When Was The New Testament Written?

[CShephard53]

Thessalonians

Wow. Yeah, where in Thessalonians? Which book? You ask others for the info you're not giving. What's up with that?

 

[PaladinValer]

So, um, what Scriptures were YOU going by?

He's going by the correct interpretation of the Holy Scriptures.

If everyone goes to heaven upon death, what is the reason for the eventual Resurrection and Judgment? There is no reason if people simply zip right off to heaven or hell.

 

[CShephard53]

He's going by the correct interpretation of the Holy Scriptures.

If everyone goes to heaven upon death, what is the reason for the eventual Resurrection and Judgment? There is no reason if people simply zip right off to heaven or hell.

'Scuse me, but what am I claiming here? Am I claiming anything?

And where do you get the authority to judge his interpretation of a Scripture he hasn't quoted?

 

[vanshan]

He's going by the correct interpretation of the Holy Scriptures.

If everyone goes to heaven upon death, what is the reason for the eventual Resurrection and Judgment? There is no reason if people simply zip right off to heaven or hell.

No, it's a misinterpretation of one verse and ignores many others which contradict that intepretation.

This may not make sense to us, but God's ways are above ours.

Basil

 

[PaladinValer]

'Scuse me, but what am I claiming here? Am I claiming anything?

Implicitly, yes.

And where do you get the authority to judge his interpretation of a Scripture he hasn't quoted?

Orthodoxy.

No, it's a misinterpretation of one verse and ignores many others which contradict that intepretation.

It sounds to me like he's suggesting that we don't zip right off to heaven or hell. If that is what he says, he is right.

That doesn't mean that he is advocating anything like "soul sleep/death," which is clearly outside orthodoxy. There are many valid theologies that exist that can explain what happens to us after we die and before the Resurrection and Judgment.

Personally, I believe that our souls go to sheol, where we are given particular judgment and sent to one of two areas within sheol: paradise or hades; the former of which is a foretaste of heaven and the latter a foretaste of hell, for within sheol God's Presence is felt as not only is sheol, like heaven, outside space and time, but since it is the abode of the dead and the powers of death have been obliterated and its gates flung wide open, then it is open to God's Presence.

Of course, I'm sure he is simply forgetting that the Bible makes it clear that the former occupants of paradise are now in heaven, not to mention that Holy Tradition is clear that the Holy Mother of God is there as well, body, soul, and all.

This may not make sense to us, but God's ways are above ours.

Basil

Is not the above an acceptable belief?

 

[KCDAD]

Wow. Yeah, where in Thessalonians? Which book? You ask others for the info you're not giving. What's up with that?

Paul's first letter to the Thessalonians chapter 4... do you need for me to give you the verse, too? You, who know so much about the Bible, should be able to find it. Chapter 4 only has 18 verses.

You also find the same description in Paul's first letter to the Corinthians, chapter 15... there are 58 verses in this chapter.

I eagerly await your apology.

 

[KCDAD]

'Scuse me, but what am I claiming here? Am I claiming anything?

And where do you get the authority to judge his interpretation of a Scripture he hasn't quoted?

He's familiar with it. He's read it apparently. Now, you have the same opportunity.

 

[CShephard53]

Implicitly, yes.

Orthodoxy.

Um, usually when someone asks a question, they are asking a question. Not making a claim.

And claiming orthodoxy when a question is asked about interpretation of Scripture that had not yet been stated is not going to help you. In fact, it makes no sense.

 

[CShephard53]

Paul's first letter to the Thessalonians chapter 4... do you need for me to give you the verse, too? You, who know so much about the Bible, should be able to find it. Chapter 4 only has 18 verses.

'You who know so much' Where have I ever claimed I know 'so much' about the Bible? Having access to resources about the original languages is not the same as knowing tons about the Bible. Rather, it's knowing about interpretation.

You could just give the information the first time rather than being so reluctant about it.

1Th 4:13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
1Th 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

So, that being posted, tell me something:
Does it talk about people going to eternal life? Or being caught up, and about the bodily resurrection?

