When two worldviews collide.

[Paidiske]

No, its not possible, you will have to make serious compromises and put your children into the hands of state, for example, while you work.

Not necessarily. Different models are possible. Right now I work full time and my husband works school hours (home schooling would not have been best for our child). In the past we've each worked part time and shared parenting. Never used formal childcare.

And it's not individualism, either. We're a team. And we're stronger together than either of us would be separately. But we're a team that recognises and celebrates the strengths we each bring, not limiting or pigeonholing based on gender.

 

[trophy33]

Not necessarily. Different models are possible. Right now I work full time and my husband works school hours (home schooling would not have been best for our child). In the past we've each worked part time and shared parenting. Never used formal childcare.

And it's not individualism, either. We're a team. And we're stronger together than either of us would be separately. But we're a team that recognises and celebrates the strengths we each bring, not limiting or pigeonholing based on gender.

You, your husband. Please, look at the society as a whole. At children today, without parents, not to say grandparents, without good examples, confused about roles, confused about dating, love, family, even about genders.

Your ideology does not work in a long term for a broader society. And it makes the majority of women (mothers, wives or wished-to-be-wives, daughters) unhappy. Because of some few activist women with crazy ideas to put structures down.

 

[Paidiske]

Please, look at the society as a whole. At children today, without families, without good examples.

I just don't believe the past was some idyllic place where things were better.

Your ideology ... makes the majority of women (mothers, wives or wished-to-be-wives, daughters) unhappy.

You'd better have robust evidence for a claim like that.

 

[trophy33]

I just don't believe the past was some idyllic place where things were better.

Nothing is ever "idyllic", but your society is more far away from that than more patriarchal or more traditional societies.

You'd better have robust evidence for a claim like that.

Stress overeating, obesity, antidepressants, divorces, single mothers, competing in jobs (not every woman has a comfortable talkative church work like you do, but they must compete 8 hours a day and then take care of children when they got home), drug abuse rate growing, crime rate growing...

Where is your feminist utopia? In what country? Why do you have higher rates of women killed than more patriarchal societies?

 

[Paidiske]

Nothing is ever "idyllic", but your society is more far away from that than more patriarchal or more traditional societies.

Not from this viewpoint.

Overeating, obesity, antidepressants, divorces, single mothers, competing in jobs (not every woman has a comfortable talkative church work like you do, but they must compete 8 hours a day and then take care of children when they got home), drug abuse rate growing, crime rate growing...

Where is your feminist utopia? In what country?

Your claim was that my ideology makes the majority of women unhappy. None of this supports that claim. (And by the way, the crime rate is actually dropping in Australia).

I'm not saying life is perfect; but it sure is better when we have agency and choices to navigate its imperfections.

 

[trophy33]

Your claim was that my ideology makes the majority of women unhappy. None of this supports that claim. (And by the way, the crime rate is actually dropping in Australia).

Of course it does. Just get out of your bubble and look at normal women, what they want and compare it to what feminism wants.

Look at women working in fast foods, in factories, in competitive jobs they burn out in, regretting they do not have time for their own children, that their marriages are destroyed.

Listen to their complaints that there are no good men who want to marry, anymore. Look at how the "sexual liberation" made them more promiscuous, but less satisfied.

 

[Paidiske]

Of course it does. Just get out of your bubble and look at normal women, what they want and compare it to what feminism wants.

Lol. Please don't try to tell me that you know better than I do what women want.

 

[trophy33]

Lol. Please don't try to tell me that you know better than I do what women want.

Because you are a woman (wait, can I say that? I am never sure how it works in your culture), then you must know better what other women want?

Am I unable to understand their language? Or are they willfully lying to me or to public?

 

[Paidiske]

Because you are a woman, then you must know better what other women want?

Because I am a woman, who has women friends, neighbours, relatives, colleagues, parishioners, and so on. Who talk to me about their lives, their desires, their hopes, their frustrations and their sorrows. Oh, and because I'm a moderator on a large parenting forum (which is far and away mostly women) and I get a pretty good cross-section of women from very different situations to my own. I'm not living in some bubble where I only ever talk to women like myself (far from it).

