When was Jesus begotten?

[thepromiseofgrace]

I didnt say it, scripture stands alone. Why did you think otherwise?

I'm not sure any scripture would say satan did the will of God.

 

[RevelationTestament]

Oh my. SEE, it IS possible for SOME to see the TRUTH.

Satan rebelled against God BECAUSE of Jesus Christ. When God created a SON and designated the SON to be instrumental in 'creation', Satan was envious and jealous that this honor was not given to HIM. So the catalyst that led to Satan's rebellion was Jesus Christ, the SON of God.

Scripture?

Satan doesn't HATE God, he HATES the Son. And has done everything within his power to usurp the authority of Christ. He has led the majority of those having lived on this planet to worship HIM as their creator instead of God and His Son.

Satan rejected the Father, so He hates Him too. Jesus followed the Father, so thwarted Satan's plan, and defeated Satan and death.
You are correct that there is a battle on earth between the two. Satan has continuously tried to usurp Jesus as our bright morning star that gives light to the world. Satan continuously sets up pagan gods to be worshiped as sun gods. The Roman emperors too took up this mantle and set themselves up as earthly representatives of the sun god.

The 'church' teaches that it was merely pride that led Satan to rebel. But that doesn't explain the REASON that Satan CHOSE the moment that he did. And it wasn't pride in thinking himself EQUAL to God. Satan KNOWS that he is NOT equal to God because he KNOWS that GOD is the 'creator'. What Satan KNOWS is that he is capable of influencing men to worship HIM instead of God. And that means that he is indeed capable of BEING 'the god' of all that worship HIM.

And think about this:

The Bible tells us that ONE THIRD of the angels in heaven followed Satan in his rebellion. WHY? What would be the REASON that ONE out of THREE of God's angels could possibly follow Satan?

What is an angel? Angel comes from the Greek word angelos or messenger. God as YHWH is the Word - angels are messengers of the Word. So it is plain that these spirits who followed Satan already existed or they couldn't have fallen. Let's review now. We have spirits preexisting the choice of whether to follow God's plan or not.

The answer is simple. Just as Satan believed that the honor of the 'creation of man' be HIS, so too did ONE third of God's angels. They felt JUST like Satan did. They felt that since Satan had been there all along, had reached the point of being the MOST accomplished angel, that God should have chosen Satan to be instrumental in 'creation'. They felt the same way about Jesus. They were envious and jealous that God 'created a son' and picked HIM to be the HEAD of man. They felt that Satan deserved this honor.

Satan and Jesus 'brothers'? I don't think so.

You just finished saying that Satan had become "the most accomplished angel." Do you believe that Michael and Jesus are brothers? Isn't Michael one of the chief princes?

I think that the ONLY begotten SON of God REPLACED Satan as the second most important entity in heaven. Something more akin to 'cousins'. I don't think that Jesus has any 'brothers' in heaven, (or hell).

Job 38:1 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

 

[he-man]

Oh my. SEE, it IS possible for SOME to see the TRUTH. Satan rebelled against God BECAUSE of Jesus Christ. When God created a SON and designated the SON to be instrumental in 'creation', Satan was envious and jealous that this honor was not given to HIM. So the catalyst that led to Satan's rebellion was Jesus Christ, the SON of God. Blessings, MEC

Genesis 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

What does Let them have dominion over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth mean? That the snake in Genesis was only a tool God used for the test of Adam and Eve and does not represent an actual demonic spiritual being.

God rules in t he Kingdom of men, not a demonic being.
Dan 4:17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.

Angels are immortal and cannot fall. The only war to be fought is in the future when death and sin are destroyed and evil presidents and world rulers are put in their proper places.

No angel has ever been cast out of heaven yet!
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Rev 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

 

[ihavefoundgod951]

42.Luke 1 장28절
The angel went to her and said Greetings you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.

42.Luke 1 장29절
Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be.

42.Luke 1 장30절
But the angel said to her Do not be afraid Mary you have found favor with God.

42.Luke 1 장31절
You will be with child and give birth to a son and you are to give him the name Jesus.

42.Luke 1 장32절
He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David

42.Luke 1 장33절
and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end.

