When two worldviews collide.

[Landon Caeli]

any rejection of transgenderism is taught. It's not automatic.

If that were true (which it isn't), then people would also reject premarital sex, and divorce.

...Please explain why people reject transgenderism but not premarital sex or divorce? My argument is that conservative people reject the same things their natural instincts rejected when they were very young, but those who are unhappy with their upbringing, tend to adopt progressive ideals.

 

[Bradskii]

If that were true (which it isn't), then people would also reject premarital sex, and divorce.

...Please explain why people reject transgenderism but not premarital sex or divorce?

People reject transgenderism because they don't accept the concept of gender. They don't reject premarital sex because either their hormones are overriding any possibility of a negative outcome or they have consciously decided that there are none. And they don't reject divorce because they understand that some partnerships don't last.

I don't have a problem with transgenderism because I do understand and accept that there are differences in how people consider their gender. I don't reject pre marital sex as long as reasonable precautions are taken to avoid an unwanted pregnancy. That was valid for me when I was young and was the attitude we took with our children when they were young. And I don't reject divorce because I have seen couples drift apart after many years together and forcing them to remain married seems absurd.

 

[Landon Caeli]

People reject transgenderism because they don't accept the concept of gender. They don't reject premarital sex because either their hormones are overriding any possibility of a negative outcome or they have consciously decided that there are none. And they don't reject divorce because they understand that some partnerships don't last.

I don't have a problem with transgenderism because I do understand and accept that there are differences in how people consider their gender. I don't reject pre marital sex as long as reasonable precautions are taken to avoid an unwanted pregnancy. That was valid for me when I was young and was the attitude we took with our children when they were young. And I don't reject divorce because I have seen couples drift apart after many years together and forcing them to remain married seems absurd.

While your post is very respectful, I don't think it gets to the very root of the problem. IMO, the global rejection we see suggests something more than just a misunderstanding.

I think we need to ask ourselves *why* so many people don't accept the concept of gender. I think there is a definite link between common morality and human instinct that occurs in nature, that begins early during childhood, and carries on into adulthood for most.

 

[o_mlly]

Remember, we can describe behaviour in a factually correct manner without any moral judgements...

James shot David. That's something we can be factually right or wrong about without ever discussing the morality of the act.

The morality of all human acts can (and should be) judged.

As rational beings, human acts have an end-in-view. The mere physicality of an act does not describe a human act.

"James shot David" with an end-in-view to stop David from murdering James has one moral judgement; "James shot David" with an end-in-view to steal David's money has the opposite moral judgement.

 

[o_mlly]

I think we need to ask ourselves *why* so many people don't accept the concept of gender.

Not too long ago, in English the word "gender" simply assigned one of three grammatical categories, ie., male, female or neuter, to a noun. (The French, I came to learn had only two categories, eg., "windows" are not neuter but feminine.)

The all-inclusive "woke" crowd hijacked this perfectly good word to describe an ephemeral human attitude rather than a category. How many genders are there in the "woke" dictionary remains an unanswered question.

 

[Landon Caeli]

Not too long ago, in English the word "gender" simply assigned one of three grammatical categories, ie., male, female or neuter, to a noun. (The French, I came to learn had only two categories, eg., "windows" are not neuter but feminine.)

The all-inclusive "woke" crowd hijacked this perfectly good word to describe an ephemeral human attitude rather than a category. How many genders are there in the "woke" dictionary remains an unanswered question.

I think it could be a mistake to assume that re-educating kids and adults, using woke terms, is going to change public opinion on transgenderism. My own daughter, for example, who goes to public school and has been fully indoctrinated in wokism, is harshly anti-LGBTQ... when we went to the San Diego zoo a few weeks ago, she was very vocal about her distaste for the rainbow flags and the homeless transgender's we saw pushing carts.

I held the same view when I was 12, and no amount of reasoning could ever change my mind. I'm convinced that it's a natural human instinct to reject it, and I think Thomas Aquinas would agree according to his Natural Law philosophy.

It's going to be long hard battle to convince humanity to alter it's instinctual nature, if it's even possible.

 

[Landon Caeli]

The light of reason is placed by nature [and thus by God] in every man to guide him in his acts.

The natural law is promulgated by God: "God has instilled it into human minds so as to be known by them naturally."

~ Thomas Aquinas

 

[o_mlly]

I held the same view when I was 12, and no amount of reasoning could ever change my mind. I'm convinced that it's a natural human instinct to reject it, and I think Thomas Aquinas would agree according to his Natural Law philosophy.

I note that those who embrace or promote normalizing transgenderism use not reason but their feelings to do so. Those ruled by their passions will not understand Aquinas.

