When two worldviews collide.

[Pommer]

It seems to me many societies have flourished with a variety of notions about what is natural in terms of sex and gender.

The “morals” that one are exposed to when they are growing up seem to be the “norm” for some people and cannot imagine another or different set of morals every existing because they’ve convinced themselves that the morals they’ve “decided” are “correct” will always seem to have “always been” correct.

Aztec morals are not our morals.

 

[FireDragon76]

The “morals” that one are exposed to when they are growing up seem to be the “norm” for some people and cannot imagine another or different set of morals every existing because they’ve convinced themselves that the morals they’ve “decided” are “correct” will always seem to have “always been” correct.

Aztec morals are not our morals.

I was thinking about alot of east and south Asian cultures, that traditionally tolerated alot of sexual activities and gender norms that your average Evangelical Christian would consider immoral. And these societies weren't insignificant. At one time, the Khmer in modern day Cambodia had one of the largest cities in the world during the European middle ages, and at one time Edo era Tokyo was the world's largest city as well (in the 19th century).

 

[stevevw]

It seems to me many societies have flourished with a variety of notions about what is natural in terms of sex and gender.

Do you really think so. I mean I know people are free to be who they want to be. But sometimes that comes at a cost. I don't think we are truely free.

I think we have lost some value in life when we make feelings the most important thing. When self realization and fullfillment becomes everything. I think as in the past sacrifice and self denial was important. But now its seen as a weakness.

Though we think we are happier with our new found freedoms the truth is we are more miserable than ever. It seems to me that we are more divided than united. Now theres a culture war where society is divided into increasing numbers of identity groups who are becoming more antagonistic towards each other.

We may have gained more identities but we have lost our united identity as individuals made in Gods image..

 

[rjs330]

Do you really think so. I mean I know people are free to be who they want to be. But sometimes that comes at a cost. I don't think we are truely free.

I think we have lost some value in life when we make feelings the most important thing. When self realization and fullfillment becomes everything. I think as in the past sacrifice and self denial was important. But now its seen as a weakness.

Though we think we are happier with our new found freedoms the truth is we are more miserable than ever. It seems to me that we are more divided than united. Now theres a culture war where society is divided into increasing numbers of identity groups who are becoming more antagonistic towards each other.

We may have gained more identities but we have lost our united identity as individuals made in Gods image..

And there was no king in Israel and everyone did what was right in their own eyes.

When feelings become truth then there is no truth.

 

[FireDragon76]

Do you really think so. I mean I know people are free to be who they want to be. But sometimes that comes at a cost. I don't think we are truely free.

I think we have lost some value in life when we make feelings the most important thing. When self realization and fullfillment becomes everything. I think as in the past sacrifice and self denial was important. But now its seen as a weakness.

Though we think we are happier with our new found freedoms the truth is we are more miserable than ever. It seems to me that we are more divided than united. Now theres a culture war where society is divided into increasing numbers of identity groups who are becoming more antagonistic towards each other.

We may have gained more identities but we have lost our united identity as individuals made in Gods image..

I could potentially agree with alot of what you said but I don't see necessarily what that has to do with wider tolerance of LGBT people. Conservatives like Andrew Sullivan long ago made a good case for why gay marriage wouldn't ruin society, and it really hasn't as near as I can tell. As David French pointed out, no-fault divorce is something that has really changed America far more than gay marriage ever could. The stress points in our society long predate all these changes, anyways.

 

[stevevw]

I could potentially agree with alot of what you said but I don't see necessarily what that has to do with wider tolerance of LGBT people. Conservatives like Andrew Sullivan long ago made a good case for why gay marriage wouldn't ruin society, and it really hasn't as near as I can tell. As David French pointed out, no-fault divorce is something that has really changed America far more than gay marriage ever could. The stress points in our society long predate all these changes, anyways.

Yes easy divorce has led to a breakdown in marriages and family. But I also think SSM undermines the traditional definition of marriage which was the basis for a strong society.

 

[Pommer]

And there was no king in Israel and everyone did what was right in their own eyes.

Isn’t this the “ideal”?

When feelings become truth then there is no truth.

Feelings is our brains telling us that we “think correctly” (feel good) or “think wrongly” (feel “bad”).

Say one “sins”, (as people are wont to do, according to Christianity), and one is “convicted” by the Holy Ghost, is that a thought or a feeling; what makes “feelings” not worthy of being “truth”?

 

[rjs330]

Isn’t this the “ideal”?

No because that means there is no right or wrong. Doing whatever you want just because you think it's right for you is a terrible way to operate. It's why we have slavery, genocide and terrorism, murder, theft etc.

 

[FireDragon76]

No because that means there is no right or wrong. Doing whatever you want just because you think it's right for you is a terrible way to operate. It's why we have slavery, genocide and terrorism, murder, theft etc.

You don't think many terrorists didn't sincerely believe they were doing the right thing?

 

[rjs330]

You don't think many terrorists didn't sincerely believe they were doing the right thing?

