When was Jesus begotten?

[2ducklow]

And so the fault of your simple understanding, comparing Jesus existence to yours.

heb.2.16For, not surely of messengers, is he laying hold, but, of Abraham's seed, he is laying hold.

2:17 Whence he was obliged, in every way, unto the brethren, to be made like, that he might become a merciful and faithful high-priest, in the things pertaining unto God,—for the making of propitiation for the sins of the people.

2:18 For, in that, he, suffered when tested, he is able, unto them who are being tested, to give succour.

When a man and a woman conceive, they create a body and a soul. When the Holy Spirit conceived in Mary, it was the creation of flesh, not a soul. The soul of Jesus came down from heaven to the flesh of Jesus. This is what Hebrews means when it says Jesus was made lower for a little while.

Is there a word for creating a body, I think it conceive. Is there a word for creating a soul, I think it beget. If this is not accurate, than I know of no word for the creation of a body without the creation of a soul.

No you have just redefined the words beget and conceive. You do not know what the words mean.
I take God at his word when he said that he, God, the Holy Spirit, beget Jesus in mary. And I take God at his word when God said Mary conceived Jesus. I believe God knows what those words mean. You do not.

Is it possible for flesh to be created without a soul? Certainly, Jesus is an example of it. I have also postulated before, that the Nephilim did not have souls?

There are many scripture verses that speak to the Son of God existing before being born. John used the name Logos/Word for him at the time of creation. The Old Testament uses the Angel of the Lord. Sometimes it was just Lord. Regardless, Jesus existence did not start with his conception.

This thread was started with a quote of Hebrews 5:4-6. Everyone is fixated on verse 5 which is the OP question; "Today have I begotten thee". Verse 6 is ignored which teaches that this "calling" as stated in verse 4 is in the same order as Melchizedek . Read Heb 7 to learn that this means he is eternal and not of earthly ancestory.

Heb 7:2 First, the name Melchizedek means “king of righteousness”; then also, “king of Salem” means “king of peace.” 3 Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, resembling the Son of God, he remains a priest forever.
​

Jesus has a mother, and a Father. God is the Father of Jesus, and Mary is the mother of Jesus, And Jesus has a genealogy, it's listed in Matthew.

.
Later Paul elaborates saying Jesus had a dual ancestory.

Heb 7:13 He of whom these things are said belonged to a different tribe, and no one from that tribe has ever served at the altar. 14 For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, and in regard to that tribe Moses said nothing about priests. 15 And what we have said is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears[Jesus], 16 one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is declared:
“You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.”​

Further Heb 9 says Jesus was the perfect sacrifice[God] from the perfect temple[heaven].

Heb 9:11 But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation.
​

Jesus is the new man, the new creation of God, the last Adam. so Jesus is not of this human creation, the first adam.

14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death,[c] so that we may serve the living God!

​

I am amazed at how often people in CF post insults thinking that makes their argument more intelligent. I find it a desperate act that more often proves ignorant the statements of the one who said it and not to whom it is said.

What insult. I stated words to the effect that I was surprised that so many people didn't know what beget and conceive meant. and you have proven that you do not know what the words mean. I was merely stating a fact. And it also appears that you are unable to comprehend what the word beget and conceive means.

Humans[edit]





Fertilization in humans. The sperm and ovum unite through fertilization, creating a zygote that (over the course of 8-9 days) will implant in the uterine wall, where it will reside over the course of 9 months.
Main article: Human fertilization

The term conception commonly refers to fertilisation, which is the successful fusion of gametes to form a new organism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fertilisation

More words related to beget

fertilize
verb. make ready to bear, produce
beget
breed

http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/beget/2

It's really surprising to me that you don't know what conceive and beget means. I had assumed everyone above the age of puberty knew what I quoted above. Your definition of beget and conceive does not in any way mean fertilize, thus you hve invented your own special definition of beget and conceive. As I said I believe God means what he says.. and when God says beget he means beget not what you change the word to.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

No you have just redefined the words beget and conceive. You do not know what the words mean.

You who mindlessly interchange conceive and beget claim to know what the words mean. Let me give you a suggestion. When trying to understand the Bible, don't rely on Wikipedia and a dictionary for understanding the definition of words.