 

[rjs330]

While your post is very respectful, I don't think it gets to the very root of the problem. IMO, the global rejection we see suggests something more than just a misunderstanding.

I think we need to ask ourselves *why* so many people don't accept the concept of gender. I think there is a definite link between common morality and human instinct that occurs in nature, that begins early during childhood, and carries on into adulthood for most.

I think he is incorrect. I know if no one that rejects the concept of gender. Everyone accepts the concept. What is rejected is the metaphysical concept that gender is non-binary and fluid. The idea that gender is a spectrum and is fluid is a metaphysical concept that is not tied to reality. We all fully accept that there is no specific standard for maleness or femaleness. In other words that all males or females MUST act or perform in specific ways or like the same things to be male or female. It is understood that a male may certainly enjoy things or do things that may be typically associated to females and females may enjoy or do things typically associated to males. But those things do NOT make them male or female.

I know women who love to fish and watch football. I know men who don't like sports and enjoy cooking and cleaning. Which has no bearing on their gender.

So bottom line I think everyone accepts the concept of gender. We just don't accept the metaphysical argument that a person is what they feel they are despite evidence to the contrary. And no one can offer a definition of gender without referring to the binary biological sex.

Yes gender exists. We all recognize it as existing.

 

[rjs330]

I note that those who embrace or promote normalizing transgenderism use not reason but their feelings to do so. Those ruled by their passions will not understand Aquinas.

Yes, feelings are paramount in the ideology. Yet I find it interesting that I have yet to find anyone who can tell me what it feels like to be a man or a woman. What does a man feel like? What does a woman feel like?

You can read accounts of transgender people who say they felt like opposite sex. But they never explain that. They always refer to likes and dislikes. Performative issues. And how does a man feel like a woman? No one has been able to explain it. I've asked men on this forum what a man feels like and how they know they are a man. They can't answer it.

And since when do feelings have any bearing on reality? My feelings have nothing to do with my height, weight, or race or ethnicity. They have no bearing on my species. So why do feelings have anything to do with the reality if I'm male or female?

Now I certainly understand that people DO feel they are the opposite sex. Which is a mental health disorder. Which has no bearing on reality. Mental health disorders are an mental illness and need to be treated as such. We as a society need to do a much better job of understanding people with any mental health problems. Compassion for their plight and a willingness to help them. But compassion does not require us to accept their reality as reality.

And people with a mental health issue shouldn't try to impose their reality on everyone else.

 

[Bradskii]

I think we need to ask ourselves *why* so many people don't accept the concept of gender. I think there is a definite link between common morality and human instinct that occurs in nature, that begins early during childhood, and carries on into adulthood for most.

I think you're right. But accepting the concept of gender is not a moral position. That there is a difference between massculine and feminine, and that the terms are social constructs depending on time and place is a given. The moral position is accepting or rejecting someone who finds that their concept of their own gender is different to their biological sex.

 

[Bradskii]

I think it could be a mistake to assume that re-educating kids and adults, using woke terms, is going to change public opinion on transgenderism. My own daughter, for example, who goes to public school and has been fully indoctrinated in wokism, is harshly anti-LGBTQ...

That's a shame. Although I was the same. I grew up to quite conservative parents in a very conservative area at a very conservative time. My attitude to to gay people was abominable. Yet I didn't know any better. I was a reflection of my upbringing. I didn't even know any Gay people. God help anyone who came out at that time in my neck of the woods.

But then I moved away from home. And my attitudes were challenged. I met people who were gay and...gee, they were just like everyone else. And I began to realise that most of what I had been told and what I thought was complete nonsense. It's hard to 'reject lgbtq' when some of your good friends are gay. On what basis could I reject them? That they were sexually attracted to people of the same sex? I had no right to do that.

 

[stevevw]

I think in some ways culture is a particular indoctrination of a basic moral sense we all know. In that sense all cultural beliefs that move away from this common moral sense are indoctrination if indoctrination means enforcing some belief contrary to our innate and natural state of being and our natural moral state of being is associated with our ability to know the suffering of others (Golden rule) and that we are also rational beings.

We can see this by how cultures that move away from this common morality seem to also be devoid of humanity. Uncaring, robotic, pathological in their behaviour. We have an idea of what is a virtious person and they don't meet that. When we hear the cries of the weak and innocent we know in our hearts that this is not right.

So in that sense we can say that any culture that doesn't display these common core morals is immoral.

I think because people think in relativist terms today that it automatically means we cannot say that certain cultural practices are immoral because we must tolerate differences. But this doesn't follow.

 

[stevevw]

I think you're right. But accepting the concept of gender is not a moral position. That there is a difference between massculine and feminine, and that the terms are social constructs depending on time and place is a given. The moral position is accepting or rejecting someone who finds that their concept of their own gender is different to their biological sex.