42.Luke 1 장34절
How will this be Mary asked the angel since I am a virgin?

42.Luke 1 장35절
The angel answered The Holy Spirit will come upon you and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

42.Luke 1 장36절
Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age and she who was said to be barren is in her sixth month.

42.Luke 1 장37절
For nothing is impossible with God.

42.Luke 1 장38절
I am the Lords servant Mary answered. May it be to me as you have said. Then the angel left her.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Can anyone reconcile Jesus' own words in Matthew 22 with their understanding of when the Son of God was begotten? I don't think I have seen a post that is congruent with it yet. Jesus clearly states he was God's Son before David lived.

Whose Son Is the Messiah?​

Matthew 22:41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
42 “What do you think about the Messiah? Whose son is he?”
“The son of David,” they replied.
43 He said to them, “How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him ‘Lord’? For he says,
44 “‘The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet.”’
45 If then David calls him ‘Lord,’ how can he be his son?”​

 

[RevelationTestament]

Can anyone reconcile Jesus' own words in Matthew 22 with their understanding of when the Son of God was begotten? I don't think I have seen a post that is congruent with it yet. Jesus clearly states he was God's Son before David lived.

I don't see that here:

Whose Son Is the Messiah?​

Matthew 22:41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
42 “What do you think about the Messiah? Whose son is he?”
“The son of David,” they replied.
43 He said to them, “How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him ‘Lord’? For he says,
44 “‘The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet.”’
45 If then David calls him ‘Lord,’ how can he be his son?”​

I see Jesus saying David called Him Lord. I don't see Him saying here that He is God's Son. But I do believe there are plenty of other scriptures which state that He was sent to the world as God's only begotten Son.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

I see Jesus saying David called Him Lord. I don't see Him saying here that He is God's Son. But I do believe there are plenty of other scriptures which state that He was sent to the world as God's only begotten Son.

First, just because scripture says Jesus was the Son of God, it does not mean that the Son of God was begotten of the Father at his birth as Jesus. He could have been begotten of the Father anytime before being born of woman.

Looking at the Mat 22:41 verses, was Jesus' point that he was not a son or that he did not come after/originate a descendant of David? It is clear that Jesus was teaching of his eternal existence, that he is Lord and that he existed before David. It is ancillary that Jesus acknowledges that he is a son. Jesus did this when he asked "whose son is he" as opposed to "is he David's son?" Jesus does not refute being a son only David's son.

John the Baptist also acknowledges Jesus' existance before being born.

John 1:30 This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because
he was before me.’​

So it is clear from scripture that Jesus' Spirit existed before being born. This brings together two scriptures.
1) Jesus is the Son of God.
2) Jesus is the Son of Man.

The OP question is when did God the Father "beget" his Son?

To me it is clear that he was begotten of the Father before being born from Mary and the Holy Spirit. Begotten of the Father is a spiritual principal. Born of a woman is a fleshy worldly existence. The spiritual is the greater and more deserving of a decree in heaven by the Father.

 

[RevelationTestament]

First, just because scripture says Jesus was the Son of God, it does not mean that the Son of God was begotten of the Father at his birth as Jesus. He could have been begotten of the Father anytime before being born of woman.

I entirely agree.
Maybe the point of Mary being a virgin was to emphasize Jesus was not begotten at the time of His birth. Indeed the scriptures notably state He was conceived rather than begotten... yet we still have people trying to foist this interpretation on His birth.

Looking at the Mat 22:41 verses, was Jesus' point that he was not a son or that he did not come after/originate a descendant of David? It is clear that Jesus was teaching of his eternal existence, that he is Lord and that he existed before David. It is ancillary that Jesus acknowledges that he is a son. Jesus did this when he asked "whose son is he" as opposed to "is he David's son?" Jesus does not refute being a son only David's son.

Well, Jesus was trying to make a scriptural point - that He was David's Lord...

John the Baptist also acknowledges Jesus' existance before being born.

John 1:30 This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because
he was before me.’​

Or that he is saying that Jesus comes before him in authority, and is his Lord.

So it is clear from scripture that Jesus' Spirit existed before being born. This brings together two scriptures.
1) Jesus is the Son of God.
2) Jesus is the Son of Man.

