When was the Book of Acts really written? I mean, really written ...?

BigV

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Richard Carrier's views aren't representative of the vast majority of historians. That doesn't in itself make them wrong, but appealing to someone that is generally seen as a marginal, and highly controversial figure, doesn't seem wise.

Richard Carrier's views on Luke's dependence on Josephus is a mainstream view. Bart Ehrman too agrees with Carrier on Luke using Josephus, as far as I know.

Now, Ehrman disagrees with Carrier on Jesus mythicism, but it only shows that we need to review the issues and not whether someone is marginal or mainstream.
 
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FireDragon76

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Richard Carrier's views on Luke's dependence on Josephus is a mainstream view. Bart Ehrman too agrees with Carrier on Luke using Josephus, as far as I know.

I admit, this has me interested, as it could be evidence for the dating of the book.

It's obvious to mainstream scholars that the author of Luke drew from the hypothetical Q document and Mark, with Matthew and Luke adding different spins on the life of Jesus.
 
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FireDragon76

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I'm checking out Carrier's argument here:

Luke and Josephus


Right off the bat, he makes alot of strange assumptions. Both Josephus and Luke have alot of parallels. Does that mean they drew from each other directly, or rather that ancient Greek histories tend to be told in a certain manner? It's well known to mainstream and evangelical scholars that Luke-Acts uses Hellenistic historiography. This doesn't mean that the histories were fictional accounts, as we understand them today.
 
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BigV

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Right off the bat, he makes alot of strange assumptions. Both Josephus and Luke have alot of parallels. Does that mean they drew from each other directly, or rather that ancient Greek histories tend to be told in a certain manner? It's well known to mainstream and evangelical scholars that Luke-Acts uses Hellenistic historiography. This doesn't mean that the histories were fictional accounts, as we understand them today.

Carrier admits he makes assumptions. But these are also assumptions we make when we read things that are very similar between two or more authors.

Here is a short youtube clip of Bart Ehrman talking about two versions of Acts

 
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2PhiloVoid

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Good point, but your religion is based on writings written... in double digit years and have not been updated since. Yet, it's not a problem, correct?

Ok. Well, for me, it looks like as far as Carrier's use of Steve Mason is concerned, Carrier has probably picked the the best source from Mason and, with maybe a little bit of flourish and some exaggeration, is somewhat representing Mason's points taken from that 1992 book that Carrier cites. In the book I've got from Mason from 2009, Mason says:

I assign Luke-Acts to the third generation without great confidence, but because I have argued elsewhere [in 1992] that the author's [of Luke-Acts] knowledge of the later volumes of Josephus's Antiquities, at least perhaps as orally presented, best explains the peculiarities in their overlapping material. Since the Antiquities can be dated to 93/94 B.C., that would put Luke-Acts at least around 100 C.E.. And such a date, perhaps even a later one, would fit with the tendencies we are about to survey. Nevertheless, I do not wish to give the impression that I have an insupportable confidence about the date [which Mason thinks is ca. 100-135 C.E.] (p. 299)
So, being that this is the case, and Carrier, with a little heightened embellishment of Mason's arguments, will be something I'll consider seriously as I read Carrier's article. And after doing so, then I'll slam all of this up against what other scholars such as Bart Ehrman, L. Michael White, Darrell Bock, Gary Habermas and others have to say on the subject.

[By the way, @zippy2006, @Quid est Veritas?, @Resha Caner, and @public hermit, do you guys have any sources pertaining to the dating of the book of Acts that you'd like to add here for further consideration? Thanks! ]

Reference

Mason, Steve. (2009). Josephus, Judea, and Christian Origins: Methods and Categories. Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishing.
 
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FireDragon76

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So the best evidence seems to suggest Luke-Acts had a late date, after 70 AD.

I still think it contains an historical core, and alot of juicy details, and isn't a work of fantasy. One of the last chapters in Acts contains a potentially embarassing story about James setting Paul up for arrest, for instance.
 
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BigV

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So the best evidence seems to suggest Luke-Acts had a late date, after 70 AD.

I still think it contains an historical core, and alot of juicy details, and isn't a work of fantasy. One of the last chapters in Acts contains a potentially embarassing story about James setting Paul up for arrest, for instance.

Perhaps you right, but I wanted to talk about embarrassment. If you take criteria of embarrassment seriously, then you would have to posit John the Baptist's resurrection, would you not?

Mark and Matthew record that the people were saying that John has risen in the person of Jesus Christ, and Peter's Confession shows that the people considered Jesus to be John the Baptist. Now, that's embarrassing for a preacher who is well renown. Is that bit historical, based on thinking that Christians would not make up a story that goes counter to their message? In other words, Christians will not make up a story that their Lord, Jesus Christ was considered to be risen John the Baptist.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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So the best evidence seems to suggest Luke-Acts had a late date, after 70 AD.

I still think it contains an historical core, and alot of juicy details, and isn't a work of fantasy. One of the last chapters in Acts contains a potentially embarassing story about James setting Paul up for arrest, for instance.

