When was Jesus born?

[Root of Jesse]

I wonder how sheep came to do with Christ's real birthday.
Trying to guess by sheep?
No way...

People often impose today's standards on Biblical times. For example, stargazing, and knowledge of the night sky was very common in ancient times. Harder today when there's so many lights around.

I wake up every time I realize that shepherds did a lot for their sheep, even sleeping in the gate so that a wolf or other predator would need to go through the shepherd before they ever got to the sheep. The only way we know all we do know about those times is from the writings on such things as preserved by the Catholic Church...!

 

[ianb321red]

Scripture does actually give us the answer. Jesus was born around the feast of Tabernacles. We can work this out from the account given in Luke's gospel:

Jesus' date of birth

 

[Root of Jesse]

The logic is suspect based on the fact that the author states that shepherds would not be out on Dec 25 because it was too cold...I was with him until then.

 

[ianb321red]

The logic is suspect based on the fact that the author states that shepherds would not be out on Dec 25 because it was too cold...I was with him until then.

We’re told in Luke’s Gospel that Zechariah belonged to the priestly tribe of Abijah. 1 Chronicles tells which
month of the year this tribe was called to serve in the temple (in the one-year cycle they were eighth out of 24
tribes). So Zechariah was in the temple in the fourth month of the Jewish calendar. Elizabeth became pregnant
at that time, six months ahead of Mary... so Jesus could have been born 15 months later (in our calendar that
would be late September/early October at the time of the Feast of Tabernacles).

 

[Root of Jesse]

But to say that shepherds would not be out in Israel in winter casts a shadow on all the other information posted there. It's simply not true.

 

[Albion]

Shepherds tended their sheep year around. Sheep always needed to be watered, grazed, and kept from danger.

But not at night. That happened only when there were lambs. So that's a big hint.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Where do you think the sheep were put at night?

 

[ViaCrucis]

We’re told in Luke’s Gospel that Zechariah belonged to the priestly tribe of Abijah. 1 Chronicles tells which
month of the year this tribe was called to serve in the temple (in the one-year cycle they were eighth out of 24
tribes). So Zechariah was in the temple in the fourth month of the Jewish calendar. Elizabeth became pregnant
at that time, six months ahead of Mary... so Jesus could have been born 15 months later (in our calendar that
would be late September/early October at the time of the Feast of Tabernacles).

The priestly divisions served twice a year (excluding intercalculary months or the three major feast days, which would mean around 4-6 times a year depending on circumstances). The Division of Abijah served near the end of Iyyar and the end of Marheshvan, April-May and October-November respectively.

I can't find anywhere in 1 Chronicles that mentions which month the division of Abijah served, just that Abijah was the eighth division. However we know that the priestly rotations began at the start of the Jewish new year, each division serving their rotation on a weekly basis.

There are a lot of factors that go into this.

Some information here and here may be found useful. The second link contains a table with possible dates between the years 8 and 5 BC.

Of note is that December 25th is not an unlikely candidate. Though we really don't know.

However Jesus almost certainly wasn't born during Sukkot since it was one of the three mandatory pilgrim festivals and would have required Joseph's presence for the entirety of the week. That means if Jesus was born during Sukkot then Joseph couldn't have been with his wife when she gave birth, or else Joseph deliberately violated the Commandment that instructs all men to make their pilgrimages to Jerusalem during Passover, Shavuot and Sukkot.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[cajunhillbilly]

found this online somewhere
Not my work, but an interesting article:

It is now commonly assumed that our Lord Jesus Christ was not born on December 25th. I'm going to argue that this assumption is factually incorrect, and that Christ was born in late December. First allow me to counter a three common objections to the dating of Christ's birth to December 25.

Objection 1: December 25th was chosen in order to replace the pagan Roman festival of Saturnalia. Saturnalia was a popular winter festival and so that Catholic Church prudently substituted Christmas in its place.

Reply to Objection 1: Saturnalia commemorated the winter solstice. Yet the winter solstice falls on December 22! It is true that Saturnalia celebrations began as early as December 17 and extended till December 23. Still, the dates don't match up.

Objection 2: December 25th was chosen to replace the pagan Roman holiday Natalis Solis Invicti ("Birthday of the Unconquered Sun").