Instead why don't you go to BibleGateway and search for beget/begot/begat and then do the same for conceive. If you would do this you would learn that begat ALWAYS refers to an action by the father. Conceive always refers to what happens in a female. Also learn that only men begat while animals can also conceive. This gives credible possibility to the idea that conceive is the creation of flesh, not spirit.

Regardless, scripture is very consistent in the use of beget vs. conceive. They are not interchangeable as you understand them. Beget refers to an action by a man. Conceive refers to the female.

I take God at his word when he said that he, God, the Holy Spirit, beget Jesus in mary. And I take God at his word when God said Mary conceived Jesus. I believe God knows what those words mean. You do not.

You fail at taking God at his word.
Scripture says the Holy Spirit conceived in Mary. Not God the Father and not begat. But you don't know the difference.

This thread is about when was the Son begotten of the Father.

Jesus has a mother, and a Father. God is the Father of Jesus, and Mary is the mother of Jesus, And Jesus has a genealogy, it's listed in Matthew.

Another fail. The genealogy in Matthew that uses the word begat lists the males to Joseph which is no part of Jesus' existence. The begetting of Jesus is not listed in any genealogy. Scripture only says the Holy Spirit conceived in Mary. Again Psalm 2 is about God the Father begetting his Son.

Jesus is the new man, the new creation of God, the last Adam. so Jesus is not of this human creation, the first adam.

One time you quote Jesus is like us in every way; now you say he is not of human creation. It looks like what you say changes for whatever argument you are addressing. My view is that scripture is in complete agreement and one should not have to ignore certain scripture or change their view at different places.

What insult. I stated words to the effect that I was surprised that so many people didn't know what beget and conceive meant. and you have proven that you do not know what the words mean. I was merely stating a fact. And it also appears that you are unable to comprehend what the word beget and conceive means.
Fertilisation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Beget Synonyms, Beget Antonyms | Thesaurus.com
It's really surprising to me that you don't know what conceive and beget means. I had assumed everyone above the age of puberty knew what I quoted above. Your definition of beget and conceive does not in any way mean fertilize, thus you hve invented your own special definition of beget and conceive. As I said I believe God means what he says.. and when God says beget he means beget not what you change the word to.

I am surprise how much you want to dwell on man's definition of conception and beget.

I guess it is because you want to ignore the largest part of my argument that Jesus is different from us in that he existed in Spirit before being born of Mary. You have said nothing about this. Maybe you don't believe Jesus' Spirit existed before he was born. Your silence on this aspect is ignoring the greatest part of Jesus, his part that was God, his Spirit.

 

[2ducklow]

You who mindlessly interchange conceive and beget claim to know what the words mean. Let me give you a suggestion. When trying to understand the Bible, don't rely on Wikipedia and a dictionary for understanding the definition of words.

Instead why don't you go to BibleGateway and search for beget/begot/begat and then do the same for conceive. If you would do this you would learn that begat ALWAYS refers to an action by the father. Conceive always refers to what happens in a female. Also learn that only men begat while animals can also conceive. This gives credible possibility to the idea that conceive is the creation of flesh, not spirit.

all you have shown is that biblegateway , like you, doesn't understand what the word beget means. Bible gateway, like you, are redefining the English words beget and conceive to fit your theology. You guys refuse to accept the truth that beget means fertilizing a female egg , and conceive means having a female egg fertilized. I use English dictionaries to understand English translations of the word of God. if the greek word translated beget doesn't mean what the English word beget means then it should be translated with a word that means what it means.

Regardless, scripture is very consistent in the use of beget vs. conceive. They are not interchangeable as you understand them. Beget refers to an action by a man. Conceive refers to the female.

I didn't say they were interchangeable. but they do refer to the same event. You just fail to comprehend what I am saying.

You fail at taking God at his word.
Scripture says the Holy Spirit conceived in Mary. Not God the Father and not begat. But you don't know the difference.

No you are reading false translations of matthew 1.20.

matthew 1.20But, when, these things, he had pondered, lo! a messenger of the Lord, by dream, appeared to him, saying,—Joseph, son of David! do not fear to take unto thee Mary thy wife, for, that which, in her, hath been begotten (G1080), is of [the], Holy, Spirit.

G1080 γεννάω is the exact same word in matthew 1.2 where it says Abraham beget Isaac.

.
Matthew 1:2 Abraham begat G1080) Isaac, and Isaac begat (G1080) Jacob, and Jacob, begat (G1080) Judah and his brethren;

G1080 γεννάω - Strong's Greek Lexicon Number


γεννάω
to beget, engender

G1080 ?????? - Strong's Greek Lexicon
ANd the holy Spirit is God, and God is God the Father, so there.

