenant occurs. But my answer was really in reference to the question of this thread about "where" in Revelation.

It's because Revelation doesn't talk about the antichrist confirming a covenant, it only talks about the seals, trumpets and vials. So I was implying the timing to the start of the tribulation based on the 1st trumpet. Where as the 7th Seal describes a ceremony in Heaven in preparation for judgement upon the earth.

Hope that explains it.
____________________________________

Here's an amazing thing also the Seals. The 7th Seal happens in chapter 8 of Revelation.

All of chapter 6 talks about are the Seals (1st-6th), before it reaches the 7th Seal in chapter 8, the entire chapter of 7 is only about the FirstFruits of Israel: 144,000 on earth and the FirstFruit of the Church in Heaven.

Chapter 7 speaks nothing about a Seal or any signs. It's all about the FirstFruits, and it's before the ceremony commencing the tribulation in chapter 8. It's like a totally different topic just popped in.

We're delivered before the Tribulation. I wish everyone can see this too.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

dysert

Member
Feb 29, 2012
6,233
2,238
USA
✟120,484.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I fit the Seals and T1-4 into the first half of the trib. T5 imo signals the halfway point. I don't know of any problems, let alone "numerous" ones, with having the Seals as part of the trib.
In case you didn't know, Revelation is not strictly chronological. While I agree that Rev. 12:6-14 is referring to the second half, it doesn't mean that T7 starts the second half.
Yes, I follow what you're saying. I just disagree with it. According to my understanding, the trib starts with the opening of the first Seal.
So where in Revelation does the antichrist enters into the covenant with Israel?
While not specifically called out in Revelation, this will occur at the first Seal.
 
Upvote 0

TPeterY

But seek first the Kingdom of God....
Jan 16, 2014
803
136
✟1,583.00
Faith
Christian
I fit the Seals and T1-4 into the first half of the trib. T5 imo signals the halfway point. I don't know of any problems, let alone "numerous" ones, with having the Seals as part of the trib.

All 7 seals with the first 4 trumpets in the first half of the tribulation? No reference or a bible quote to back up that claim either? No explanation why?

Your argument carries a lot of weight.

So you think 5th-7th trumpets are in the 2nd half of the tribulation huh?

Woe, Woe and Woe. LOL!!!

"If you can figure out what the 3rd woe means, you'll know your timing is off."

You must also think the seals are shorter in duration compared to the vials I guess. This not even worth anyone's time debating.

In case you didn't know, Revelation is not strictly chronological. While I agree that Rev. 12:6-14 is referring to the second half, it doesn't mean that T7 starts the second half.

Quote me anywhere from my last post that I said Revelation is in chronological order?

Quote me also where I said the 7th trumpet starts the 2nd half? This was what I said below.

"At" does not mean "start."


Ya got problem here. I don't see the word "start" in my comment above.

Yes, I follow what you're saying. I just disagree with it. According to my understanding, the trib starts with the opening of the first Seal.

While not specifically called out in Revelation, this will occur at the first Seal.

From all you've posted, I don't think you do.

As least for your claim, back it up with bible verses. Again, I don't see anything except just an opinion.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Codger

Regular Member
Oct 23, 2003
1,066
144
83
N. E. Ohio
✟1,926.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Interplanner said:
The fleeing to the wilderness was the departure of the believers from Jerusalem per Mt24A. Mt24A is not futurist. There is no way it can be, either in details or purpose.

Exactly right. Revelation chapter 12 has not one shred of prophesy in it. John is here regaling his audience of the history of the Church in symbolic language. It begins with the birth of Jesus and ends with the believers leaving Jerusalem and Judea (during the retreat of the armies of Cestius in 66AD) for Pella. The 1,260 days symbolizes a period of tribulation - that is, the fall of Jerusalem. There was about a 20 year gap after the fall of Jerusalem to the time he wrote the Revelation. So his history was up to date in the early 90's.

John does the same thing at the end of chapter 17 where he is reviewing the history of the burning of Rome in 64AD. He is showing us that it was a judgment from God and confirms that it was indeed Nero who set the fire along with his henchmen from the Equestrians (10 kings without a kingdom). He continues on in chapter 18 where he writes from the viewpoint of those aboard the ships in the harbor of Ostia Antica during the great fire of Rome. Afar off was 15 miles in this case. Chapter 18 ends however with a prophesy of the final destruction of Rome (vs 21). The final judgment of the city of Rome began with the sacking of Rome by Alerik the Visagoth in 410AD. After this the population of the city plummeted.
 
