When was Jesus begotten?

[RevelationTestament]

Heb 5:4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.
Heb 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
Heb 5:6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

 

[Soulgazer]

Heb 5:4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.
Heb 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
Heb 5:6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Very good topic! I have some thoughts I will chime in later with.

 

[ChetSinger]

Before Jesus of Nazareth was born, he was the word of God and the wisdom of God.

Was there ever a "time" when God didn't have his word or his wisdom?

 

[Rescued One]

For I am a Father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.
Jeremiah 31:9

And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
Exodus 4:22

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Colossians 1

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Revelation 1:5

Heb. 1:8 God the Father says to the Son ‘your throne O’ God is forever and ever".

It's Bible study time.

 

[juleamager]

According to the Gospel of Saint John, Christ was begotten of the Father before all ages, the Logos and the God incarnate. As the Nicene-Constantinople Creed says, "and [I believe] in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages."

 

[Rescued One]

According to the Gospel of Saint John, Christ was begotten of the Father before all ages, the Logos and the God incarnate. As the Nicene-Constantinople Creed says, "and [I believe] in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages."

I agree that the Son was always the Son.

In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
1 John 4:9

 

[PaladinValer]

Heb 5:4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.
Heb 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
Heb 5:6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

God the Son is eternally begotten of the Father.

See the Nicene Creed.

 

[hedrick]

Classically, Christ is begotten twice, once before all worlds as the Logos, and once as a human being.

From the 2nd Council of Constantinople (the 5th ecumenical council):

"If anyone does not confess that God the Word was twice begotten, the first before all time from the Father, non- temporal and bodiless, the other in the last days when he came down from the heavens and was incarnate by the holy, glorious, God-bearer, ever-virgin Mary, and born of her, let him be anathema."

Heb 5:5 is a reference to Ps 2:7, where the King is begotten as God's son, presumably when he is chosen as king. Of course Christ became God's son both times, in different senses. But from the context in Hebrews it's pretty clear that this is speaking of "the days of his flesh," so it's referring to his human birth as the human Son of God.

 

[Soulgazer]

Historically, in the morass that was pre-catholic Christianity, there were movements that had "Christ" begotten at His baptism with His natural birth unknown. "The Gospel of the Lord" simply has Him appearing as a preacher and gaining rapid popularity. Acording to the RSV footnotes, some older versions of Luke kept the wording at His Baptism, "this day I have begotten you".
Some Christian writings say that He was "born of a virginal spirit" as common knowledge. This may have been picked up and reworked as His earthly mother being a virgin. The virgin birth was not mentioned in "the Gospel of the Lord", Mark or John. It first appears in the Gospel of Matthew. Catholic(small "c") scriptures such as the proto-evangelon leave no doubt that Mary was a virgin, withering Soleme's hand for attempting to physically test. A post Valentinian Gnostic fragment, maintains her physical virginity. Fact or superstition, it was pretty firmly established dogma by the middle of the second century.

'tis a matter of faith, not that of reason.

 

[RevelationTestament]

Before Jesus of Nazareth was born, he was the word of God and the wisdom of God.

Yes. He was sent to the world as the only begotten Son.

Was there ever a "time" when God didn't have his word or his wisdom?

There was a time when Christ was not the Son.
Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up (anistemi) Jesus(Iesous) again(anistemi) ; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

Acts 13:37 But he, whom God raised again(egeiro), saw no corruption.
38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets;
41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.
Matthew 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again(egeiro) the third day.
Matthew 17:23 And they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised again(egeiro). And they were exceeding sorry.


Hebrews 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

Hebrews 7:28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath [ie COVENANT], which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

 

[RevelationTestament]

God the Son is eternally begotten of the Father.

See the Nicene Creed.

Actually, the Nicene Creed says He was begotten before all worlds. Later it was changed to eternally begotten. I know at least one trinitarian who admits this is error.

 

[hedrick]

Actually, the Nicene Creed says He was begotten before all worlds. Later it was changed to eternally begotten. I know at least one trinitarian who admits this is error.

The original creed from Nicea didn't have that phrase at all, in either version. It was added in the first council of Constantinople, 381. That's the version we now say as the Nicene Creed. The text says "γεννηθέντα πρὸ πάντων τῶν αἰώνων," i.e. "begotten before all aeons." The Greek word aeon can be translated in different ways. "Before all worlds" is a legitimate translation. "Before time" would be as well, and is more likely what they meant.

