When two worldviews collide.

[Mountainmike]

And yet SteveW is in Brisbane Australia, and people in Australia are very much free to be Christian.

Would you care to provide me with a source that shows that it is illegal for Christians to adopt children in the UK?

Again, would you care to show me a source to support your claim about the illegality of this?

The Nazis literally had "God is with us" as part of their uniform. Don't pretend they were atheists.

When did I say that being an atheist automatically meant having a moral code?

That's hilarious. Here's a list of some of the atrocities that took place due to Christianity. The Right-Wing Doesn't Want to Talk About Christian Atrocities, So Let's Talk About Christian Atrocities

Stop trying to derail the thread.

You are looking at history through the lens of your faith, and you are getting a distorted and inaccurate view.

You do not know what you are talking about. I am an atheist and I certainly do not hold such views.

I am not going to go blow for blow:

What I said is mostly self evident, and the rest is easily discoverable with a little research.

Whilst the line between illegal and persecuted is a fine one, it is certainly illegal to bring bibles into some countries and Christianity is de facto illegal in others, Try Nigeria for many Christian’s killed for being Christian. Today.

But it is creeping into so called civilised countries.

in contemporary U.K. a woman was indeed arrested for “ suspected prayer “ close to an abortion facility in Birmingham named Isabel Vaughan spruce. Check it out, A nasty atheist council made it illegal to pray in that area in a local bye law. So christianity and the right to protest were illegal there. The thin end of a wedge.

But to the main issue, it was a fair question.

You claimed “ don’t kill “ was around before Christianity ( I presume you mean before 10 commandments)
I reacted to that.

I asked where a moral code was even in recent catastrophic genocides? It Was ordinary people in rwanda that chopped millions to bits With machetes in an act of ethnic cleansing and race hate.

As an apparition of a lady had prophesied years before “unless they turned back to God, the rivers would run red, so many bodies there would be nobody left to bury them”. It was considered unthinkable at the time. But so it was.

It is an important and VERY FAIR question on existence and source of moral code, in direct response to what you said!

The Christian code is do not kill.
Nobody is acting as Christian if they they do, regardless of allegiance they claim.The Nazis do not get to decide whether God is with them. They made mockery of humanity and God.
Your misleading list of so called Christian atrocities referring to for example Bosnian genocide as “religious” in character , ignores the fact that many victims were atheist. It was ethnic cleansing, just as Rwanda.

Atheists consider unguided evolution as the origin of life . They have no other choice. The dogma of evolutionary theory is survival of fittest.

You are entitled to hold in contempt some of what was done in the name of Christianity but in defiance of its moral code, and I will JOIN you in that! It gives us all a bad name.

 

[rjs330]

Or alternatively...

If someone is suffering from problems with their gender, we don't tell them to hey, just get real. We don't tell them it's just all in your head. We don't tell them to snap out of it. We don't treat them as if it's some fantasy they're going through. We don't say that there's no reason for it because you're obviously a woman etc. We don't treat them as outcasts. We respond to their very real problem by helping anyway we can. In most cases therapy will help. That is, talking with psychiatrists. In some cases drugs are needed. And in a few cases they aren't enough and there may even be a requirement for surgery.

In other words, we accept that the patient is suffering, we treat it as being very real and we do out best, on a case by case basis, with input from the patient themself, their family, medical experts, psychiatrists et al to determine the best solutions.

First of all no one is suggesting that we tell them to get real, it's all in their head so snap out of it. Where on earth did you get that idea?

Mental illness is not ever treated with a snap out of it method. You can't tell a person with delusional disorder to snap out of it.

But treatment does come with therapy which includes therapy helping them cope with the unreality of their delusions. Drugs often help if the person takes them.

I'd prefer it if you did. I get to show that the ones I use have, for example, tens of thousands of members and are one of the leading Paediatric organisations in the world. And yours..? Well, not so much. An advocacy group with a few hundred members with some of those members who belong to other groups described as being outside the medical mainstream. Groups that are pushing flawed science and have ties to evangelical activists.

I think it's good that people can see who you bring to the table to support your views. I'm all for it. But I can see why you might baulk at using them, now you know a little more about them.

By the way, where's the link for the (ahem) peanut allergy complaint? And while I'm here, here's a link for ECT patient support: Electroconvulsive Treatment (ECT) - Support networks

I'm happy to provide resources to others. I won't bother with you anymore. There's no point.

Like I said, the organization is left leaning with the vast majority democrats. They also get all their data from Wpath which is the premier trans activists group. If I got all my data from the KKK it would be the same thing. So it fo any matter ho many members there are. What matters is where they get their information from and what sources they use. A transactivist source is not in biased.