The OP question is when did God the Father "beget" his Son?

To me it is clear that he was begotten of the Father before being born from Mary and the Holy Spirit. Begotten of the Father is a spiritual principal.

So do you agree that it was by covenant?

Born of a woman is a fleshy worldly existence. The spiritual is the greater and more deserving of a decree in heaven by the Father.

But exactly when was Jesus begotten. We agree that it was before Jesus was born on the earth. So when did the Father say to Him, "thou art my Son, this day I have begotten thee?" Do you consider it possible that Jesus was literally raised again as The Acts says: anistemi Ieosus anistemi?
Thank you for your input. While we are a little different on the details we do seem to agree that Jesus was already the Son before He was born, and that He was spiritually begotten before then.
Cheers

 

[daq]

First, just because scripture says Jesus was the Son of God, it does not mean that the Son of God was begotten of the Father at his birth as Jesus. He could have been begotten of the Father anytime before being born of woman.

This statement is by the mouth of Yeshua himself:

Matthew 11:11 KJV
11. Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Either Messiah is not "born of a woman" or Yochanan is greater, (if one upholds this statement).
The least in the kingdom of the heavens comes not from a woman but a seed, (of the Word+faith).

 

[he-man]

John the Baptist also acknowledges Jesus' existance before being born. John 1:30 This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’
So it is clear from scripture that Jesus' Spirit existed before being born. .

Clear as MUD!
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto Him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Jn 1:30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.

Jn 1:27 He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose.

Lk 3:16 John answered, saying unto all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

Act 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being on the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

he that cometh after me; for Christ came into the world after John; he was born six months after him; he came after him to be baptized by him, and attended on his ministry; and came later into the public ministry than he did, [GILL]

God, as I now warn you; for he was before me in the prophecy - he was from eternity in the plans of God..
And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Eph 1:22


.

 

[2ducklow]

Can anyone reconcile Jesus' own words in Matthew 22 with their understanding of when the Son of God was begotten? I don't think I have seen a post that is congruent with it yet. Jesus clearly states he was God's Son before David lived.

Whose Son Is the Messiah?​

Matthew 22:41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
42 “What do you think about the Messiah? Whose son is he?”
“The son of David,” they replied.
43 He said to them, “How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him ‘Lord’? For he says,
44 “‘The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet.”’
45 If then David calls him ‘Lord,’ how can he be his son?”​

son is the greek word uios G5207.

G5207 υἱός - Strong's Greek Lexicon Number

υἱός
a "son" (sometimes of animals), used very widely of immediate, remote or figuratively, kinship

Thayer:

1) a son
1a) rarely used for the young of animals
1b) generally used of the offspring of men
1c) in a restricted sense, the male offspring (one born by a father and of a mother)
1d) in a wider sense, a descendant, one of the posterity of any one,

G5207 υἱός - Strong's Greek Lexicon Number

obviously Jesus is a son of David in the sense he is a descendant of David, through Mary his mother.

the answer is obvious. Jesus is the son of God and the son of Mary. those are the only two choices one can make. And david calls his son (descendant) Lord because Jesus, his son, is Lord of Lords by acclamation of God. The answer is a nobrainer.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

And david calls his son (descendant) Lord because Jesus, his son, is Lord of Lords by acclamation of God. The answer is a nobrainer.

So what is your nobrainer answer when the Son by acclamation of God the Father was begotten before he was born flesh of the Holy Spirit and Mary?

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

John the Baptist also acknowledges Jesus' existance before being born.
John 1:30 This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because
he was before me.’

Or that he is saying that Jesus comes before him in authority, and is his Lord.

That makes no sense as an argument. I will rewrite your version of John 1:30

"A man who is lower in authority than me has surpased me because he was greater in authority than me."​

As an argument it is without any "witness", therefore proving nothing. It only presents a convincing argument when after and before are read as pertaining to time. This fits my understanding of Mat 22:41 of Jesus saying he existed before King David.

So do you agree that it was by covenant?

Yes, I wrote at length about Hebrews 5 connecting Psalm 2 with Psalm 110. Hebrews 7 explicitly says it is an oath. Look at my post 455.