Upvote 0

iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
9,649
744
79
Home in Tulsa
✟111,096.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married

WHY did John break between the 6th and 7th seal for the chapter 7 parenthesis? For what reason? I asked God about this.

Consider a play with several acts. Between acts, they close the curtain. Why? What happens behind the curtain? They REARRANGING the set to fit the next act.

The truth is, John cannot get to the 7th seal, the next "act" as in a play, until two things are accomplished: the 144,000 absolutely must be sealed for their protection, and the church absolutely must be in heaven, their place of safety. Why? Because the 7th seal is the official notice in heaven that the wrath of God is about to begin on earth, and God has promised to SAVE US from His wrath. He set no appointment for us with His wrath; rather, we have an appointment before His throne.

So the purpose of the chapter 7 parenthesis is to rearrange the setting. Before the wrath of God comes, the church MUST BE IN HEAVEN.

John does the same thing, for the same reason, between the 6th and 7th trumpets.

LAMAD
 
Upvote 0

iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
9,649
744
79
Home in Tulsa
✟111,096.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married

It is worse yet; they have to fit wars, rumors of wars, pestilences and earthquakes in various places into the same 3 1/2 years. Most wars take longer than that!

The truth is, the 7th seal BEGINS the 70th week, or "marks*" the very start of the week. *I got the word "mark" from God. He sent me to find the exact midpoint, "clearly marked" in the book of Revelation. I heard His voice and His words. He also said, "In fact, you could find the entire 70th week 'clearly marked.'"

The week is "marked" by 7's: the 7th seal begins the week, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint and the 7th vial ends it.

One MUST come to understand chapters 4 & 5 the way God understands them. He gave me three questions I could not at first answer.

1) Why was I not immediately seen at the right hand of the Father by John in the throne room? This vision was given to John LONG after I rose from the dead, and there are many verses saying that I went to be at the right hand of the Father, and Stephen saw me there.

2) Why was "no man found" in the search for one worthy to break the seals - that John watched end in failure? If you read ahead you see that I was found. So why was I not found in the FIRST search?

3) Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4? I said as soon as I ascend to heaven, I would send Him down.

I could not answer any of these questions. It seems I was blinded by preconceptions. I struggled with them. Finally, God said, "go and study chapter 12." There I found the key I was missing! In talking about the first 5 verses of chapter 12, Jesus said two words that became the key: "history lesson." I was looking at chapters 4 & 5 as future, while Jesus had John write them as history. Don't believe me and what Jesus said to me? Go and read that John saw the very instant Jesus ascended into the throne room and the Holy Spirit instantly sent down. This would have been moments after He told Mary, "don't touch me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father."

This passage of the throne room is the CONTEXT for the first seals - yet people try to figure out the seals OUT OF CONTEXT.

LAMAD
 
Upvote 0

iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
9,649
744
79
Home in Tulsa
✟111,096.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
That's right.. The things which shall be hereafter are actually the things which were a long time ago.

Everyone knows that.

Old Timer, why are you struggling with this?
You are wise enough to understand!

Revelation 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

You can understand, this is speaking of the past, the present, and the future....all three.

Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.


Read this very carefully: you are adding a word here that God did not add. You are reading this like:

Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee only things which must be hereafter.

John did NOT put that word "only" in his text. So why should you add it in your mind?

If God had told John TWO events of the future, then filled the rest of the book with recipes for mana, He would not violate this verse. It is a statement of fact: John was to be shown THINGS that would come in the future. This statement does NOT preclude God from showing John a few things from HISTORY. Case in point: Rev. 12 shows us when Satan originally fell, he took 1/3 of the angels with him.

Lamad
 
Upvote 0
O

Old Timer

Guest

I agree LAMAD.. and I try not to be dogmatic about things like this.. that's why I simply presented the evidence which does support it being in the future and not in the past.

That's all..

IMO it doesn't matter if we'd like to see this as history and I realize that the word of God is often a two edged sword. although I tend to be critical of the things which are stated and try not to add what is not stated.

Love your posts always brother !
 
Upvote 0

iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
9,649
744
79
Home in Tulsa
✟111,096.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married

Thanks. I can be dogmatic only about the things God taught me. On all other things I must use human reasoning. Revelation is a tough book to use only human reasoning. That is why there are so many theories.
 