"Eternally begotten" isn't a change in the text. It's an English interpretation of the original Greek. The traditional English translation is "before all worlds." The International Consultation on English Texts translated "eternally begotten." This is intended to be an explanation of what "before all aeons" means. It isn't intended to be a change.

Since the Nicene Creed was intended as a rejection of Arianism, it would make no sense to think of Christ as begotten at a specific point in time. After all, "there was a time when he was not" is the view they were rejecting. The phrase "before all time" almost certainly means that the Son was always with the Father. I believe this is what "eternally begotten" is intended to mean as well. My problem with "eternally begotten" is that it isn't normal English, and has a couple of possible understandings. But anyway, this is a question of translation. No one has changed the actual Creed.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Am glad to see people considering not just the words but the history behind why the words are used.

 

[RevelationTestament]

The original creed from Nicea didn't have that phrase at all, in either version. It was added in the first council of Constantinople, 381. That's the version we now say as the Nicene Creed. The text says "γεννηθέντα πρὸ πάντων τῶν αἰώνων," i.e. "begotten before all aeons." The Greek word aeon can be translated in different ways. "Before all worlds" is a legitimate translation. "Before time" would be as well, and is more likely what they meant.

"Eternally begotten" isn't a change in the text. It's an English interpretation of the original Greek. The traditional English translation is "before all worlds." The International Consultation on English Texts translated "eternally begotten." This is intended to be an explanation of what "before all aeons" means. It isn't intended to be a change.

Since the Nicene Creed was intended as a rejection of Arianism, it would make no sense to think of Christ as begotten at a specific point in time. After all, "there was a time when he was not" is the view they were rejecting. The phrase "before all time" almost certainly means that the Son was always with the Father. I believe this is what "eternally begotten" is intended to mean as well. My problem with "eternally begotten" is that it isn't normal English, and has a couple of possible understandings. But anyway, this is a question of translation. No one has changed the actual Creed.

"there was a time when he was not" was actually a phrase used by Tertullian, the so-called "father of Latin Orthodoxy." Arianism ended up concluding that Christ was a creation of the Father. This is not true. Christ was begotten into the office of the Son. He existed to hear the oath to Him. Therefore, it is not referring to His birth upon the earth. He was already the Son at His baptism. So if one believe Acts, that He was raised again, the day that He heard the oath was at His prior resurrection in a prior world.

The phrases "eternally begotten" or "begotten before all worlds" are not scriptural either way.

 

[PaladinValer]

Actually, the Nicene Creed says He was begotten before all worlds. Later it was changed to eternally begotten. I know at least one trinitarian who admits this is error.

The Creed was not changed. It merely is a different translation of the same.

Before all worlds implies eternal.

It is a dynamic equivalency instead of a formal equivalency translation.

 

[RevelationTestament]

The "English" version of the creed was changed.

 

[Phantasman]

The Creed was changed and added to at Constantinople in 381. It added incarnation by the Holy Ghost of the virgin Mary, a description of the Holy Spirit and added a belief in one holy catholic and apostolic church, plus a few other descriptive add ons.

 

[ChetSinger]

Yes. He was sent to the world as the only begotten Son.

There was a time when Christ was not the Son.

As Hedrick has posted, orthodox belief includes two "begettings".

 

[PaladinValer]

As Hedrick has posted, orthodox belief includes two "begettings".

Just because he says so?

The word "beget" means "to sire"; "to procreate as a father"

Was the Son born of the Father more than once?

No. He was begotten of the Father before all worlds. His Incarnation birth is not a begetting, since He was already begotten of the Father and it was a virgin birth of St. Mary the Theotokos. A birth from a mother is not a beget; a woman cannot be a father.

Beget - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Mine is orthodox; there is no two begettings of the Son by the very fact that beget deals only with fathers and that the Incarnation's birth was virgin.

 

[PaladinValer]

The "English" version of the creed was changed.

False. I just showed how; "before all worlds" implies eternal, since eternity was all there was before creation; because it is outside the material realm. Time and space are one, remember? God is outside of it, and "before all worlds" means before creation.

Please learn that dynamic equivalencies are still valid translations. Otherwise, you will always have to translate "quantos anos tienes" as "how many years do you have" instead of "how old are you".