So yes, unless you bring some pretty robust evidence (like I said to someone up-thread, peer-reviewed journal article is a good starting point), I'm pretty confident that I have a better grip on what "normal" women want, than a single bloke who's trying to tell me patriarchy is the bee's knees.

 

[trophy33]

Because I am a woman, who has women friends, neighbours, relatives, colleagues, parishioners, and so on. Who talk to me about their lives, their desires, their hopes, their frustrations and their sorrows. Oh, and because I'm a moderator on a large parenting forum (which is far and away mostly women) and I get a pretty good cross-section of women from very different situations to my own. I'm not living in some bubble where I only ever talk to women like myself (far from it).

So yes, unless you bring some pretty robust evidence (like I said to someone up-thread, peer-reviewed journal article is a good starting point), I'm pretty confident that I have a better grip on what "normal" women want, than a single bloke who's trying to tell me patriarchy is the bee's knees.

I am a man who has woman friends, had girlfriends, listen to what women say in churches, workplaces, internet, I have the same kind of "evidence" as you do.

Top 20 Safest Countries in the World (2022 Global Peace Index — lower is better):
Iceland — 1.107
New Zealand — 1.269
Ireland — 1.288
Denmark — 1.296
Austria — 1.300
Portugal — 1.301
Slovenia — 1.316
Czech Republic — 1.318
Singapore — 1.326
Japan — 1.336
Switzerland — 1.357
Canada — 1.389
Hungary — 1.411
Finland — 1.439
Croatia — 1.440
Germany — 1.462
Norway — 1.465
Malaysia — 1.471
Bhutan — 1.481
Slovakia — 1.499

Why is even the most conservative country like Hungary safer than the progressive Australia? Do you want to tear its working structure down and "try something new"?

 

[Bradskii]

I hate to break it to you, but many women disagree. Most would prefer to have a functional family than a career.

The rate of employment for women in The Czech Republic is close to 70%. Above the EU average.

https://www.czso.cz/csu/czso/ari/rates-of-employment-unemployment-and-economic-activity-january-2023#:~:text=The%20employment%20rate,rate%20was%2068%2C8%25.

Then again, I don't have figures for what they might prefer. Maybe you do?

And male violence against women is not to be taken lightly. We're all keen on making the problem as small as it can possibly be. This is one of many ads that are regularly shown. Surely you think that's a good thing?

And I kid you not, there was a news report on as I was writing this that addressed the problem.

 

[trophy33]

The rate of employment for women in The Czech Republic is close to 70%. Above the EU average.

The vast majority of people (both men and women) work because they have to. Such statistics have nothing to do with happiness or preference.

For example, in Switzerland or Germany its much more common for women to stop working after they have children and to be stay-at-home mothers. But the salaries there allow for that, not so much in the Czech republic, so low to middle-class women must work more, there.

 

[Paidiske]

Why is even the most conservative country like Hungary safer than the progressive Australia?

It must have something to do with the 23 indicators they use to measure this. I can't find detailed information, but given that Australia has been continuously at war since 2001, I'm not surprised it's not topping a global peace index. That doesn't have much to do with feminism or gender-based violence, though.

 

[trophy33]

It must have something to do with the 23 indicators they use to measure this. I can't find detailed information, but given that Australia has been continuously at war since 2001, I'm not surprised it's not topping a global peace index. That doesn't have much to do with feminism or gender-based violence, though.

Gender-based violence, race-based violence, age-based violence... oh mine. Ideologies.

Good societal structure that creates firm families and communities will solve the most of that without any labeling. Coincidentally, the same structure you want to destroy.

 

[Bradskii]

I am a man who has woman friends, had girlfriends, listen to what women say in churches, workplaces, internet, I have the same kind "evidence" as you do.