Reply to Objection 2: Let's begin with the cult of the Unconquered Sun. The Emperor Aurelian introduced the cult of the Sol Invictus ("Unconquered Sun") to Rome in AD 274. Aurelian found political traction with this cult, because his own name "Aurelian" derives from the Latin word aurora denoting "sunrise." Coins reveal that Emperor Aurelian called himself the Pontifex Solis or "Pontiff of the Son." Thus, Aurelian simply accommodated a generic solar cult and identified his name with it at the end of the third century.

Most importantly, there is no historical record for a celebration Sol Invictus on December 25 prior to AD 354. Even in AD 354, the date is simply designated as "Invictus" without mention of a birthday. The date only explicitly became the "Birthday of the Unconquered Son" under (drumroll please) the Emperor Julian the Apostate who had been a Christian but who had apostatized and returned to Roman paganism. History reveals that it was a former Christian Emperor (who hated Christ) that erected a pagan holiday on December 25. Think about that for a moment.

Why does all this matter? It means that the Unconquered Son was not likely a popular deity in the Roman empire. This entails that the Roman plebs did not need to be weened off of an so-called ancient holiday. Moreover, the tradition of a December 25th celebration does not find a place on the Roman calender until after the Christianization of Rome. The "Birthday of the Unconquered Son" holiday was scarcely traditional and hardly popular. Saturnalia (mentioned above) was much more popular, traditional, and fun. It seems, rather, that Julian the Apostate had attempted to introduce a pagan holiday in order to replace the Christian one!

Objection 3: Christ could not have been born in December since Saint Luke describes shepherds herding in the neighboring fields of Bethlehem. Shepherds do not herd during the winter. Thus, Christ was not born in winter.

Answer to Objection 3: This objection is the worst objection of all. Recall that Palestine is not England, Russia, or Alaska. Bethlehem has a latitude of 31.7. My city of Dallas, Texas has the latitude of 32.8 and it's still rather comfortable outside in December. As the great Cornelius a Lapide remarks during his lifetime, one could still see shepherds and sheep in the fields of Italy during late December...and Italy is geographically to the north of Bethlehem.

Now we move on to establishing the birthday of Christ from Sacred Scripture in two steps:

Step One: Determine the Birthday of John the Baptist
We can discover that Christ was born in late December by observing first the time of year in which Saint Luke describes Saint Zacharias in the temple. This provides us with the approximate conception date of Saint John the Baptist. From there we can follow the chronology that Saint Luke gives and that lands us right smack at the end of December.

Saint Luke reports that Zacharias served in the “course of Abias” (Lk 1:5) which Scripture records as the eighth course among the twenty-four priestly courses (see Neh 12:17). Each course served one week in the temple for two times each year. The course of Abias served during the tenth week and the thirty-fourth week after the Passover.*

The thirty-fourth week after Passover would place Zacharias at the temple during the Day of Atonement (dated to the end of September). This entails that Saint John the Baptist would have been conceived toward the end of September, placing John's birth at the end of June, confirming the Catholic Church's celebration of the Nativity of Saint John the Baptist on June 24.

The second-century Protoevangelium of James also confirms a late September conception of the Baptist since the work depicts Saint Zacharias as High Priest and as entering the Holy of Holies—not merely the holy place with the altar of incense. This is a factual mistake because Zecharias was not the high priest, but one of the chief priests.** Still, the Protoevangelium regards Zecharias as a high priest and this associates him with the Day of Atonement, which lands on the tenth day of the Hebrew month of Tishri (roughly the end of our September). Immediately after this entry into the temple and message of the angel Gabriel, Zacharias and Elizabeth conceive John the Baptist. Allowing for forty weeks of gestation, this places the birth of John the Baptist at the end of June—once again corresponding to the Catholic date for the Nativity of Saint John the Baptist on June 24.

Step Two: Determine the Birthday of Christ
The rest of the dating is rather simple. We read that just after the Immaculate Virgin Mary conceived Christ, she went to visit her cousin Elizabeth who was six months pregnant with John the Baptist. This means that John the Baptist was six months older that our Lord Jesus Christ (Lk 1:24-27, 36). Add six months to June 24 and it reveals December 24-25 as the birthday of Christ. Subtract nine months from December 25 and it reveals that the annunciation was March 25. All the dates match up perfectly.

So then, if John the Baptist was conceived shortly after the Jewish Day of the Atonement, then the traditional Catholic dates are essentially correct. The birth of Christ would be about or on December 25.