And how does your interpretation reconcile with Jesus' words to the thief on the cross:
Luk 23:43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

You also find the same description in Paul's first letter to the Corinthians, chapter 15... there are 58 verses in this chapter.

You could just give a straight answer.

1Co 15:38 But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own.
1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish.
1Co 15:40 There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another.
1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
1Co 15:43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
1Co 15:44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
1Co 15:46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.
1Co 15:50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.
1Co 15:55 "O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?"
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law;
1Co 15:57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

So, again, talking about bodily resurrection. And still, how can you reconcile your interpretation with Jesus' words to the thief on the cross?

I eagerly await your apology.

I do not apologize for asking people for evidence. Nor do I apologize for applying logic and reason to Scripture. I will not apologize to you KC. I have done nothing worthy of an apology.

 

[minister50]

Consider these Scripture Verses:

(Luke 23:46) And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

(Luke 16:22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

(Luke 16:23) And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

(Luke 16:24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

(Luke 16:25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

(Luke 16:26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.

 

[KCDAD]

Consider these Scripture Verses:

(Luke 23:46) And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

(Luke 16:22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

(Luke 16:23) And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

(Luke 16:24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

(Luke 16:25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

(Luke 16:26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.

"gave up the ghost"?

I like the better translation, "he breathed his last". "Last" indicates he never breathed again. (It is also a refernce to the Hebrew notion that life resided in the breath, hence ruach, a Hebrew word that means either spirit, breath or wind.)

The tale of Lazarus and the rich man is obviously a parable, not a historical account.

 

[CShephard53]

"gave up the ghost"?

I like the better translation, "he breathed his last". "Last" indicates he never breathed again. (It is also a refernce to the Hebrew notion that life resided in the breath, hence ruach, a Hebrew word that means either spirit, breath or wind.)

The tale of Lazarus and the rich man is obviously a parable, not a historical account.

There are two meanings, spirit and wind/breath. Context determines meaning. Gave up his breath?

 

[KCDAD]

There are two meanings, spirit and wind/breath. Context determines meaning. Gave up his breath?

Literally: it means expires... breathed out. Metaphorically, his spirit (breath) left him. Expires is used in contrast to inspires: that is often translated as breathed, as in "God breathed" when Paul means inspired by God.

 

[CShephard53]

Literally: it means expires... breathed out. Metaphorically, his spirit (breath) left him. Expires is used in contrast to inspires: that is often translated as breathed, as in "God breathed" when Paul means inspired by God.

Have fun with your illogical and unbased ideas. I've already shown you from Thayer's that you're wrong.

 

[KCDAD]

Have fun with your illogical and unbased ideas. I've already shown you from Thayer's that you're wrong.

Thayer's?

 

[CShephard53]

Thayer's?

Yeah, you know, the thing I cited about 20+ times on the threads that got closed? Greek dictionary? 'Contradictions' thread?

 

[KCDAD]

Yeah, you know, the thing I cited about 20+ times on the threads that got closed? Greek dictionary? 'Contradictions' thread?

So what are your proving me wrong about now? That expire means something other than breathe out? That expire means "gave up the ghost"?
OF COURSE it means to die. How literal do you have to be to think expire translates as "gave the ghost" EXCEPT in the 1600 English culture in which it was translated that way? "He expired" means he died. What I was trying to communicate to a stone is that the use of the Hebrew or Greek reveals the underlying philosophy and presumptions of the culture. Ex- pire... breathe out. In- spire... breathe in... The word for breath is also the word for spirit , wind and connotates LIFE. We know that breathing is not the definition of being alive or not... fetuses are alive long before their lungs begin to work. People are alive for up to 20 minutes after breathing ceases (if the temperature is just right). But for these cultures, there was no understanding of this... life began and ended when someone began or stopped breathing.
This is just one of hundreds of examples why one MUST study history, the culture, the original languages and human nature to understand ancient writings.