But what about those people who think accepting gender identity is a moral issue. They may not reject the person as an objectively real persons but just not accept the subjective aspect of that person being real in that it suplants objective reality.

Thats why I think its not as simple as saying its not about morality and that the idea of massculine and feminine are social constructs. For one if they are social constructs then it should not matter. Social constructs should not dictate anyones reality because they are something that is made up and can come and go.

Also I think some behaviours that we say are massculine and feminine like boys playing with trucks and girls with dolls has some biological basis. This is where I think the facts need to be determined and not just think in terms of everything beings a social or human construction. The truth matters in morality and the facts can help us understand what is actually going on to then determine whether its moral or not.

 

[Bradskii]

But what about those people who think accepting gender identity is a moral issue. They may not reject the person as an objectively real persons but just not accept the subjective aspect of that person being real in that it suplants objective reality.

Morality is concerned with harm. If you do something that causes harm or you do not do something that results in harm then it's a moral matter. If someone is biologically one sex but considers their gender not to align with that sex then...what's the problem?

Thats why I think its not as simple as saying its not about morality and that the idea of massculine and feminine are social constructs. For one if they are social constructs then it should not matter. Social constructs should not dictate anyones reality because they are something that is made up and can come and go.

That's something of a naive statement. My daughter was determined not to push either of her kids (boy and a girl) in one direction or another when it cameto interests. But if she says she's dropping one at rugby training and the other at ballet then you've already made an assumption which kid is going to each

Also I think some behaviours that we say are massculine and feminine like boys playing with trucks and girls with dolls has some biological basis. This is where I think the facts need to be determined and not just think in terms of everything beings a social or human construction.

Maybe it would be best to class it as a societal expectation rather than a construction. But the second feeds off the first.

 

[Bradskii]

I think because people think in relativist terms today that it automatically means we cannot say that certain cultural practices are immoral because we must tolerate differences. But this doesn't follow.

Of course it doesn't. But we're back to harm. Allowing two people of the same sex to marry does no harm. Genital mutilation of a young girl does.

 

[rjs330]

Thats why I think its not as simple as saying its not about morality and that the idea of massculine and feminine are social constructs. For one if they are social constructs then it should not matter. Social constructs should not dictate anyones reality because they are something that is made up and can come and go.

That's absolutely correct. The idea of what is masculine and what is feminine is definitely social and often dictated by culture. It has nothing to do with what a male is or a female is. There are some universal things that are typically male and typically female, but nothing is a 100% universal. But we are strictly talking about personalities that might contradict a social norms. But in reality who cares?

Who cares if a male likes ballet or a female likes to drive semi trucks. It has nothing to dole if they are a male or female or not, however what locker room or shower they use, what sport they play or what pronoun they use. That is reserved for sex and not personal likes.

 

[rjs330]

Morality is concerned with harm. If you do something that causes harm or you do not do something that results in harm then it's a moral matter. If someone is biologically one sex but considers their gender not to align with that sex then...what's the problem?

There is no problem if someone considers that they are the opposite sex. Particularly if they are an adult. They can consider whatever they want. The harm comes from the demand that everyone else conforms to their metaphysical sense of reality as reality. That's how women are harmed, children are harmed, employees are harmed, even the person themselves could suffer harm even though it may be self inflicted.

Morality would attempt to prevent that if possible. Harm IS being done by this ideology. But bottom line there is no problem with a person considers themselves as a member of the opposite sex. Anymore than there is any problem with white person identifying as a black person, or a short person considering themselves to be tall or a thin person thinking they are over weight.

 

[Bradskii]

There is no problem if someone considers that they are the opposite sex. Particularly if they are an adult. They can consider whatever they want. The harm comes from the demand that everyone else conforms to their metaphysical sense of reality as reality.

So your argument is: 'It harms me, therefore it's immoral'.

So calling Mary from accounts 'he' is preventing you from being harmed. OK...I think we all got that.

 

[rjs330]

So your argument is: 'It harms me, therefore it's immoral'.

So calling Mary from accounts 'he' is preventing you from being harmed. OK...I think we all got that.

Isn't that the argument you are making? It's all about the individual? A transperson says if you don't use the pronouns I want it's harming me. If you don't let me, a man, shower with a woman it's harming me.

Kind of funny you would use that argument.

I'm referring to society as a whole. Harming women and children and men as a whole society. Forcing others to lie is harmful to everyone. Calling yourself a woman when you are a man is no problem except for you and you alone. Making everyone else do it is harmful to them by forcing them to lie to support a metaphysical feeling and not a reality. It's like demanding someone refer to you as African American when you are a white Irishman. They'd be lying.