But exactly when was Jesus begotten. We agree that it was before Jesus was born on the earth. So when did the Father say to Him, "thou art my Son, this day I have begotten thee?" Do you consider it possible that Jesus was literally raised again as The Acts says: anistemi Ieosus anistemi?

My best guess of when God the Father made the oath was on the day Adam and Eve sinned; for it was on that day man needed a ruler and savior, and that was also the time of the first promise of a savior.

I don't believe that the Son was born of flesh, died and was raised more than once.
I do believe he appeared in various forms in the Old Testament times though.

Hebrews 9:26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Thank you for your input. While we are a little different on the details we do seem to agree that Jesus was already the Son before He was born, and that He was spiritually begotten before then.
Cheers

Yes, we are in agreement here, but we have not discussed what it means spiritually begotten.

I think this is where we differ. I would not say that God the Father's oath "today I have begotten you" is the forming of the Son's Spirit. I think it as God the Father assigning a new name associated with new responsibilities being given to the Word/Logos.

This is the only way I can reconcile two scriptures: that the Word existed before creation and on a day/"today"/after creation the Son was "begotten".

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

This statement is by the mouth of Yeshua himself:

Matthew 11:11 KJV
11. Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Either Messiah is not "born of a woman" or Yochanan is greater, (if one upholds this statement).
The least in the kingdom of the heavens comes not from a woman but a seed, (of the Word+faith).

So how do you reconcile your riddle?

I look at Mat 11:22 as being a comparison between man's natural state and his glorified state. It teaches that the glorified state is much greater than the natural state of man. To emphasize how much greater heaven is from earth, Jesus said the least in heaven is greater than the greatest on earth.

As an example, Jesus lifted up John the Baptist as being the greatest man. Your argument is over the word Jesus used for earthly beings as opposed to heavenly beings. We have the words recorded in scripture "born of woman". It should be clear it means people of earth; those people that had their origin on earth.

Even though Jesus is born of a woman, he is in a different class than all other people. For his spirit was not created on earth at conception and later born of woman. His Spirit is from heaven, his flesh is from woman. This is why scripture has used something instead of someone in reference to Jesus. This differentiates Jesus as unique among men, for he was both God and man. We are just men.

Note that your same riddle appears again when Jesus compared himself with King Solomon, whom God declared to be the wisest man to ever live. Just like your Mat 11 verse, Jesus is in a different class than us. He is greater than John the Baptist and he is wiser than King Solomon.

1 Kings 3:12 [God said]I will do what you have asked. I will give you a wise and discerning heart, so that there will never have been anyone like you, nor will there ever be.

Matthew 12:42 [Jesus said] The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon’s wisdom, and now something greater than Solomon is here.

 

[RevelationTestament]

That makes no sense as an argument. I will rewrite your version of John 1:30

"A man who is lower in authority than me has surpased me because he was greater in authority than me."​

I was reading it more along the lines of:
John 1:30 This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me[in authority].’

As an argument it is without any "witness", therefore proving nothing. It only presents a convincing argument when after and before are read as pertaining to time. This fits my understanding of Mat 22:41 of Jesus saying he existed before King David.

If coming before John in time made Jesus surpass John, then Moses would surpass Jesus - so I don't see it. i see it as a play on words which was common in the Hebrew language.

Yes, I wrote at length about Hebrews 5 connecting Psalm 2 with Psalm 110. Hebrews 7 explicitly says it is an oath. Look at my post 455.

right on brother!
Wow. I can't say how rare this is! Not many see this it seems - maybe because they aren't looking!

My best guess of when God the Father made the oath was on the day Adam and Eve sinned; for it was on that day man needed a ruler and savior, and that was also the time of the first promise of a savior.

I don't believe that the Son was born of flesh, died and was raised more than once.

Hebrews 9:26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

He would be breaking His own law if He died twice on this earth - why would He need to do that?
Hebrews 9:27
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

I do understand my question could be confusing. But I definitely do not believe Jesus needed to make an atonement more than once. So how can one resolve Acts 13 which essentially states that Jesus was begotten when He was raised and says He was raised again?