Whoooooooooooaaaaa, Nelly! I didn't say I was on board with a post-A.D. 70 dating and authorship just yet! ^_^

Also, did I tell you that when it comes to anything other than applied math and technological know-how, I'm not big on 'counting' consensus as some kind of rule of thumb. Sometimes, whole groups can be ignorant, so I don't trust that just because, say, 53.09864455 of scholars think X on some datum Y, that I should just go with it.

No, when assessing the Bible----since my life, my death, and my possible life after death, and maybe an Eternity of Bliss are riding on my decision with Reiligion----I'm going for Quality of Quantity, not either Quantity over Quality or vice versa.
 
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FireDragon76

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Whoooooooooooaaaaa, Nelly! I didn't say I was on board with a post-A.D. 70 dating and authorship just yet! ^_^

Also, did I tell you that when it comes to anything other than applied math and technological know-how, I'm not big on 'counting' consensus as some kind of rule of thumb. Sometimes, whole groups can be ignorant, so I don't trust that just because, say, 53.09864455 of scholars think X on some datum Y, that I should just go with it.

No, when assessing the Bible----since my life, my death, and my possible life after death, and maybe an Eternity of Bliss are riding on my decision with Reiligion----I'm going for Quality of Quantity, not either Quantity over Quality or vice versa.

Josephus was post 70 AD, and the evidence is there that the author of Acts was at least familiar with the details of Josephus' work.
 
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Resha Caner

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2PhiloVoid

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Josephus was post 70 AD, and the evidence is there that the author of Acts was at least familiar with the details of Josephus' work.

I think it would be better to say that a certain set of evidences within the overall corpus of evidences that pertain to the literary qualities of the book of Acts may SEEM to be interpreted ... by some scholars ... to mean "that the author of Acts was at least familiar with the details of Josephus' work." ;)
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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Remember, always take Carrier with buckets of salt, as he is wont to misrepresent and ignore evidence inconvenient to him.

In this case, the vast majority of Academia see Luke/Acts and Josephus as separate sources. If I recall, notables like Theodor Mommsen and Thomas Goud wrote on Josephus, and used Acts to cross-reference, for instance. It is true that either they are separate and referencing the same source or events, or one is dependant on the other; but the argument of Acts using Josephus is a minority view that has deep problems.

Firstly, they have a lot in common, but mostly they record different events. What they agree on are expulsions of Jews under Claudius, some governors, a few noted rebellions, etc. That is hardly sufficient to establish a relationship, as those were just current events - as if two texts mentioning Winston Churchill and some of WWII had to crib from one another. Just having a figure mentioned such as Judas the Galilean, hardly equates to firm evidence of derivation.

But the kicker for this to work, is you have to assume Josephus corrupted - as their timelines differ a bit (for instance, assume the Isis scandal an insertion).

There are also big differences - most notably, Pilate's title. Josephus with Tacitus use Procurator. Luke uses Prefect. Historically, this had been used to denigrate Luke as inacurate, until we discovered archaeologically that Pilate's title was Prefect - and those two historians were wrong. For in 42 AD when Judaea was reconstituted by Claudius after the end of Herod Agrippa's client state, the governor was thereafter a Procurator; but prior to this, in the province from 6 to 38 AD, it had been Prefect it seems. This is evidence that Luke has legitimate information deriving from prior to 38 AD, regardless when actually written. It also shows that Josephus as a source is unlikely, or it is more than likely that Luke would have used the wrong title for Pilate.

The only reason Luke is placed after 70 AD is due to the assumption that if a prophecy mentions something, it had to have been written after it. This is nothing but presupposition, as Simpsons has a President Trump years before he took office. Even if you don't believe in Prophecy, Judaea was a restive province, so a prediction that Rome would someday destroy Jerusalem as they destroyed Corinth or Carthage or Numantia, is really not far-fetched. In my opinion, this dating is simply bias, in that people do not want early dates for Gospels, as it messes with the whole 'legend' explanation beloved by secular scholarship. In the 19th century they argued for 2nd or 3rd century dates, till forced to place it earlier and earlier. This is just the forlorn hope of a hypothesis, that people are grasping at straws to maintain.
 
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Remember, always take Carrier with buckets of salt, as he is wont to misrepresent and ignore evidence inconvenient to him.

In this case, the vast majority of Academia see Luke/Acts and Josephus as separate sources. If I recall, notables like Theodor Mommsen and Thomas Goud wrote on Josephus, and used Acts to cross-reference, for instance. It is true that either they are separate and referencing the same source or events, or one is dependant on the other; but the argument of Acts using Josephus is a minority view that has deep problems.

Firstly, they have a lot in common, but mostly they record different events. What they agree on are expulsions of Jews under Claudius, some governors, a few noted rebellions, etc. That is hardly sufficient to establish a relationship, as those were just current events - as if two texts mentioning Winston Churchill and some of WWII had to crib from one another. Just having a figure mentioned such as Judas the Galilean, hardly equates to firm evidence of derivation.

But the kicker for this to work, is you have to assume Josephus corrupted - as their timelines differ a bit (for instance, assume the Isis scandal an insertion).