 

[rjs330]

Well, yes, we should. But saying we should make accommodations for people, is not making specific judgements about this or that accommodation. I think we have some further work to do around that; okay, so let's do the work, not issue a blanket refusal to even consider it.

Lol, what do you think the trans community has asked for? Let me help.
1. They demand to participate in women's sports.
2. They demand to be in women's prisons.
4. They demand that they be allowed to use women's bathrooms while still looking like a man and having all the mans parts.
5. They demand to use women's locker rooms and undress in front of women.
6. They demand to shower with women.
7. They demand that you use their preferred pronouns or get fired.
8. They demand that children be allowed to transition without parental consent or knowledge.

And we are not just talking about grown women but also children and teens here.

I could go on. There's little to no work to be done on any of those issues. It's either yes or no. I can see bathroom issues being worked on, but if you think there is any work to be done in regards to women's sports and showering with women I'd like to hear it.
Let's hear the work to be done regarding pronouns. Either you force people to use them or face consequences or you don't.

Okay instead of several let's stick to one. What work could we do in regards to men demanding to shower with women?

 

[rjs330]

am - as I said upthread - aware that there have been a small proportion of cases where treatment was not carefully discerned. That doesn't invalidate every treatment ever administered.

That's incorrect. You are minimizing. The vast majority of cases are done that way. There is no extensive treatment and evaluation. If you think there is I want the research to prove it.

 

[rjs330]

As a woman, if I were to look at the list of social issues affecting me, and other women, this one is way, way down the list. But if we were to turn this thread into a discussion of patriarchy and its failings, I suspect I'd not find much support or sympathy.

Ahhh... The ole it doesn't affect me so it doesn't matter all that much argument. What about the women it does affect? Do they not matter much? And what about the affect on trans kids? Do they not matter either? Girls having their breasts removed doesn't bother you a bit. Especially when later they realize what a mistake it was?

Interesting you mentioned Patriarchy. I can't think of anything more patriarchal than men demanding to compete against women in their events and stealing their awards. Or men demanding to be allowed in the women's spaces and get naked with them and shower with them. Or demanding to be allowed in women's prisons and then raping them. I would think a woman lik your self would find that horrifyingly patriarchal.

As far as I can tell, you don't see transgenderism (having a gender identity in the brain/mind incongruent with one's sexed body) as a real phenomenon, but as some sort of delusion.

Of course it's a real phenomenon. What do you think being delusional is? It's a real disorder.

But we don't treat it by chopping off people's body parts until they feel better. You know cutting is real thing too. Do you think we ought to have people go to the doctor and him/her cut them with sterile knives so they feel better? Why or why not?

 

[rjs330]

Nope. I'll happily discuss the pros, cons and practicalities of particular accommodations. But I won't, on that basis, refuse any accommodation in principle.

Okay what accomodations can be made for men participating in women's sports?

 

[rjs330]

That's not the same thing as saying, "Medical transition is never appropriate."

Please tell me some cases where it was denied b cause it wasn't appropriate?

 

[Paidiske]

Lol, what do you think the trans community has asked for? Let me help.
1. They demand to participate in women's sports.
2. They demand to be in women's prisons.
4. They demand that they be allowed to use women's bathrooms while still looking like a man and having all the mans parts.
5. They demand to use women's locker rooms and undress in front of women.
6. They demand to shower with women.
7. They demand that you use their preferred pronouns or get fired.
8. They demand that children be allowed to transition without parental consent or knowledge.

First up, let's note that just because some activist somewhere thought something was a good idea, doesn't mean that's what the community as a whole wants, or is asking for.

That caveat out of the way, let's say this is the list of requests. Some might be easily accommodated and with some there might be problems. That's the point at which negotiation begins. It doesn't have to be "yes or no," there's room for discussion, debate, out-of-the-box thinking, and so on.

Okay instead of several let's stick to one. What work could we do in regards to men demanding to shower with women?

I literally gave you one up thread. Self-contained individual cubicles for everyone; nobody sees anybody else's whatevers. A bit of work to be done in upgrading existing facilities, but hardly the end of the world.

That's incorrect. You are minimizing. The vast majority of cases are done that way. There is no extensive treatment and evaluation. If you think there is I want the research to prove it.

How about we start here. Here are the Australian standards of care and treatment guidelines for gender diverse children and adolescents. You might note, under general principles, the bit under the heading "Individualise care:"

"Every child or adolescent who presents with concerns regarding their gender will have a unique clinical presentation and their own individual needs. The options for intervention that are appropriate for one person might not be helpful for another. For example, although many trans and gender diverse individuals may benefit from both hormonal intervention and surgery, some may choose only one of these options, and others may decide to have niehter."

Ahhh... The ole it doesn't affect me so it doesn't matter all that much argument.