Upvote 0

10s3r

Active Member
Mar 15, 2014
172
5
✟412.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I disagree. The first seal was broken in 32 AD or close. It was HISTORY to John as he wrote.

LAMAD

If that were true, it would fuel the atheist agenda of debunking the bible and the hole prophets because a prophet cannot prophesy about something that has already occurred. All four seals are near complete end-time entities.

It's poor hermeneutics that fuel the atheist agenda. Hey! The reformers got it wrong, today's prophecy experts got it wrong, and so does Lamad.
 
Upvote 0

iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
9,649
744
79
Home in Tulsa
✟111,096.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married


Dream on. You have totally missed the meaning of the vision of the throne room in chapters 4 & 5. That vision gives us the timing of the first seals. Did you not notice that in that part of the vision John got to see the very moment Jesus ascended into the throne room, after just telling Mary not to touch Him for He had not yet ascended? WHEN did that event take place? Of course, it was history to John in 95 AD when he saw the visions and wrote the book.

OF COURSE a prophet can teach history as well as tell of future events! They can speak whatever God tells them to speak.

LAMAD
 
Upvote 0

10s3r

Active Member
Mar 15, 2014
172
5
✟412.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
How disappointing! You never answered the question! However, GREAT post exposing the religion of the Beast.

LAMAD

The thing is plenty of you point the finger at my Church...and I really did answer the question in sorts.

If I had to answer the question, "where are we in the book of Revelation," I would say this.

The first seal is "holy war" and the rider is bin Laden. Crossed swords often represent "CONQUEST" in Islam.

The First Seal - BLACKSHEEPPROPHECIES.COM

The second seal is Iraq and Saddam Hussein is the rider. Why do I believe this? Because the word 'sword' in the second seal is a literal "very large sword."

Two points to make about Saddam.



A pair of two arched swords in Central Baghdad consists of a pair of hands that are cast from a mold from Saddam's own hands. The two arches mark the two entrances to the Celebrations Park that Saddam built In recognition of his greatness and to commemorate his alleged victory over Iran.



And I didn't forget this sword of Saddam's....



Saddam Hussein also received a gold sword from Mohammad Amr Bin Yusuf and Abdul Rahman Ahmed from the United Arab Emirates. You may have also seen film footage of Saddam removing it, a large six foot gold sword, from its sheath.

The first and second seal have passed. The next two are likely Assad and ???? maybe an Iranian Koo-Koo.

The four horsemen will pass in pairs like the first and second.

Isaiah 21;6-9.
For thus the Lord says to me, "Go, station the lookout, let him report what he sees. "When he sees riders, horsemen in pairs, A train of donkeys, a train of camels, Let him pay close attention, very close attention."

Then the lookout called, "O Lord, I stand continually by day on the watchtower, And I am stationed every night at my guard post. "Now behold, here comes a troop of riders, horsemen in pairs." And one said, "Fallen, fallen is Babylon; And all the images of her gods are shattered on the ground."

I think the seals may be passing "in pairs."

So now I did answer the forum question as well as put out the evidence of the abominations of the earth.

Islam, Babylon the Great, the Mother of jihadist and abominations of the earth.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

10s3r

Active Member
Mar 15, 2014
172
5
✟412.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private

The seals are the opening events that disclose where we are in prophecy. They are not something that opened centuries ago or in a continual state of fulfillment.

John isn't teaching a history lesson in the seals like you would assert. That's anti-productive to prophecy, and makes John a false prophet whether you like it or not.

If you believe John prophesied about the first seal when it already had passed, then maybe you should go and study just what A TRUE PROPHET OF GOD really is.

PEOPLE DON'T CARE ABOUT HAVING A RELIABLE AND SENSIBLE HERMENEUTIC BECAUSE IT OFTEN DEBUNKS WHAT THEY BELIEVE.

Christians typically have an awful understanding of prophets and apostles. And Christians typically don't care if what they believe is totally contradictory as long as they don't have to admit being wrong or making a mitsake.

Basically, you don't care that your method of interpretation is so bad that it debunks John the Revelator as a true Prophet of God.

That's alright! The experts can't get such simple things right either!
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

10s3r

Active Member
Mar 15, 2014
172
5
✟412.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private

I've heard parts of that one before.

So much for sensible hermeneutics!
 
Upvote 0