 

[Pfaffenhofen]

We do not know. Probably Bethleem.
Probably not on the 24/25th December.

 

[ssoliman]

Does anyone have any info regarding how the coptic christians decided that christmas is on the 7th of Jan?

 

[athenken]

Does anyone have any info regarding how the coptic christians decided that christmas is on the 7th of Jan?

I believe it involved a very scientific method involving a calendar and a dart.

But seriously, I have no idea.

 

[ssoliman]

I believe it involved a very scientific method involving a calendar and a dart.

But seriously, I have no idea.

Hahahahahaha

 

[Pfaffenhofen]

Hahahahahaha

And who cares?
In Spain, more than the birthday it is celebrated the Saint of One's Own Name.
And, actually and theologically, it is more important when Jesus was conceived in the womb of the Virgin Mary for that was the day of His Incarnation on the world.

 

[athenken]

And who cares?
In Spain, more than the birthday it is celebrated the Saint of One's Own Name.
And, actually and theologically, it is more important when Jesus was conceived in the womb of the Virgin Mary for that was the day of His Incarnation on the world.

What day did we make up for that?

 

[Pfaffenhofen]

What day did we make up for that?

"a calendar and a dart" suits me as long as it is the RCC that throws the dart.

 

[ebia]

What day did we make up for that?

Lady day. The Feast of the Annunciation.
March 25th. Surprise, surprise. Dec - 9months =

Except that was thought to coincide with Passover in the year of crucifixion making the incarnation a whole number of years.

 

[Erik Nelson]

hi ssoliman,

Hopefully you'll come to know him as your Savior, but for now I can shed some light on what is generally believed about the date of Jesus' birth. We know that Jesus was born during the reign of Herod the Great. It is believed by some that he died in 4 BC. Therefore, Jesus must have been born in 4 BC or before. We know that an angel warned Joseph, Jesus' earthly paternal parent, to flee to Egypt to save the child from Herod's onslaught against all the young boys up to the age of 2. The only unanswered question is how long did Herod live after issuing and carrying out this murderous decree. The angel visits Joseph again in Egypt and tells him that it is safe to return because Herod is dead, but we don't know how long they were in exile in Egypt.

Because of these 'facts', it is believed that Jesus was born 2 or 3 years before Herod's death, but there aren't really any cold hard facts to support an exact year. However, let it be noted that the way we account for time and days and years is not the same today as it was when these things happened. In other words, there wasn't any year known as 4 BC when Herod died. We have done our best to count back and reconstruct dates based on historical knowledge of certain landmarks along the way.

For example, in Judaism years had two beginnings. There was the religious year which was marked by the Passover and began as God told Moses in Egypt, "This will be the first month of your year...", and began the first of Nisan in the spring. However, the actual accounting for the beginning of a new year is the month of Tishri in the fall. I only add this to explain that even the date of Herod's death, 4 BC is somewhat suspect.

One of the great historians of that day, Josephus, writes that Herod died shortly after an eclipse. Well, there was an eclipse, two in fact, in 5 BC and one in 1 BC. There was one in 4 BC but it was a partial eclipse only. Josephus doesn't give any further details regarding the eclipse. Because of this we can't be absolutey sure which eclipse that Josephus was referring to.

Here's what one site claims:

Matthew tell us that Jesus was born while Herod the Great was king of Judea.
For more in on the life of King Herod go to this link.
Here we will concentrate only on the time of his death. It has always been thought that he was king between 40 BC to 4 BC although he did not do any actual ruling until 37 BC. If the death of Herod in 4 BC is true, then Jesus could not have been born after that date. How do we know that Herod died in 4 BC? Josephus, the historian tells us quite a bit about Herod the Great including details about his death. Apparently he died of a particularly nasty medical condition a little while after an incident involving the execution of several hot headed young intellects and a high preist during a fast day.

[SIZE=-1]But Herod deprived this Matthias of the high priesthood, and burnt the other Matthias, who had raised the sedition, with his companions, alive. And that very night there was an eclipse of the moon. - Antiquities 17:6:4[/SIZE]

(Josephus is probably linking the eclipse and the execution because during an eclipse of the moon, the moon turns red, the colour of blood. ) What we need therefore is an eclipse taking place the night after a Jewish fast day. Now a lunar eclipse always happens at a full moon which is always on the 14th day of a Jewish month. The only fast on the 13th day of a Jewish month is the 'Esther Fast' which takes place during the Purim festival. This occurs during the last Jewish month of the year, known as 'Adar'.

