Where are we now in the book of Revelation?

Old Timer said:

I believe this bibletruth.. What you write here.

I was told that I don't have the Spirit because I don't hear God speaking to me audibly.

Not sure what your thoughts are on that although IMO it's important. I certainly believe that all believers hear the voice of God speak although that is through the miracle of His living and powerful word. The Sword of the Spirit.

I do not believe that God speaks audibly today as He clearly did in the OT. The apostle Peter tells us that we have a more sure word of prophecy in the scriptures, even more sure than if we were to hear His own voice, audibly.

Paul tells us that there are many voices in the world.. and he isn't restricting that to audible voices.

Hearing is not always hearing something physically.. It's hearing its content and embracing it.

.02

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Then, you don't believe the Bible! It is written that God is the same, yesterday, today and forever. It is written that God never changes. He is the SAME God now that He was then. He has talked to men from Genesis to Revelation.

You misquoted me. You don't have the baptism with the Holy Spirit because you don't have any FAITH to receive it. WHY don't you? Because you have never been taught the word of God about it. The fact that you don't hear God speaking to you is a RESULT of the fact that you have never been filled with His Holy Spirit. I hope you will read my answer to Bibletruth, for he too as FAR OFF from the truth.

You like to quote Peter, but did you realize that much of the New Testament was written by Paul, who got his knowledge from REVELATION and visions and God speaking to Him. Let me give you an example: when God revealed to Paul the pretrib rapture of the church, WHAT SCRIPTURE WRITTEN AT THAT TIME - a MORE SURE WORD of PROPHECY - could Paul have used to verify that revelation? WE could ask this same question about MOST of what Paul wrote: it was NEW revelation. However, you are right in this way: ANY voice or dream or vision MUST line up with the written Word of God. I heard of a preacher that received a dream that he was to leave his wife and marry a younger lady from his congregation. He was SURE it was from God. That is how flaky some people can get.

Perhaps you don't understand. When I say I hear His voice, that SOUNDS audible, It really isn't audible to the outer ear, meaning, if others were around, they probably would not hear it. It comes in the realm of the Spirit and our INNER man hears it. But God can speak so loudly that way, one THINKS anyone around would hear. He also speaks in a softer voice. If you prayed in the Spirit, where God gives the utterance, God speaks through this same place.

I am sorry you do not hear His voice. I am SURE He speaks to you - but you are not hearing. After all, He said, "My sheep know my voice." Do you think he was joking? Are you a SHEEP?

LAMAD

Old Timer said:

It's what God has been doing with the body of Christ since Pentecost imo.. birthing Christ into these frail earthen vessels which technically places us in heavenly places in Christ Jesus..

IOW.. when anyone receives Jesus Christ.. the heavens actually receive HIM until the times of the restitution of all things.

Same with Israel imo.. as a nation..

To me it's mind boggling.. etc and I know for certain that it could be way off... my feeble attempts at the infinitely deep word of God are trivial at best imo.

Although you speak of context and imo that fits..

Israel rejecting Christ doesn't fit..

Israel receiving Christ fits miraculously imo.

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Have you ever wondered WHY the 144,000 were not raptured with the Bride of Christ? After all, they are sealed for their protection immediately after the rapture. My guess is, they were NOT born again, but after the rapture realized that they were WRONG, and got born again immediately after. They realized that Jesus really WAS their Messiah. So they will be God's witnesses during the first half of the week. The TWO witnesses will be His witnesses during the second half.

However, the rest of Israel, other than the 144,000 will not recognize Jesus as their messiah until HE RETURNS and they SEE Him and SEE the nail prints in his hands. Most of Israel will be killed. But those that fled into the wilderness will survive. If we are to believe the Old Testament, 1/3 will survive. God will get them to the place where they know the ONLY way they will survive is if God Himself delivers them. Today they trust in themselves. Therefore, I cannot see those 5 verses as speaking to Israel becoming born again. The timing is wrong. Yes, it will certainly be wonderful when they do, but as Daniel 12 tells us, first they will be completely shattered.

Next, It is my belief that the born again road ENDS at the rapture of the church. From that day on, no one else will ever be born again. The Holy Spirit that did the regeneration will go back to heaven. It will just like it was before the day Jesus ascended and sent Him down. In other words, just like under the Old Covenant. If you noticed, one of the angels of chapter 14 tells people to fear God, give glory to Him and worship Him. Did you notice there was NOTHING about the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus! Nothing about the washing away of sins by His blood.

From chapter 12, John moves to chapter 13. This was God introducing John to the BEAST and false prophet. From then, chapter 14, God warns all humans via angels not to take the mark. And then starts the days of great tribulation Jesus spoke of. They will go far into the last 1260 days, But God will pour out the vials of His wrath that will SHORTEN those days. However, the 42 months of authority given to the Beast will not be shortened. So from chapter 12 on, terrible times will come to Israel, and on the rest of the world, but Revelation is centered on Israel.

Therefore I think the TIMING of Rev. 12:1-5 does not fit your theory UNLESS it is given as a prophecy.

LAMAD

Old Timer said:

I thought that you just affirmed that God doesn't speak audibly, which is exactly what I believe.. ?

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The bible gives us NUMEROUS times where God spoke to individuals. Some times it was with a VOICE, as with Samuel and with Paul and even Elijah. Do you think God quit doing that - or somehow can't? Why would you think that? We are living the same dispensation as Paul lived.

LAMAD

Old Timer said:

It's like what happened to Mary being with child.. with Mary being a type of Israel.. and being born again..

I have often thought that Mary was a wonderful picture of how a person is born again (spiritually) although now I believe that she is a type of Israel..

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Not only was Mary born again, she was IN the upper room and received the mighty baptism with the Holy Spirit along with the 12! Mary prayed in tongues!

