When two worldviews collide.

[Bradskii]

I would have thought Marxism would have been defined by the writings of Marx.

You'd think so. But it's like 'wokeism.' It's used to describe most things that the far right don't like. Try to disassociate any given subject with Marxism and mention the Communist Manifesto for example and it's 'Wait...what? Somebody wrote a book about it? '

 

[Bradskii]

I never claimed not stated that Finlands practices were the best practices.

And you still haven't defined what man is.

You used them as an example of good practice. Likewise Sweden. And that good practice means, effectively, treating young people as individuals as regards the best action to be taken. But you disagree with what both countries are doing.

And I can't keep on defining what a guy is. See the previous posts for umpteen examples I gave. For heaven's sake, man...

 

[Bradskii]

Yeah, how will they identify then when all that is gone? Perhaps the focus should be on that for all of us now. We are not our vessels.

I reckon St. Peter will have his work cut out.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I thought you were claiming that trans activists were claiming that a person could actually become biologically a person of the other sex. If that's not what you meant, I'm sorry, but it really wasn't clear.

It's the same thing. If you deny biological sex is the dividing line between men and women....then you can make bizarre and untrue statements like "men can get pregnant" or "women have penises".

How did you imagine people made those kinds of leaps? They aren't keeping a grip on biological reality.

Of course I didn't, because I knew the backlash would be worse than putting up with it.

You'll have to forgive me for being skeptical then.

Feminism - or at least, several schools of feminism, and certainly those I lean towards - would argue that dismantling patriarchy ultimately benefits men as well.

I'm sure that's part of the rationalization process. Scapegoating rarely admits to hatred and instead claims that the group being blamed will benefit.

DEI does the same thing. "Your company will actually benefit from hiring a lot less white men". Turns out to not be true at all. Shocking.

Flourishing isn't too vague

It's entirely subjective. Someone could just decide their notion of flourishing is to have a tent in a park in LA where they shoot fentanyl for breakfast.

Ah, similar to how Calvin wasn't a Calvinist.

I'm not familiar with the metaphor.

I would be interested to read a Marxist take on social capital, actually, but right now would consider myself far too ignorant on that front to accept the label "Marxist.

It's not just you @Paidiske, our public schools have effectively redwashed history and eliminated any real understanding of Marxism and it's effects. I hate to use "gamer" terminology....but it's basically a method for speed running the downfall of society. I recall back in 2018 or so when Patricia Cullors admitted to being a "trained Marxist" I expected support for BLM to evaporate. Apparently, no one knew what that meant.

However, for those of us who do, all the familiar signs are there. I can list them for you if you want.

 

[timothyu]

It's the same thing. If you deny biological sex is the dividing line between men and women....then you can make bizarre and untrue statements like "men can get pregnant" or "women have penises".

How did you imagine people made those kinds of leaps? They aren't keeping a grip on biological reality.

What about those born with both male and female genitalia?

 

[Paidiske]

It's the same thing.

No, it's not. Being treated socially as a man (or woman) is not the same as becoming biologically male or female.

You'll have to forgive me for being skeptical then.

It's not just me. Even when we take out the usual arguments about different fields, or working less hours, there's still a gap. Eg. see here: Gender wage gap statistics: a quick guide

I'm sure that's part of the rationalization process. Scapegoating rarely admits to hatred and instead claims that the group being blamed will benefit.

Have a look at this study in the BMJ: Is patriarchy the source of men’s higher mortality? | Journal of Epidemiology & Community Health

It's entirely subjective. Someone could just decide their notion of flourishing is to have a tent in a park in LA where they shoot fentanyl for breakfast.

Well, no. I think at a bare minimum flourishing would consider wellbeing across a range of areas (physical, mental, social, and so on).

I'm not familiar with the metaphor.

Not so much a metaphor; an observation made by scholars in church history, that Calvin's views were not those later packaged up as "Calvinism."

It's not just you @Paidiske, our public schools have effectively redwashed history and eliminated any real understanding of Marxism and it's effects.

To be fair to public school here, I wasn't very interested in history and dropped it as soon as I could. (I recall a cutting remark in a report from a history teacher about my "cavalier" attitude). The only thing I really remember learning about communism is a remark from a (different) teacher that Chinese communists didn't care about protecting the environment, because they were more interested in making sure that every household had a baseline standard of living (I'm paraphrasing). Clearly some very sophisticated social analysis going on in that classroom!

 

[Sabri]

Logical. Personally I as a male have always shuddered at the thought of intimacy with a male yet I still have good male and female friends. It is in my nature to feel so since I was old enough toknow about such things. Who is to say it is any different for those who (in their inner nature) shudder at the thought of intimacy with the opposite gender? As to why some gender swap (many men are happy to remain effeminate without a thought of homosexuality and the reverse for women holds true) must somehow be connected to more than just aligning with their feminine or butchy inner selves, even though some who swap may still pursue what previously was their own sex. There is a lot more to this than what appears on the surface. I wonder if they will find happiness when the body is no longer an issue?