Yes they did. That's the point. They did what was right in their own eyes. So no, that's not the ideal as I responded to Pommer. Perhaps you misunderstood.

 

[FireDragon76]

Yes they did. That's the point. They did what was right in their own eyes. So no, that's not the ideal as I responded to Pommer. Perhaps you misunderstood.

Islamic Jihadists do what they do because it was part of their religious ideology they believed in, which taught them it was right to do. Not dissimilar to the "objective" morality promoted by some Christians. Just because somebody believes something is objectively true because their religion says so, doesn't make it true. Knowledge claims are always bound up in claims to power, therefore claims to objective or absolute truth or values should be scrutinized carefully.

 

[Pommer]

No because that means there is no right or wrong. Doing whatever you want just because you think it's right for you is a terrible way to operate. It's why we have slavery, genocide and terrorism, murder, theft etc.

I believe you may be in error.
The ideal is that the “righteous will live by faith”, being tied to a bunch of rules and laws is the exactly opposite of that.

But it’s your religion, you work it that way you see fit, I guess.

 

[rjs330]

I believe you may be in error.
The ideal is that the “righteous will live by faith”, being tied to a bunch of rules and laws is the exactly opposite of that.

But it’s your religion, you work it that way you see fit, I guess.

Faith without works is dead. My friend I'm am most certainly not mistaken. We are not tied to rules and regulations. The way we live is a by product of our faith. Our works are PROOF of our faith. Unrighteous living is evidence of the lack of faith while righteous living is evidence of it.

We are not MADE righteous through our acts, for our rightness comes from our faith that Christ made us righteous.

Being righteous does not mean we do what's right in OUR eyes but do what's right in GODS eyes. A big difference that.

Put to death therefore what is earthly in you:[a] sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.

Those words were written to believers.

 

[rjs330]

Islamic Jihadists do what they do because it was part of their religious ideology they believed in, which taught them it was right to do. Not dissimilar to the "objective" morality promoted by some Christians. Just because somebody believes something is objectively true because their religion says so, doesn't make it true. Knowledge claims are always bound up in claims to power, therefore claims to objective or absolute truth or values should be scrutinized carefully.

Christianity does not teach terrorism. It's VERY dissimilar as it teaches the opposite. So yes things should be scrutinized according to the New Covenant. Even if a Christian says it. Because Christians too are not exempt from doing things that are right in their own eyes even though scripture opposes it.

We have no power. Christ has it all.

 

[FireDragon76]

Christianity does not teach terrorism. It's VERY dissimilar as it teaches the opposite. So yes things should be scrutinized according to the New Covenant. Even if a Christian says it. Because Christians too are not exempt from doing things that are right in their own eyes even though scripture opposes it.

We have no power. Christ has it all.

The underlying logic is the same... if the religion has a commandment from God to do something, and it's taught that commandment is normative and absolute, then people that adhere to that religion tend to want to find ways to fulfill that commandment.

 

[Landon Caeli]

What about morality of the conscience? What about the ethics of natural instinct?

Why do we have to pretend that kids, themselves, aren't the most strict dictators of cultural normality, as an instinct? Which carries on into adulthood?

...You can take a group of kids from any cultures found in the world, and they'll largely agree that homosexuality and transgenderism are taboo, whether they've been taught a religion or not. In fact, children are repulsed by the idea of sex, naturally, and that's how sex itself becomes a private matter, unlike other animals, because we all learned that by nature, when we were young, and it carried on into adulthood.

 

[Landon Caeli]

The “morals” that one are exposed to when they are growing up seem to be the “norm” for some people and cannot imagine another or different set of morals every existing because they’ve convinced themselves that the morals they’ve “decided” are “correct” will always seem to have “always been” correct.

Aztec morals are not our morals.

I disagree that children are blank slates. They seem to come with pre-downloaded notions already installed.

...To blame religious texts, and parents, seems like an over-reaction... It's overconfidence in the concept of "teaching".

 

[Landon Caeli]

In fact, to prove my hypothesis, I would be wiling to bet that in a potential poll, most progressives resent their childhoods/upbringing while most conservatives embrace their childhood/upbringing.

...Those most willing to cut ties with their own childhood would also be most willing to accept homosexuality and other new, progressive ideas, where conservatives retain their instincts learned from their youth. This would be an evolutionary beneficial trait as well, because it would auto-correct.

 

[Bradskii]

...You can take a group of kids from any cultures found in the world, and they'll largely agree that homosexuality and transgenderism are taboo...

Or heterosexuality. It's when their hormones kick in that things change. And any rejection of transgenderism is taught. It's not automatic.

 

[Bradskii]

The underlying logic is the same... if the religion has a commandment from God to do something, and it's taught that commandment is normative and absolute, then people that adhere to that religion tend to want to find ways to fulfill that commandment.

The story of Abraham is the most chilling in all literature. That anyone would do whatever they believe God has told them to do is difficult to come to terms with.