This thread is about when was the Son begotten of the Father.


Another fail. The genealogy in Matthew that uses the word begat lists the males to Joseph which is no part of Jesus' existence.

And God is listed as the one who begat Jesus in Mary in the genealogy of Jesus.

1 The genealogy of Christ from Abraham to Joseph
matthew 1.1
The Lineage Roll of Jesus Christ,—Son of David, Son of Abraham

http://qbible.com/ebr-rotherhams-emphasized-bible-1902/matthew/1.html#1

and since Mary is listed in Jesus genealogy it proves that Mary was a descendant of David. thus Jesus is a direct descendant of David, who was begotten by god.

The begetting of Jesus is not listed in any genealogy. Scripture only says the Holy Spirit conceived in Mary. Again Psalm 2 is about God the Father begetting his Son.

no you are in error again. matthew 1.20 says the Holy Spirit begat Jesus.

One time you quote Jesus is like us in every way; now you say he is not of human creation. It looks like what you say changes for whatever argument you are addressing. My view is that scripture is in complete agreement and one should not have to ignore certain scripture or change their view at different places.

It looks that way to you because you do not understand me. Jesus is of the seed of David, Jesus is a shoot of David a descendant of Davids seed. You should know that.

Jesus is the new creation of God. God created new human male seed that he beget (fertilized) Mary's egg with. thus Jesus is the last adam, the new creation of God. This is why Jesus is called the firstborn of all creation, and the beginning of the creation of God, and the firstborn of many brethren. Jesus is like our half brother, he came from Mary's egg which is the first adam, but on the male side he didn't come from the first adam, he came from new male seed that God created, thus making Jesus a new creation, and a brethren of us also.

what about you, you say Jesus isn't like us in every way, then I show you scripture that clearly states that Jesus is like us in every way.

I am surprise how much you want to dwell on man's definition of conception and beget.

and i'm not surprised that you ignore the definitions of English words in English dictionaries. It's pretty common in the Christian world. God used the word that bible translators translate as beget, I am right in assuming that they translated it correctly unless proven otherwise. you go by your theology to redefine English words to makescripture fit your theology. I take the words god used to mean what they mean and develop my theology around what God said.

I guess it is because you want to ignore the largest part of my argument that Jesus is different from us in that he existed in Spirit before being born of Mary. You have said nothing about this. Maybe you don't believe Jesus' Spirit existed before he was born. Your silence on this aspect is ignoring the greatest part of Jesus, his part that was God, his Spirit.

That theology is just a bunch of nonsensical goobeldy goop. It's almost like commenting on this. Lwwojthngewpokrgjwirtw.

Jesus is the new creation of God, the new man, the last adam, a sinless man , the son of god, begotten of God ,and conceived of Mary. he is our redeemer because he agreed to go to the lake of fire in our place for all eternity. He paid the price for our salvation. a man like unto us his brethren. Jesus didn't exist before he was born, 1 pet. 1.20 says so.

1 pet. 1.20 Foreknown, indeed, before the foundation of the world, but made manifest at a last stage of the times, for the sake of you
and

heb 3.1Whence, holy brethren, partners, in a heavenly calling, attentively consider the Apostle and High—priest of our confession—Jesus
Hebrews 3:2 As one, faithful, to him who made him: as, Moses also, in [all] his house(Rotherham)

you can't be foreknown unless you don't exist, except of course in nonsensical theology such as yours. and heb. 3.2 says God made Jesus. the word translated made also means create, and it's the same word used in the Septuagint in gen. 1.27 where it says God made adam (the first adam). well the same exact word is used in heb. 3.2 to say God created the last adam as well.

Jesus was faithful to the one who created him, just as moses was. heb. 3.1-3

 

[RevelationTestament]

you can't be foreknown unless you don't exist, except of course in nonsensical theology such as yours.

Sure you can. You are foreknown to the world before the existence of the world. We are foreknown in spirit before being created as a soul with flesh.

and heb. 3.2 says God made Jesus. the word translated made also means create, and it's the same word used in the Septuagint in gen. 1.27 where it says God made adam (the first adam). well the same exact word is used in heb. 3.2 to say God created the last adam as well.