There are 2 possible eclipses in the period 7 BC to AD 6

A total eclipse on the 23rd March 5 BC at 7:45 pm
A partial eclipse on the 13th March 4 BC at 2:41 am.

Now the Jewish New Year is always the nearest new moon to the 21st March. This is worked out by observation and therefore can never be calculated exactly but nominally I calculate them as the 10th March 5 BC and 29th March 4 BC. Even if I'm out by a few days, only the eclipse occuring on the 13th March 4 BC could have taken place in Adar.
According to Josephus Herod died before the Passover of that year (Ant. 17.9.3) (although Whiston believed that reference was the year after) This would have taken place on the 11th April 4 BC. Obviously the Magi met King Herod only after Jesus had been born. Even if we say that Herod met the wise men just before his death and that Jesus was only 18 month old that puts his birth date towards the middle of 6 BC at the very latest.

Taking all the information together we are reaching a concensus of between the end quarter of 7 BC and the end quarter of 6 BC. If we want to synthesize a date for Christ's Birth then given all the information with all the guesswork and uncertainties we would have very precarious a date of 4th October 7BC.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
The information that I gave of an eclipse in 1 BC came from another site. I also question why this piece that I have posted claims that this account alludes to a fast day. I don't see any confirmation in the account of Josephus' writing that is posted here that connects the events of the rebels execution and the eclipse that very same night with any sort of fast that may have just passed. It's possible that it is mentioned in the whole of his writings. I'm honestly not too familiar with what Josephus wrote, but do know that he was a Jewish historian in those days and that much of what we know about times and dates of those days come from his writings.

So, hopefully you can see that we really don't have any hard and fast date for births and deaths thousands of years ago. In fact, particularly accurate dating of births and deaths is really only a few hundred years old. With some, very important personages recorded before that. But no matter, in the days of Jesus life, actual dates for events is nearly impossible to determine for anything because there was no standard calander system of dates and records of such things were fairly non-existent even when there was some calander dating system.

People didn't have mortgages or car payments and meetings would just be scheduled
by saying something like, "In two days..." or "In three days we will meet." Events that happened in the past were either "a few days ago" or "In the days of such-and-such a king." People had no reason or method to date things like, "On June 14, 1912 something happened."

I hope this helps. God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Awesome analysis of known information!

I'd like to offer the following. Church Tradition dates Jesus' birth to late December - early January. Your timeline best accommodates:

birth ~= Dec 7 BC - Jan 6 BC​

Now, Augustus did indeed order a census of the Roman empire in 8 BC, which may have eventually reached outlying provinces like Judaea in 7 BC (link). So we could easily have:

Roman census calls Holy Family to Bethlehem (Luke 2) in 7 BC
Jesus born in a manger (Luke 2) around Dec 7 BC / Jan 6 BC​

Now, when the physical Temple was still standing, Jewish mothers were considered niddah for a period of 7 + 33 = 40 days after the birth of a male child (link), after which they would present themselves for purification in the Temple (Luke 2:22). Given that Mary had just given birth to her first-born child, that they had to wait for her purification ritual anyway, and that Bethlehem where they then were is rather far on foot from Nazareth in Galilee, I offer that the Holy Family opted to stay in Bethlehem until mid-Feb 6 BC:

Roman census calls Holy Family to Bethlehem (Luke 2) in 7 BC
Jesus born in a manger (Luke 2) around Dec 7 BC / Jan 6 BC
Mary's purification ritual at the Temple (Luke 2) in mid-Feb 6 BC​

I then offer that, "while they were there anyway", they then waited another month until Passover 6 BC to visit the Temple (Luke 2:41):
​

Roman census calls Holy Family to Bethlehem in 7 BC
Jesus born in a manger amidst shepherds around Dec 7 BC / Jan 6 BC
Mary's purification & Prophesies of Simeon & Anna at the Temple in mid-Feb 6 BC
Holy Family visits Temple on Passover in Mar / Apr 6 BC​

Meanwhile, according to NWE:

In 6 B.C.E., he executed several Pharisaic leaders who had announced that the birth of the Messiah would mean the end of Herod's rule. Then, in 4 B.C.E., when young Torah-students smashed the golden Roman eagle over the main entrance of Herod's Temple, he had 40 of them along with two of their professors burned alive. The Massacre of the Innocents, if it was historical, also would have occurred around this time.​

​

Evidently, all of the hallelujah's of the shepherds and the Prophesying of Simeon & Anna (Luke 2) in early 6 BC inspired other Pharisaic Jews (perhaps followers of Rabbi Hillel ?) who, believing at least to some degree, and emboldened by the symbol of Passover, bravely-if-recklessly spoke out against Herod the Great.