 

[CShephard53]

So what are your proving me wrong about now? That expire means something other than breathe out? That expire means "gave up the ghost"?
OF COURSE it means to die. How literal do you have to be to think expire translates as "gave the ghost" EXCEPT in the 1600 English culture in which it was translated that way? "He expired" means he died. What I was trying to communicate to a stone is that the use of the Hebrew or Greek reveals the underlying philosophy and presumptions of the culture. Ex- pire... breathe out. In- spire... breathe in... The word for breath is also the word for spirit , wind and connotates LIFE. We know that breathing is not the definition of being alive or not... fetuses are alive long before their lungs begin to work. People are alive for up to 20 minutes after breathing ceases (if the temperature is just right). But for these cultures, there was no understanding of this... life began and ended when someone began or stopped breathing.
This is just one of hundreds of examples why one MUST study history, the culture, the original languages and human nature to understand ancient writings.

Hark who talks with no sources. You say I should study the history, culture, and original languages, yet you list nothing to support your conclusion. What I'm about to say is directly from the original language. See below...
John 19:30 Therefore3767 when3753 Jesus2424 had received2983 the sour3690 wine3690, He said3004, "It is finished5055!" And He bowed2827 His head2776 and gave3860 up His spirit4151.

Gave:
G3860
παραδίδωμι
paradidōmi
Thayer Definition:
1) to give into the hands (of another)
2) to give over into (one’s) power or use
2a) to deliver to one something to keep, use, take care of, manage
2b) to deliver up one to custody, to be judged, condemned, punished, scourged, tormented, put to death
2c) to deliver up treacherously
2c1) by betrayal to cause one to be taken
2c2) to deliver one to be taught, moulded
3) to commit, to commend
4) to deliver verbally
4a) commands, rites
4b) to deliver by narrating, to report
5) to permit allow
5a) when the fruit will allow that is when its ripeness permits
5b) gives itself up, presents itself
Part of Speech: verb

Spirit:
G4151
πνεῦμα
pneuma
Thayer Definition:
1) the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son
1a) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his personality and character (the \\Holy\\ Spirit)
1b) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his work and power (the Spirit of \\Truth\\)
1c) never referred to as a depersonalised force
2) the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated
2a) the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides
2b) the soul
3) a spirit, i.e. a simple essence, devoid of all or at least all grosser matter, and possessed of the power of knowing, desiring, deciding, and acting
3a) a life giving spirit
3b) a human soul that has left the body
3c) a spirit higher than man but lower than God, i.e. an angel
3c1) used of demons, or evil spirits, who were conceived as inhabiting the bodies of men
3c2) the spiritual nature of Christ, higher than the highest angels and equal to God, the divine nature of Christ
4) the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul of any one
4a) the efficient source of any power, affection, emotion, desire, etc.
5) a movement of air (a gentle blast)
5a) of the wind, hence the wind itself
5b) breath of nostrils or mouth
Part of Speech: noun neuter

Now, tell me something: why would you give up your breath to someone? Wouldn't Spirit be a much better translation? They're two separate things, as Thayer's shows. In addition, death is not implied in that particular sentence yet, as you suggest.
Joh 19:31 Then the Jews, because it was the day of preparation, so that the bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
Joh 19:32 So the soldiers came, and broke the legs of the first man and of the other who was crucified with Him;
Joh 19:33 but coming to Jesus, when they saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs.
In the following verses it is stated.

 

[KCDAD]

Are you really that ignorant when it comes to language? Or are you just toying with me? DO you know why they call the lung disease pneumonia? (Note PNEUMA?)
Air, breath, wind... pneuma... metaphorically air wind and breath represent a person's life or spirit. That is why Genesis translates ruach as the Spirit of God moved across the waters when it really translates as WIND. That is why Paul says pneuma for the spirit or life of someone because to him and all Jews life resided in the one's breath. The word doesn't mean spirit, anymore than the word spirits in English actually means hard liquor. It is used colloquially, it is used as an idiom... but literally does not mean that.

 

[KCDAD]

The phrase, give up the ghost, literally: give up ones breath means he died... it could just as easily be translated he "kicked the bucket" but then you would be looking for the bucket. It could be translated he "croaked", but you would wonder about the symbology of frogs. It could be translated as "bought the farm" but then you would wondering if he used coins with Caesar's name and likeness on them or not.