I do believe he appeared in various forms in the Old Testament times though.
Yes, we are in agreement here, but we have not discussed what it means spiritually begotten.

Ok. Hebrews says he was begotten by an oath of the priesthood. Do we agree on that?

I think this is where we differ. I would not say that God the Father's oath "today I have begotten you" is the forming of the Son's Spirit. I think it as God the Father assigning a new name associated with new responsibilities being given to the Word/Logos.

Well, I essentially agree with this so we don't seem to have a major difference here either. Being begotten as the Son was associated with being made perfect and becoming the author of our eternal salvation according to Hebrews - so definitely a change in His responsibilities. I don't think of the Son as a name, but I suppose it is or a title of His office so to speak. Nor do I see it as relating to "the forming of the Son's Spirit." I believe His spirit existed and He offered it to His Father in covenant, and hence received the oath, and was raised. He was sent into the world as the only begotten of the Father and raised again.
1 John 4:9
9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

This is the only way I can reconcile two scriptures: that the Word existed before creation and on a day/"today"/after creation the Son was "begotten".

And what if He was begotten before the creation? Is it possible He was raised up to the Father as a resurrection in a prior creation? That this is when He became the Word and the author of our salvation? Did you notice the 2 witnesses of Revelation are resurrected? Who will be resurrected with them? What does Christ mean by Matthew 19:28 "And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel?"
Is He speaking of the new heaven and the new earth?

As an aside no matter your conviction I just want to thank you for sharing your thoughts. In my years of discussing this issue, I don't think I have met another with whom I share so much on this topic. It is a pleasure to discuss this with you.
Cheers

 

[2ducklow]

So what is your nobrainer answer when the Son by acclamation of God the Father was begotten before he was born flesh of the Holy Spirit and Mary?

Another easy nobrainer. A person, human being is begotten and conceived 9 months before he or she is born.

I'm thinking you probably have no idea when you were begotten and conceived. As for me I'm certain that I was begotten and conceived 9 months before I was born. I use to think most everyone knew that but after being in CF I realize most people are unaware of that fact. Or perhaps incapable of understanding it. Not sure which. Reminds me of a dream I got from God tues. night last. I was racing the devil across the western united states in the mid 1800's and I lost the race to the devil because my wagon got bogged down in mud several times and my hound dog wouldn't do what I told him to do. My ole hound dog just ran around in circles and he would stop and look at me and not undertand a word I was sayng, and he would just keep on running around in cirlces while I was a screamin at him to stop running around in cirlces and do what I told him to do. Oh man that dog was so stupid. well there
s a lot more to the dream , the conclution of it was when God told me that I would always win if I always let God make the decisions. It's something I'm putting in to practice now.

 

[daq]

So how do you reconcile your riddle?

I look at Mat 11:22 as being a comparison between man's natural state and his glorified state. It teaches that the glorified state is much greater than the natural state of man. To emphasize how much greater heaven is from earth, Jesus said the least in heaven is greater than the greatest on earth.

As an example, Jesus lifted up John the Baptist as being the greatest man. Your argument is over the word Jesus used for earthly beings as opposed to heavenly beings. We have the words recorded in scripture "born of woman". It should be clear it means people of earth; those people that had their origin on earth.

Even though Jesus is born of a woman, he is in a different class than all other people. For his spirit was not created on earth at conception and later born of woman. His Spirit is from heaven, his flesh is from woman. This is why scripture has used something instead of someone in reference to Jesus. This differentiates Jesus as unique among men, for he was both God and man. We are just men.

Note that your same riddle appears again when Jesus compared himself with King Solomon, whom God declared to be the wisest man to ever live. Just like your Mat 11 verse, Jesus is in a different class than us. He is greater than John the Baptist and he is wiser than King Solomon.

1 Kings 3:12 [God said]I will do what you have asked. I will give you a wise and discerning heart, so that there will never have been anyone like you, nor will there ever be.

Matthew 12:42 [Jesus said] The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon’s wisdom, and now something greater than Solomon is here.

It is not my riddle but rather a plain and simple clear emphatic statement from the mouth of Messiah which says: "Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than Yochanan the Immerser."