You are right the more is that it’s spiritual. It’s like in the Bible the man called a lunatic cut himself. Jesus came and cast the devils out of him. The fleshly man is directed by the spiritual man. Behaviors that go against the natural order of things come from spiritual attacks, demons. Some people don’t understand spiritual things so they feel it’s their own feelings making them desire the same sex. All of it adultery, for Nov action, pride etc comes from the spirit. A good spirit or evil spirit. Obviously it will be an evil spirit. Some people have these spirits attached to them from their youth. This is why we hear people say i felt like this from a young age. It takes a spiritual person to free them.

 

[timothyu]

Some people don’t understand spiritual things so they feel it’s their own feelings making them desire the same sex.

Is that why native americans call gay people two spirited? Or are they just referring to two mismatched genders in one body

 

[Sabri]

Is that why native americans call gay people two spirited? Or are they just referring to two mismatched genders in one body

Yes, native Americans are heavily involved in spiritual things. Specifically, spiritual enchantment’s and sorcery. Please Read

https://www.readingeagle.com/article_755b987c-108b-5d0b-8d84-a08aab0cff44.html/

 

[timothyu]

Specifically, spiritual enchantment’s and sorcery

Their own version of transubstantiation?

 

[Sabri]

Is that why native americans call gay people two spirited? Or are they just referring to two mismatched genders in one body

Their own version of transubstantiation?

Hmmm. I’m not sure i see the comparison. Elaborate? I guess if you look at it from two opposing forces. This is the ways world to emulate the things of God

 

[timothyu]

Elaborate?

You said... "Yes, native Americans are heavily involved in spiritual things. Specifically, spiritual enchantment’s and sorcery. "

transubstantiation (n.)​

late 14c., "change of one substance to another," from Medieval Latin trans(s)ubstantiationem (nominative trans(s)ubstantio), noun of action from past participle stem of trans(s)ubstantiare "to change from one substance into another," from Latin trans "across, beyond" (see trans-) + substantiare "to substantiate," from substania "substance"

 

[rjs330]

Here's the thing: people who do all those things know - in a bone-deep, gut-deep way that perhaps none of the rest of us know, since we don't live with the physical toll of it - that they can only approximate the biology of the other sex; and that they do so, not so that they "become" the other sex, but so that their bodies are more congruent with their own sense of identity.

They are definitely trying to become the opposite sex. They are altering their biological physical body to literally try to become the opposite sex to the best of their ability. Id k ow if you are correct or not in that they know bone deep that they are not and cannot become the opposite sex. If gender is only an identity then they are altering their biological physical sex. So gender is NOT different than biological sex. It's the same thing. They believe they are the opposite sex so they alter physical bodies to coincide with what they believe.

Maybe they do know deep down they can never achieve their goals or desires. I think that a large part of their suffering. Why they still harm themselves because they know no matter what they do that can never be what they want which to be the opposite biological sex. That's why gender and sex are the same thing. If it were only an identity, a state of mind, they would be no need to alter the biological body. Their entire identity does not rest on who they are but on everyone else affirming who they are. Their mental illness can never be resolved. And mental illness that says they can only be healthy when all of society bends to their desires and acknowledges, affirms, that they are indeed the opposite biological sex is an illness that can never be satisfied. Because it doesn't depend on them it depends on all of society.

This tells us how deep this goes. The ones that are truly dysphoric are suffering deeply. It tells you how deeply they are affected when they are unable to really be happy with themselves no matter what they do. They have to have everyone else around them support them, affirm them and change the way society has existed for them. They have to have the language changed in order to try and find satisfaction. This tells us just how deeply disturbed they are. How deeply ill they are. And while we should have compassion on them, compassion does not mean we alter our way of life for them. It does not mean we alter language for them. It does not mean we sacrifice other peoples lives and well being for them.

I also believe those folks are very far a few between. Research and statistics have shown that 80-90% of kids grow out of the gender feelings. And since they do there is NO way to know which ones will and which ones won't. Medical doctors are the ones diagnosing this often and they have no crystal ball to be able to tell when a young or teen girl comes to them and claims to be transgender if she will grow out of it. Psychologists can't predict it either. And this is why it's immoral and unethical for anyone to trans a child. There is no way to accurately know the future.

And as far as groups are concerned, I don't give a hoot really if any group wants to be an open group. It's your group. Allow in whomever you want to allow in. It's called freedom. If you want to have a woman's group who allows men in it, be my guest. It's a free country. Honestly is the same thing as pronouns etc. If you want to call a he a she, go ahead. No one should stop you. It should be a completely voluntary choice.