No, the "if you try to manipulate me by appeal to feminism, let me point out that this is barely a blip on the radar compared to other issues," rebuttal.

What about the women it does affect? Do they not matter much?

I have already said, repeatedly, that there are particular social matters to work out. So please don't pretend I am suggesting there are no such issues.

The difference is that I think those matters can be worked out, rather than hysterically demonising a vulnerable group and refusing to work with them at all.

And what about the affect on trans kids? Do they not matter either?

They matter a very great deal; hence why I am not keen to stick my nose into their personal business.

Girls having their breasts removed doesn't bother you a bit. Especially when later they realize what a mistake it was?

It might not be something I'm particularly comfortable with, but I realise that young people undergoing such a procedure do so under the care of a medical team who make such decisions thoughtfully, carefully, and with darned good reason. Nobody is mutilating kids on a whim or for kicks and giggles.

Of course it's a real phenomenon. What do you think being delusional is? It's a real disorder.

Nope. I mean, in my view, their brains and their bodies genuinely do not "match." Whereas, if I understand you correctly, you think that's not actually something that happens.

You know cutting is real thing too. Do you think we ought to have people go to the doctor and him/her cut them with sterile knives so they feel better? Why or why not?

This analogy is gross. But that said, there are people who have careful medical plans around how they manage their self-harming behaviour, to minimise risk.

Okay what accomodations can be made for men participating in women's sports?

I'm no sports physiologist, but I understand that (for example) some sports set benchmarks for hormone levels, to qualify for participation, and so forth. My relatively uninformed view would be that there would be some sports where an essentially "open" competition would be no real problem, some where standards such as hormone levels would make things fair, and some where the advantages of having undergone male puberty would never make for a fair competition. Which is why, upthread, I suggested that sports be handled on a case-by-case basis.

Please tell me some cases where it was denied b cause it wasn't appropriate?

I personally know a person who has not undergone medical transition because her doctors advised against it in her particular case and circumstances. It really does happen.

 

[rjs330]

The trans people in my pastoral care do not match the picture you're painting, of thoughtless, delusional, easily manipulated, immature young people. And the people I know who are advocating for trans people are mostly parents desperate to see their children safe, and thriving.

Then please explain the explosion of teens girls claiming to be trans? The explosion of transgender clinics. The 80% desistance rates among teens. The climbing trans regret.

What is a delusion? Delusion is a belief in something that is known to be false. And we know for a scientific fact if you are a man or a woman. There are many tests and indicators that will tell you that. That is TRUTH. Why do you think they struggle so much? It's because they are struggling with reality. Are you also aware that they often have other comorbities as well?

Of course they are immature and easily manipulated. Teen girls are the epitome of that.

And parents yes they are easily manipulated as well because they love their kids. And when you are told if you don't allow transitioning then your kid is going to kill themselves and if they do it's your fault, of course parents are going to struggle with that. Would you rather have a dead daughter or a live son? Of course parents are going to struggle with that. They just want to survive this crazy time. It takes an awful lot of strength to ignore the noise of all of this and say no. Many people don't have that strength. I know of two parents who did. One fled the state they were in who threatened to take their child away if they didn't allow them to transition. This after a whopping 30 minute evaluation. And a second who refused to allow transitioning despite the so called experts at the transgender clinic telling her she had to save h t daughter. After several years of going through it and all the threats her daughter is thriving, healthy and guess what. Shes not trans after all.
Wonder what would have happened if she would have allowed he daughter to transition.

I know another girl that transitioned simply because she was molested and decided she would be safer being a boy.

This is just a small piece of what is REALLY going on. Those kids you are dealing with? I bet dollars to donuts some of them are actually dealing with other issues and have been fooled by the transactivists into thinking transing is the answer to their problems.

I have read every single thing there is to read that has been presented to me on this subject. And everything I've read and heard from transactivists is total hogwash. There is no way you are going to convince me that chopping off someone genitals is the answer to a mental health problem.

You know how I know? Because you wouldn't think we should for any other mental health problem. What kind of insanity is there to tell people we will just cut off body parts until you feel better. That's plain insanity and you know in your heart it's true. If your child came to you and said theynare depressed really in bad shape because they don't believe they have the right leg on their body I don't believe for a second that you would send them to a clinic and after a 20 minute consultation allow them to take drugs that would allow their leg to shrivel up and then later have a doctor cut it off. Tell me you would do that.

 

[rjs330]

literally gave you one up thread. Self-contained individual cubicles for everyone; nobody sees anybody else's whatevers. A bit of work to be done in upgrading existing facilities, but hardly the end of the world.

Oh I thought you were being factitious. A bit of work? So we are going retrofit every single school, gym sporting arena, spa, fitness center, swimming pool in every single town and county in the country? Tell me, how much is that going to cost each business? And we are going to do this for how many people?