Top 20 Safest Countries in the World (2022 Global Peace Index — lower is better):
Iceland — 1.107
New Zealand — 1.269
Ireland — 1.288
Denmark — 1.296
Austria — 1.300
Portugal — 1.301
Slovenia — 1.316
Czech Republic — 1.318
Singapore — 1.326
Japan — 1.336
Switzerland — 1.357
Canada — 1.389
Hungary — 1.411
Finland — 1.439
Croatia — 1.440
Germany — 1.462
Norway — 1.465
Malaysia — 1.471
Bhutan — 1.481
Slovakia — 1.499

Why is even the most conservative country like Hungary safer than the progressive Australia? Do you want to tear its working structure down and "try something new"?

Australia was 22nd. Which is not bad when you consider that, for example, the US wasn't even in the top 100, at 131. And please note that the index includes such details as government corruption, terrorism and international disputes. So I don't think it shows what you might have implied.

The safest countries in the world have been announced for 2023

The same country has topped this ranking since 2008 – can you guess where?

www.timeout.com

And Hungary has a serious domestic violence problem. See page 4 in this pdf which says that nearly 28% of women have experienced it.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.theadvocatesforhumanrights.org/Res/hungary_upr_vaw_stakeholder_report.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiHtd620vn_AhVUmlYBHW2JAfkQFnoECCoQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3d3KYIWihCKei-PRvMIA-g

Whereas in Australia it's less than 17% - which is still completely unacceptable: Domestic and Family Violence statistics | Mission Australia.

'1 in 6 women have experienced physical or sexual violence by a current or former partner...'

Your 'evidence' seems to point completely in the opposite direction than you thought.

 

[Bradskii]

Gender-based violence, race-based violence, age-based violence... oh mine. Ideologies.

Good societal structure that creates firm families and communities will solve the most of that without any labeling. Coincidentally, the same structure you want to destroy.

And you wanted to use Hungary as your go-to example? Not a great idea as it turned out.

 

[Paidiske]

Good societal structure that creates firm families and communities will solve the most of that without any labeling. Coincidentally, the same structure you want to destroy.

Evidence please. Because I've been working in the primary prevention of domestic violence for some time, and this is not what the research points to.

 

[trophy33]

Australia was 22nd. Which is not bad when you consider that, for example, the US wasn't even in the top 100, at 131. And please note that the index includes such details as government corruption, terrorism and international disputes. So I don't think it shows what you might have implied.

The safest countries in the world have been announced for 2023

The same country has topped this ranking since 2008 – can you guess where?

www.timeout.com

And Hungary has a serious domestic violence problem. See page 4 in this pdf which says that nearly 28% of women have experienced it.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.theadvocatesforhumanrights.org/Res/hungary_upr_vaw_stakeholder_report.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiHtd620vn_AhVUmlYBHW2JAfkQFnoECCoQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3d3KYIWihCKei-PRvMIA-g

Whereas in Australia it's less than 17% - which is still completely unacceptable: Domestic and Family Violence statistics | Mission Australia.

'1 in 6 women have experienced physical or sexual violence by a current or former partner...'

Your 'evidence' seems to point completely in the opposite direction than you thought.

And you wanted to use Hungary as your go-to example? Not a great idea as it turned out.

Safety cannot be reduced to only "safety for specific group under specific circumstances". But it must be regarded as safety for the society as a whole, men included.

If, for example, country A has less domestic violence, but more street violence than a country B, the country is not better off.

And I am saying that tearing down patriarchy is not helping in any way, actually the opposite is true - because without a structure you will have thousands of isolated fires without any unifying solution. The role of men will simply be put on police and the role of fathers on government.

 

[trophy33]

Evidence please. Because I've been working in the primary prevention of domestic violence for some time, and this is not what the research points to.

Evidence for what, for firm families and communities to be safer?

 

[Paidiske]

Evidence for what, for firm families and communities to be safer?

Evidence that building "firm families and communities" is an effective strategy to reduce domestic violence. Because as I say, what the research shows is that rigid gender roles, gender hierarchy and acceptance of violence are drivers of domestic violence; and firm families and communities in which those aren't challenged, are still going to have problems with domestic violence (it might just be more hidden).