The problem comes when you have a group that is a woman's group and you don't want transwomen in the group and you are harassed about it. Or if you don't want to use certain pronouns and are harassed or fined or fired over it. Or you don't want men in the women's showers and are harassed or sued or whatever over it. Because transwomen or trans men are not actually men or women.

As I've said a hundred times. If as an adult if you want to transition, be my guest. I won't stop you nor will I ask a government to stop you even if I feel 18 is still too young due to brain development. I talk in wisdom not in law. It's wise to wait, but I don't need a law. This is born out by the growing regret and detransition rates. That perhaps this is not the wisest approach.

But if you do transition, you have to take on the responsibilities of that decision and consequences of it and not demand everyone else suffer the consequences for your choices. Even though sometimes that's inevitable in some fashion. But there are definitely consequences that society as a whole should not suffer for you. Maybe those close to you might have to deal with some consequences like a wife who now suddenly has to deal with a husband who she married and she thought was a man is now claiming to be a woman. It's called being an adult.

 

[rjs330]

I have sometimes wondered how things will be different for them in the resurrection. Clearly the distress will be gone, but apart from that...?

They won't have any distress at all. All illnesses will be removed. It's no different than a schizophrenic being resurrected. That will be gone.

 

[rjs330]

You used them as an example of good practice. Likewise Sweden. And that good practice means, effectively, treating young people as individuals as regards the best action to be taken. But you disagree with what both countries are doing.

And I can't keep on defining what a guy is. See the previous posts for umpteen examples I gave. For heaven's sake, man...

I claimed they were better because they were moving away from Wpath. All those countries have moved on from Wpath because they recognized the failures of WPATH research and SOC. I never one time states that Finland was the best practice. I said they were better. The best practice is to not trans the kids period. And at least one of the countries was doing that as far as I knew. If it's changed and they are still transing kids, I believe it would be wrong to do so.

But at least they are doing better than they were and far better than the Wpath SOC and affirmative care models.

No you haven't defined what a man is. You talked in circles and asked if I was referring to gender or sex. You never actually gave a definition.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Logical. Personally I as a male have always shuddered at the thought of intimacy with a male yet I still have good male and female friends. It is in my nature to feel so since I was old enough toknow about such things. Who is to say it is any different for those who (in their inner nature) shudder at the thought of intimacy with the opposite gender? As to why some gender swap (many men are happy to remain effeminate without a thought of homosexuality and the reverse for women holds true) must somehow be connected to more than just aligning with their feminine or butchy inner selves, even though some who swap may still pursue what previously was their own sex. There is a lot more to this than what appears on the surface. I wonder if they will find happiness when the body is no longer an issue?

Though you're only speculating....I think you've hit upon the core of the issue.

There are a couple of patterns present in trans activism that are part of the reason why I despise these activists....

1. Lying about, to the point of catastrophizing the frequency and severity of the dangers they face should they not be given the special privileges they demand. The examples of a murder rate that's blatantly dishonest and a childhood suicide rate that's entirely fabricated.

2. A tendency to give away the true goal too quickly. You may recall demands to use the restrooms of their choice well before issues of pronoun use. The bathroom issue stalled though (pun intended) and despite claims of violent assault in restrooms...they simply weren't happening. Focus was placed upon pronouns and accusations of bigotry....which gained more traction, and led to them gaining ground on the bathroom issue. Why would bathrooms be first before pronouns ever? If this was an issue based in identity....pronouns should have always been first.

The answer was soon apparent to anyone paying attention. The accusations of bigotry were so effective in the bathroom arguments that they followed it up with the end goal....instead of a logical sequential step. They said...

"if you are attracted to women, but won't date a trans woman, you're a bigot/transphobe."

If you recall the activists making this argument, then you probably recall it falling flat immediately. It wasn't long before they dropped it....because it gave away the rest of the activism. They didn't want access to bathrooms because they were getting beaten up in the men's room. They wanted access to bathrooms because they ruin all attempts at passability when they are on a date and are required to use the restrooms are destroyed. They aren't offended by pronouns....pronouns are used when they aren't around. By changing language....the facade is maintained when the trans person isn't around if pronouns are respected.

Indeed, really every demand is related to passability. You might think that it's odd that passability is such a high concern of the trans activists. Consider however, that when left untreated, most children with gender dysphoria resolve into a stable homosexual identities. Then consider who they desire relationships with...

Are Trans People Excluded from the World of Dating?

New research explores the extent to which trans people are excluded from dating.

www.google.com

87.5% of people gay, straight, trans, whatever...want nothing to do with trans people.

Broken down further....we see that the vast majority of trans women for example, want relationships with a cis heterosexual masculine men. Trans men want relationships with cis heterosexual women...but both cis heterosexual men and women overwhelmingly want nothing to do with trans people.