There are also big differences - most notably, Pilate's title. Josephus with Tacitus use Procurator. Luke uses Prefect. Historically, this had been used to denigrate Luke as inacurate, until we discovered archaeologically that Pilate's title was Prefect - and those two historians were wrong. For in 42 AD when Judaea was reconstituted by Claudius after the end of Herod Agrippa's client state, the governor was thereafter a Procurator; but prior to this, in the province from 6 to 38 AD, it had been Prefect it seems. This is evidence that Luke has legitimate information deriving from prior to 38 AD, regardless when actually written. It also shows that Josephus as a source is unlikely, or it is more than likely that Luke would have used the wrong title for Pilate.

The only reason Luke is placed after 70 AD is due to the assumption that if a prophecy mentions something, it had to have been written after it. This is nothing but presupposition, as Simpsons has a President Trump years before he took office. Even if you don't believe in Prophecy, Judaea was a restive province, so a prediction that Rome would someday destroy Jerusalem as they destroyed Corinth or Carthage or Numantia, is really not far-fetched. In my opinion, this dating is simply bias, in that people do not want early dates for Gospels, as it messes with the whole 'legend' explanation beloved by secular scholarship. In the 19th century they argued for 2nd or 3rd century dates, till forced to place it earlier and earlier. This is just the forlorn hope of a hypothesis, that people are grasping at straws to maintain.

Thank you for offering your view on this, Quid! I've 'filed' this along with those from the other scholars I've named above for further reference, and right now I'm not sure which way to decide, but I like your evaluation. I really do. :cool:
 
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Resha Caner

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The only reason Luke is placed after 70 AD is due to the assumption that if a prophecy mentions something, it had to have been written after it. This is nothing but presupposition ...

I love this whole paragraph, but especially wanted to highlight this sentence. I recall this same modus operandi in my ancient history class regarding discussions about Isaiah, Gilgamesh, and so forth - assumptions that the Hebrews couldn't possibly have innovated anything, couldn't possibly have witnessed such-and-such historical event, couldn't possibly have been literate, etc. so that they must have borrowed everything from the Mesopotamians, Egyptians, etc. and it never could have been parallel developments or that cultural transfer went the other direction.

When I started asking what evidence substantiated these ideas, they melted away.

At one time I thought the fiasco wherein some historians vehemently insisted Belshazzar was fiction (only to be proven wrong) would make them more cautious. But alas, they only moved on to insisting David was a fiction … and then Pilate … and then ...
 
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FireDragon76

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I love this whole paragraph, but especially wanted to highlight this sentence. I recall this same modus operandi in my ancient history class regarding discussions about Isaiah, Gilgamesh, and so forth - assumptions that the Hebrews couldn't possibly have innovated anything, couldn't possibly have witnessed such-and-such historical event, couldn't possibly have been literate, etc. so that they must have borrowed everything from the Mesopotamians, Egyptians, etc. and it never could have been parallel developments or that cultural transfer went the other direction.

When I started asking what evidence substantiated these ideas, they melted away.

At one time I thought the fiasco wherein some historians vehemently insisted Belshazzar was fiction (only to be proven wrong) would make them more cautious. But alas, they only moved on to insisting David was a fiction … and then Pilate … and then ...

Yeah well, that's one reason I don't take conservative evangelical scholarship very seriously. The Tanakh as we have it was written down during the Exile, so being influenced by Babylonian civilization is the simplest explanation.
 
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Resha Caner

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Yeah well, that's one reason I don't take conservative evangelical scholarship very seriously. The Tanakh as we have it was written down during the Exile, so being influenced by Babylonian civilization is the simplest explanation.

No. Define "simplest". Coming up with an explanation for something in the absence of evidence is not proper historical method. It's called an opinion, something we need to honestly acknowledge as heavily influenced by personal bias. It's fine for a historian to give their opinion, but it should be acknowledged as such. The historians I respect are those who remain agnostic in the absence of evidence.

I do like how you shifted my comment to "evangelical" scholarship - as if there is some professional grading of scholarship where secular scholarship gets an A and evangelical scholarship gets a C. Rather than cherry-picking your answers to exclude those you disagree with (labeling them "evangelical"), I think it would be best to consider the entirety of historical scholarship. You'll find good and bad among the "evangelicals" and good and bad among the "secular".

IMO Carrier is laughable - an embarrassment to the profession.
 
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FireDragon76

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No. Define "simplest". Coming up with an explanation for something in the absence of evidence is not proper historical method. It's called an opinion, something we need to honestly acknowledge as heavily influenced by personal bias. It's fine for a historian to give their opinion, but it should be acknowledged as such. The historians I respect are those who remain agnostic in the absence of evidence.

I do like how you shifted my comment to "evangelical" scholarship - as if there is some professional grading of scholarship where secular scholarship gets an A and evangelical scholarship gets a C. Rather than cherry-picking your answers to exclude those you disagree with (labeling them "evangelical"), I think it would be best to consider the entirety of historical scholarship. You'll find good and bad among the "evangelicals" and good and bad among the "secular".

IMO Carrier is laughable - an embarrassment to the profession.

Carrier is an outlier, but the Documentary Source Hypothesis is not. It's a more credible explanation than Mosaic authorship.
 
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