Using the Septuagint as translation authority is terrible exegesis. It is often wrong as for instance when it translates El Shaddai as the Almighty God when in Hebrew the Almighty God is El Gibbor.

Jesus was faithful to the one who created him, just as moses was. heb. 3.1-3

Hebrews says nothing of the kind.

 

[2ducklow]

Sure you can. You are foreknown to the world before the existence of the world.

that is just total nonsense. if you mean by world the earth, the earth knows nothing. if you mean by world the world system, the world system didn't know of me or know me. you guys are always saying stuff like this and pretending like it actually makes sense. I don't know how you guys can do that..

We are foreknown in spirit before being created as a soul with flesh.

more nonsense. what you are advocating is reincarnation.

Using the Septuagint as translation authority is terrible exegesis.

I used it to show that the word in question is translated as create in some places. Here's another source , Elliot's commentary, claiming that some say it means create.

Verse 2

(2) Who was.—Rather, as being; or that He was. Not merely, fix your thought on Jesus; but also (and especially), think of Him as faithful to God (Hebrews 2:17).

Appointed him.—Literally, made Him, an expression which some ancient (Ambrose and other Latin fathers,—apparently also Athanasius) and many modern writers have understood as relating to the creation of the human nature of our Lord. It is probable, however, that 1 Samuel 12:6 is in the writer’s mind. “It is the Lord that made Moses and Aaron, and that brought your fathers up out of the land of Egypt.” As there Samuel speaks of the raising up of Moses and Aaron, constituted by God deliverers of the people; so here our thought must rest on Him who constituted Jesus “Apostle and High Priest.”

http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/ebc/view.cgi?bk=heb&ch=3#1

the only reason he says create a human soul is because of his Jesus is God doctrine, otherwise he'd just say create Jesus, which is what
god did and which is what the word means, create or make. He even says it literally means make, but of course they change it from make to appoint because they have to take out of the bible scripture that says God made Jesus. no problem, just change the word of God which is what most all bible translations do for heb. 3.2. You guys are slick at changing the word of God.

It is often wrong as for instance when it translates El Shaddai as the Almighty God when in Hebrew the Almighty God is El Gibbor.

Hebrews says nothing of the kind.

you just didn't read what I posted, here it is again.

heb 3.1Whence, holy brethren, partners, in a heavenly calling, attentively consider the Apostle and High—priest of our confession—JesusHebrews 3:2 As one, faithful, to him who made him: as, Moses also, in [all] his house(Rotherham)

Jesus was faithful to the one who made him, just as moses was.

made, create , same thing. If God made you he created you.

 

[2ducklow]

Instead why don't you go to BibleGateway and search for beget/begot/begat and then do the same for conceive. If you would do this you would learn that begat ALWAYS refers to an action by the father. Conceive always refers to what happens in a female. .

an action? it's a fill in the blank definition. any action you want to attribute to God, such as yours, is what beget and conceve mean. PIck any action yu want and that's what beget means. you picked creation of a soul for conceive, and claim the holy spirit conceived, yet in this post you claim it's something a female does.

so god's action according to you, and the definition of beget is, according to you, the creation of a soul. so you define 'action' in your theological definition of beget as creation of a soul, thus you get,
beget means the action of God creating a soul by the Father.
according to you..
conceive means
creation of flesh in a woman by God, in a woman.



someone else will be able to invent his own special definition of beget and conceive just as you have with the fill in the blank definition given by Biblegateway. fill in the blank for 'what happens' (conceive) {your fill in the blank here is 'create flesh'} and for 'an action'(beget){your fill in the blank here is "create a soul'}

anything but what beget and conceive really mean.

 

[RevelationTestament]

that is just total nonsense. if you mean by world the earth, the earth knows nothing. if you mean by world the world system, the world system didn't know of me or know me. you guys are always saying stuff like this and pretending like it actually makes sense. I don't know how you guys can do that..

more nonsense. what you are advocating is reincarnation.

reincarnation is to live again in the world as another being or person. It speaks nothing of other worlds. Who will live in the new earth God will create? How can you not be forgiven in the world to come, if you do not live there again?

Jesus was faithful to the one who made him, just as moses was.

made, create , same thing. If God made you he created you.

You are in open rebellion against Jesus' own words that He had glory with the Father before the world was. Jesus' earthly body was created like ours but His Spirit always existed like ours.

Proverbs 9
4 Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man.

5 O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.

6 Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things.