Trans people face a sort of dual problem of wanting what they cannot have and wishing to be something they cannot be. Looked at in this light, it's easier to understand the endless desire for surgery that's ultimately not solving any problem....if it's motivated by a desire for a partner you cannot have.

What about those born with both male and female genitalia?

Not relevant. They don't typically identify as trans. They aren't arguing that they constitute their own gender. They aren't their own sex....they can't reproduce.

 

[Sabri]

You said... "Yes, native Americans are heavily involved in spiritual things. Specifically, spiritual enchantment’s and sorcery. "

transubstantiation (n.)​

late 14c., "change of one substance to another," from Medieval Latin trans(s)ubstantiationem (nominative trans(s)ubstantio), noun of action from past participle stem of trans(s)ubstantiare "to change from one substance into another," from Latin trans "across, beyond" (see trans-) + substantiare "to substantiate," from substania "substance"

I know the definition of transubstantiation. I didn’t understand the comparison but like i said most of the things in the world spiritual rituals are usually emulated from what happens in the church

 

[Ana the Ist]

No, it's not. Being treated socially as a man (or woman) is not the same as becoming biologically male or female.

Ok....even if this were the issue, even if this were what is happening, this still doesn't make any sense at all.

Why the difficulty defining man and woman then? Why the demand to invade biologically segregated spaces?

And what do you mean by "treated socially"? If a trans woman tells me she's "expecting" and shows me a severely distended belly....am I supposed to ask if this person has chosen any names yet?

It's not just me. Even when we take out the usual arguments about different fields, or working less hours, there's still a gap. Eg. see here: Gender wage gap statistics: a quick guide

Ok....so when I say my nation has no legitimate purpose for a feminist movement, and your nation has no legitimate purpose for a feminist movement....you respond with information on the international gender pay gap.

So I'll just point out again, we have no need for a feminist movement.


https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parlia...ary_Library/pubs/rp/rp2021/Quick_Guides/Wages

Have a look at this study in the BMJ: Is patriarchy the source of men’s higher mortality? | Journal of Epidemiology & Community Health

I'm sorry...what factor are they measuring to rate the "level of patriarchy" in these nations?

I'm trying not to simply dismiss it for being a ridiculous premise and instead take it seriously.

https://jech.bmj.com/content/59/10/873

Well, no. I think at a bare minimum flourishing would consider wellbeing across a range of areas (physical, mental, social, and so on).

Well like I said, flourishing is an entirely subjective concept.

Not so much a metaphor; an observation made by scholars in church history, that Calvin's views were not those later packaged up as "Calvinism."

Again, I don't know the reference. Marx actually said "I'm not a Marxist" for one of two likely reasons.

1. He knew he was full of nonsense.
2. He knew that the average adherent to Marxism had no idea what they were actually following.

To be fair to public school here, I wasn't very interested in history and dropped it as soon as I could. (I recall a cutting remark in a report from a history teacher about my "cavalier" attitude). The only thing I really remember learning about communism is a remark from a (different) teacher that Chinese communists didn't care about protecting the environment, because they were more interested in making sure that every household had a baseline standard of living (I'm paraphrasing). Clearly some very sophisticated social analysis going on in that classroom!

I've heard very little explanation of Mao's contributions to Marxism in many of the history texts that bother mentioning the man at all. I even recall one source stating "Mao made no significant contributions to Marxism and Marxist theory". I recall another pointing out that he advanced equal rights for women.

This is probably why Hitler is regarded as the 20th century's greatest monster....despite Mao's policies killing 100-200 million.

 

[Paidiske]

And while we should have compassion on them, compassion does not mean we alter our way of life for them. It does not mean we alter language for them.

How real is our compassion, if we are not willing that it should cost us anything?

Why the difficulty defining man and woman then? Why the demand to invade biologically segregated spaces?

Because if what you want is for trans people to be accepted socially as people of the opposite sex, without question, then language and space use would need to reflect that.

And what do you mean by "treated socially"?

I mean behaving towards that person as if they belong to the group with which they identify.

Ok....so when I say my nation has no legitimate purpose for a feminist movement, and your nation has no legitimate purpose for a feminist movement....you respond with information on the international gender pay gap.

No, I gave you Australian information, which shows that (even when things like equal qualification and hours worked are taken into account) there's still a gap.

I'm sorry...what factor are they measuring to rate the "level of patriarchy" in these nations?

The rate at which men kill women. Which you'd know if you'd read the first few lines.

This is probably why Hitler is regarded as the 20th century's greatest monster....despite Mao's policies killing 100-200 million.

My observation would be that overall, western curricula tend to overlook Asian history except where it impacted on the west.

 

[timothyu]

"if you are attracted to women, but won't date a trans woman, you're a bigot/transphobe."

I won't buy a Ford either.