Lamad

bibletruth469 said:

Every child of God has been baptized by the Holy Spirit at the time of salvation ( justification ), so if you are one of His, you have the Holy Spirit . The Holy Spirit will not leave the true believer .

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This is simple ERROR and not truth. The baptism with the Holy spirit is a SECOND work of the Holy Spirit AFTER regeneration or being Born again. Acts 8 and Acts 19 prove that. Of course if one reads with preconceived glasses, they will not see it.

Next, the baptism with the Holy Spirit has a different PURPOSE: it is for POWER to witness. It is also to give us a heavenly language so that the HOLY SPIRIT can pray through us. Praying in the Spirit is a wonderful thing, and opens a channel between our human spirit and our tongue so our human spirit can pray with the utterance coming from the Holy Spirit.

Listen close now, read carefully: when one prays much in the spirit, we learn WHERE the connection is that tongues comes from. It is the very same channel that the "still small voice" comes from and of course the voice of God that sounds audible. If we pray in tongues every day, we learn to continually listen at that "portal" where the tongues originate. It is where the Holy Spirit speaks. What can I say further? Most people that don't pray in tongues or pray in the Spirit never hear His voice, but HE SAID, "my sheep know my voice."

Finally, OF COURSE anyone that is born again has the Holy Spirit INSIDE. But if you will read carefully, when God speaks of the baptism with the Holy Spirit, it is ALWAYS "ON" or "UPON," not within, as "The Holy Spirit fell on them..." This is DIFFERENT than the Holy Spirit within: to different events for two different purposes. At Salvation the Holy Spirit is WITHIN as the seal of our salvation. At the baptism with the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit comes UPON for power to witness - plus other GREAT benefits.

May I suggest you study carefully Acts 8 where Philip went down to Samaria?

LAMAD

Old Timer said:

Yes I certainly do believe that God quit doing that.

The Apostle Peter tells us point blank that he heard the audible voice of God and then without a doubt affirms that the scriptures themselves are a more sure word than His audible voice.

That's huge for obvious reasons..

I say I heard this.. you heard that.. the word itself is soon forgotten.. the LORD obviously knows what He is doing and knew that we'd have unlimited access to the holy scriptures whereas the first century church and much longer afterward had no such thing.. most were probably lucky if they ever saw a manuscript..

The LORD can obviously speak audibly if He desires.. I simply believe that He doesn't today but rather speaks through His word and through His Spirit pressing upon the hearts and minds of His creatures..

Not audibly though..

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OF COURSE He speaks through His word. But He is certainly NOT LIMITED to His word.

LAMAD

Old Timer said:

How would you know that you are/were right?

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Ha ha ha ha! Good question, Old Timer!

LAMAD

Old Timer said:

Anyway.. that's how I see Israel in the Day of the LORD.. just as scripture says..

As travail upon a woman with child..

Israel being born again.. having Christ in them.. spiritually.. and then delivered and protected for that time, times, and a half time..

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OK, where does this fit? "the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born."

Do we find this anywhere else in Revelation? Where is Satan when Israel is born again? In fact, where can we find that ANYONE is "born again" or regenerated after the rapture of the church, with the Holy Spirit withdrawn? I don't see your theory as even a possibility. When Jesus speaks of shutting the door, that tells me the door of the born again road will close. 2 Thes. 2 tells me the same thing - however you and I may well disagree on that passage too. I think it is the church that must be "taken out of the way" and with the Church goes the Holy Spirit.

Where in Revelation would Israel (the one third that survives) finally believe that Jesus is their Messiah?

Finally, where is the catching up to God's throne? In real life, those of Israel that escape will enter the earthly kingdom of Christ on earth. Of course the 144,000 are caught up as firstfruits. Do you think we are talking about them?

I just cannot see your theory as a "tight fit."

LAMAD

Old Timer said:

It's what God has been doing with the body of Christ since Pentecost imo.. birthing Christ into these frail earthen vessels which technically places us in heavenly places in Christ Jesus..

IOW.. when anyone receives Jesus Christ.. the heavens actually receive HIM until the times of the restitution of all things.

Same with Israel imo.. as a nation..

To me it's mind boggling.. etc and I know for certain that it could be way off... my feeble attempts at the infinitely deep word of God are trivial at best imo.

Although you speak of context and imo that fits..

Israel rejecting Christ doesn't fit..

Israel receiving Christ fits miraculously imo.

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You seem to be thinking of the born again experience. I don't think that experience will be available during the 70th week or ever after the era of the church closes with the pretrib rapture.

LAMAD

Old Timer said:

Exactly.. and happening for the entire nation of Israel...

We know one thing for sure.. that the Day of the LORD shall come as travail upon a woman with child..

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What does that mean? I take it to mean with much PAIN.

As I see it, the Day of the Lord begins with the great earthquake at the 6th seal, as John wrote, "the day of His wrath has come." They the 70th week of Daniel begins with the 7th seal. Israel will have to live through the 7 trumpet judgments and then the 7 vials of God's wrath. However, their biggest pain will be the Beast and False prophet trying to kill them to the last man. It will be like Hitler in Germany and Poland, but this time it will be around the world. Many will be led away as slaves - but usually this is women and children. Many more will be put to death. Only 1/3 will make it through. This is likened to the pain of childbirth. However, AS travail of child birth does not mean a real child is born. In the 5 verses in question a REAL CHILD is born.

Yes, it is certainly written in symbolism, but you are adding much more symbolism that what is there.

If you cannot see this as about the birth of Jesus, just put it on the back burner. I am convince one day you will...it is the truth.

Do you see the entire nation of Israel being saved? What about the Old Testament verse that tells us only 1/3?

LAMAD