7 For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.

8 All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.

9 They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.

10 Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold.

11 For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.

12 I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.

13 The fear of the Lord is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.

15 By me kings reign, and princes decree justice.

16 By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth.

17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.

18 Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness.

19 My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.

20 I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:

21 That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.

22 The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

32 Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways.

33 Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.

34 Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.

35 For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the Lord.

36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.


Hear the counsel of your Lord 2ducklow. He was there from the beginning of the earth with YHWH who raised Him up with Himself.

 

[2ducklow]

reincarnation is to live again in the world as another being or person.

reincarnation is living a second life as another animal. Living as a spirit before you lived as a human being qualifies as reincarnation to me. because you are being reincarnated in a different form.

It speaks nothing of other worlds. Who will live in the new earth God will create? How can you not be forgiven in the world to come, if you do not live there again?

I am forgiven right now. I think you are referring to some Mormon belief that I have no knowledge about.

You are in open rebellion against Jesus' own words that He had glory with the Father before the world was.

John 17.3 says that God the father is the only true God. john 17.5 quotes Jesus asking the Father for the glory of God's own self that he had before the world began. it doesn't say what you claim john 17.5 says. you misquote john 17.5 and use it to contradict verse 3.

then in john 17.22 Jesus gives us Christians the glory of God's own self that God gave to him in verse 5. So your interpretation and quote of john 17.5 is way off.
Adam lost the glory of God's own self before the world system began. and that glory was lost to mankind until Jesus came along with the right to restore the glory of God's own self to his body, the first adam.

john 17.3 And, this, is the age-abiding life, That they get to know thee, the only real God, and him whom thou didst send, Jesus Christ.
john 17.5And, now, glorify me—thou, Father! with thyself, with the glory which I had, before the world's existence, with thee.

nothing about shared glory in verse 5.

john 17.22And, I, the glory which thou hast given to me, have given to them, that they may be one, even as, we, are, one.—

Jesus' earthly body was created like ours but His Spirit always existed like ours.

Proverbs 9
4 Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man.

5 O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.

6 Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things.

7 For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.

8 All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.

9 They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.

10 Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold.

11 For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.

12 I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.

13 The fear of the Lord is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.

15 By me kings reign, and princes decree justice.

16 By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth.

17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.

18 Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness.

19 My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.

20 I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:

21 That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.

22 The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

32 Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways.

33 Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.

34 Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.

35 For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the Lord.

36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

Ephesians 1:4

just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him In love


1 Peter 1:20
For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you


Romans 8.29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Jesus and the saints were not known by god before we were born, we were foreknown.

Hear the counsel of your Lord 2ducklow. He was there from the beginning of the earth with YHWH who raised Him up with Himself.

read 1 pet. 1.20. Jesus was foreknown not know before the foundation of the world.. Jesus was there at the beginning because Jesus was foreknown by God at that time. If Jesus was literally there at the beginning of the earth, Jesus would have been known by god, not foreknown. foreknown sinks your boat.

 

[RevelationTestament]

I think you are referring to some Mormon belief that I have no knowledge about.

No, it's from the Bible Ducklow
Matthew 12:32
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

John 17.3 says that God the father is the only true God. john 17.5 quotes Jesus asking the Father for the glory of God's own self that he had before the world began. it doesn't say what you claim john 17.5 says. you misquote john 17.5 and use it to contradict verse 3.

I let the scripture stand for itself. I am not misquoting it:
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

1 Peter 1:20
For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you

Romans 8.29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Jesus and the saints were not known by god before we were born, we were foreknown.

read 1 pet. 1.20. Jesus was foreknown not know before the foundation of the world.. Jesus was there at the beginning because Jesus was foreknown by God at that time. If Jesus was literally there at the beginning of the earth, Jesus would have been known by god, not foreknown. foreknown sinks your boat.

To the contrary Proverbs 8 sinks your boat. It is Jesus talking there about being with YHWH at the beginning of the world.
Here is another one you ignore:
Isaiah 26:19
19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

Here Jesus is talking in Isaiah before He was born that they would rise with His dead body. Your whole theology sinks.

 

[2ducklow]

hummm getting nowhere with this guy

 

[Mark51]

As in a human time line, it is not known.

Colossians 1:15-17 indicates a reference points to creation.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

hummm getting nowhere with this guy

maybe sending your angels to make out with him would help. Wonder if protective underwear would repel them however.