Either one believes it an adjusts his or her doctrine accordingly or one does not believe it.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

It is not my riddle but rather a plain and simple clear emphatic statement from the mouth of Messiah which says: "Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than Yochanan the Immerser."

Either one believes it an adjusts his or her doctrine accordingly or one does not believe it.

It is a riddle when your simple obvious answer is not congruent with other scriptures. You ignored the text about Jesus saying he was greater than Solomon. You ignore text from John the Baptist's mouth saying Jesus is greater than himself.

Jesus was born of woman and Jesus is greater than any that walked the earth including John the Baptist. Jesus is God and man, as such he is not in the same class as all other men and can not be compared to men. It would be like comparing the greatest monkey to a man.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Another easy nobrainer. A person, human being is begotten and conceived 9 months before he or she is born.

And so the fault of your simple understanding, comparing Jesus existence to yours. When a man and a woman conceive, they create a body and a soul. When the Holy Spirit conceived in Mary, it was the creation of flesh, not a soul. The soul of Jesus came down from heaven to the flesh of Jesus. This is what Hebrews means when it says Jesus was made lower for a little while.

Is there a word for creating a body, I think it conceive. Is there a word for creating a soul, I think it beget. If this is not accurate, than I know of no word for the creation of a body without the creation of a soul.

Is it possible for flesh to be created without a soul? Certainly, Jesus is an example of it. I have also postulated before, that the Nephilim did not have souls?

There are many scripture verses that speak to the Son of God existing before being born. John used the name Logos/Word for him at the time of creation. The Old Testament uses the Angel of the Lord. Sometimes it was just Lord. Regardless, Jesus existence did not start with his conception.

This thread was started with a quote of Hebrews 5:4-6. Everyone is fixated on verse 5 which is the OP question; "Today have I begotten thee". Verse 6 is ignored which teaches that this "calling" as stated in verse 4 is in the same order as Melchizedek . Read Heb 7 to learn that this means he is eternal and not of earthly ancestory.

Heb 7:2 First, the name Melchizedek means “king of righteousness”; then also, “king of Salem” means “king of peace.” 3 Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, resembling the Son of God, he remains a priest forever.
​

Later Paul elaborates saying Jesus had a dual ancestory.

Heb 7:13 He of whom these things are said belonged to a different tribe, and no one from that tribe has ever served at the altar. 14 For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, and in regard to that tribe Moses said nothing about priests. 15 And what we have said is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears[Jesus], 16 one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is declared:
“You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.”​

Further Heb 9 says Jesus was the perfect sacrifice[God] from the perfect temple[heaven].

Heb 9:11 But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation.

14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death,[c] so that we may serve the living God!
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I'm thinking you probably have no idea when you were begotten and conceived. As for me I'm certain that I was begotten and conceived 9 months before I was born. I use to think most everyone knew that but after being in CF I realize most people are unaware of that fact. Or perhaps incapable of understanding it. Not sure which.

I am amazed at how often people in CF post insults thinking that makes their argument more intelligent. I find it a desperate act that more often proves ignorant the statements of the one who said it and not to whom it is said.

 

[daq]

It is a riddle when your simple obvious answer is not congruent with other scriptures. You ignored the text about Jesus saying he was greater than Solomon. You ignore text from John the Baptist's mouth saying Jesus is greater than himself.

Jesus was born of woman and Jesus is greater than any that walked the earth including John the Baptist. Jesus is God and man, as such he is not in the same class as all other men and can not be compared to men. It would be like comparing the greatest monkey to a man.

Where have I said any such things? I neither said nor implied such things and neither have I ignored the remainder of the passage. In fact I have already incorporated the remainder of the passage into my doctrine. Even the same word for "greater", which is "meizon", meaning "greater", "elder", or both, (which is used in Matthew 11:11) is employed once again in Matthew 12:6. Therefore Yeshua is greater than Yochanan in my doctrine because Yeshua the Messiah is not "born of a woman", for as I quoted, Yeshua clearly, emphatically, and plainly states: "Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater-elder than Yochanan the Immerser." Therefore Yeshua is not born of a woman. That which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.