Now, at this point, the Gospel of Luke "skips ahead" to when the Holy Family was safely back in Nazareth. So, we must "pause" Luke 2, and "play" Matthew 2. Evidently, the Holy Family stayed in Bethlehem for 2 years after the birth of Jesus. Joseph apparently found work, such that when the Magi arrived there, the Holy Family was now living in a house, as opposed to a mere manger. The Magi had stirred up quiet a commotion of Messianic fervor in Jerusalem (Matt 2:3), inspiring "university students" (so to speak) to riot and deface a Roman eagle mounted over the entrance to the Temple in early 4 BC:
​

Roman census calls Holy Family to Bethlehem in 7 BC
Jesus born in manger amidst shepherds under newly appeared "Star of Bethlehem" around Dec 7 BC / Jan 6 BC
Mary's purification & Prophesies of Simeon & Anna at the Temple in mid-Feb 6 BC
Holy Family visits Temple on Passover in Mar / Apr 6 BC​

Pharisaic Jews rebuke Herod with Messianic Prophesies in 6 BC​

Holy Family stays in Bethlehem from 6 BC - 4 BC​

Magi proclaim Messiah to Jerusalem after following "Star of Bethlehem" for 2 years in early 4 BC​

Youthful Torah students riot at the Temple in early 4 BC​

40 young students & many innocents 2 years & younger massacred in early 4 BC​

Holy Family flees to Egypt in early 4 BC​

Holy Family returns to Nazareth (Luke 2:39 = Matt 2:23) in 4 BC​

...​

Jesus' 1st Passover during Ministry in 46th year of Temple renovations (John 2) in 26/27 AD when Jesus was 33-34 years old​

Crucifixion in 28/29 AD​

​

​

Prima facie, all of the Gospels are mutually self-consistent, and support an "early chronology" with an "early birth" around Dec 7 BC / Jan 6 BC and an "early Ministry" with Jesus' 3 Passovers occurring in about 26/27/28 AD.​

​

Speculatively, I offer that the "anti-Semitic" Sejanus, then the true "power behind the throne" in Rome, did learn of the massive up-swell of Jewish Messianic fervor inspired by John the Baptist in 25 AD (during which year Jesus was Baptized), and then did send Pilate in to investigate & quell Jewish Messianic pretensions in 26 AD (the very first year of Jesus' Ministry).​

​

According to this picture, Spiritually speaking, "God in heaven" working through John & Jesus faced immediate opposition from "Demonically inspired worldly powers". No sooner did John begin preaching & baptizing & Baptize Jesus than did "the Prince of this world" employ Sejanus to send in Pilate.​

​

If so, then there was no several year delay. Pilate did not arrive in Judaea in 26 AD "by happenstance" and John & Jesus began preaching only years later. Nay, instead, John & Jesus began preaching in 25 AD, and Sejanus immediately sent in Pilate to investigate in 26 AD.​

​

​

​

​

 

[Erik Nelson]

Star of Bethlehem was visible to the Magi for two years, as they slowly traveled from the east, before they finally reached Jerusalem and had an audience with king Herod.

The light was obvious to star gazing astrologers like the Magi, but subtle enough that nobody in Judaea had yet perceived it.

Such sounds like a maximally bright and long lived supernovae within our galaxy. There was such a supernova 2000 years ago! The star of Bethlehem may have been the supernova RCW103, whose remnant resides within the plane of the galaxy in the direction of the Norma and Scorpios constellations.

Supernova Leaves Behind Mysterious Object

RCW103 - Wikipedia

EDIT:

Some Notes on the Visibility of the 5BC Chinese Star

The Chinese & Koreans observed a supernova-like event, in that general area on the sky, in March 5 BC and March 4 BC (respectively). Plausibly, the Chinese & Koreans observed the lingering afterglow of SN RCW103.

 

[Radagast]