 

[rjs330]

How about we start here. Here are the Australian standards of care and treatment guidelines for gender diverse children and adolescents. You might note, under general principles, the bit under the heading "Individualise care:"

"Every child or adolescent who presents with concerns regarding their gender will have a unique clinical presentation and their own individual needs. The options for intervention that are appropriate for one person might not be helpful for another. For example, although many trans and gender diverse individuals may benefit from both hormonal intervention and surgery, some may choose only one of these options, and others may decide to have niehter."

Oh I know what it says. I've read all that stuff. Tell me. How many counseling sessions does it take before we start pumping the kids full of harmful drugs? How long are they? How many kids have been told no? Idividualized care only means that each person is affirmed as trans and they are each given a pathway to be trans with some taking puberty blockers now and hormones later or perhaps hormones right a way. And later they can get surgery to remove their sex organs. Individualized care does not mean they are ever turned down. They are always affirmed.

That's not care. That's malpractice.

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

How do they know they are in the wrong body? What makes a biological man believe he is a female?

This got me thinking.

If I say I experience "pain". How do I know it's actually "pain" I'm feeling and not something else???

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

How do they know they are in the wrong body? What makes a biological man believe he is a female

This got me thinking.
If I experience something I call pain, what makes me think it's "pain" and not "pleasure" ???
That's the first thing that got me curious.

 

[dzheremi]

This got me thinking.

If I say I experience "pain". How do I know it's actually "pain" I'm feeling and not something else???

I don't think this is a very good analogue. The experience of pain is entirely subjective. That's why doctors have you rate it on some kind of scale when reporting it to them, so they can know how it is relative to your own baseline. For all the "gender is a spectrum" talk that we hear these days that takes that statement to be axiomatic, I don't think I've ever heard anyone say they feel "3, on a scale of 1-10" with regard to 'how female' or 'how male' they feel (and here by "anyone" I mean people I know who identify as something other than their birth sex, not how I assume it must feel to be trans). It is usually just "I feel like a man" or "I feel like a woman", or "I don't feel I comfortably fit into either category." This makes it seem like the supposed 'spectrum' of gender is in actuality treated like a scale with points at 0, 5, and 10, with nothing in between. Almost like there are only two genders (poles) and you either fit into one of them or you don't. Maybe there's even a parallel here with physical sex characteristics, as there are either clearly male, clearly female, or ambiguous/intersex people, but most people wouldn't think to ask "how male" or "how female" the presentation is, given that ambiguous presentations already have their own category that exists precisely because there are ambiguous presentations. Hmm.

 

[Paidiske]

Then please explain the explosion of teens girls claiming to be trans? The explosion of transgender clinics. The 80% desistance rates among teens. The climbing trans regret.

I'd say we're seeing a combination of complex factors, which, while some of them might be problematic, do not mean we ought to run around like chicken little screaming that the sky is falling.

What is a delusion? Delusion is a belief in something that is known to be false. And we know for a scientific fact if you are a man or a woman. There are many tests and indicators that will tell you that. That is TRUTH. Why do you think they struggle so much? It's because they are struggling with reality.

It's only a delusion if, in fact, brains are not affected by sex development. If brains are so affected (and every indication is that they are), then it's not a delusion that it's possible for brain and body to not match. So the issue is not that they're "struggling with reality," so much as that their reality is more complex than yours or mine.

Of course they are immature and easily manipulated. Teen girls are the epitome of that.

I was speaking of the people I care for in real life. None of whom are teenagers, and none of whom transitioned as teenagers. The average age of medical transition, for the record, is in one's thirties.

This is just a small piece of what is REALLY going on. Those kids you are dealing with?

I'm not dealing with kids. That's part of my point. It's easy to whip up hysteria about kids, but most people don't even begin to transition until they're well and truly adults. That's what's REALLY going on.

Oh, and while we're on the subject of what's really going on, the average time involved in transition is nearly five years. None of this 20-minute consultation and then you're in the operating theatre. It takes literally nearly five years to work through all of this, if that's even what the patient chooses to do.

Oh I thought you were being factitious. A bit of work? So we are going retrofit every single school, gym sporting arena, spa, fitness center, swimming pool in every single town and county in the country? Tell me, how much is that going to cost each business? And we are going to do this for how many people?

No, I was being quite serious. Maybe we do it the same way we did with a lot of disability accessibility requirements; you don't have to do it straight away, but when you build, or upgrade, or renovate, you have to meet a particular standard. Over time that's got most public buildings pretty well sorted.

Individualized care does not mean they are ever turned down. They are always affirmed.

Part of individualised care means working out what's causing whatever symptoms and experiences the person is having. And yes, they might be affirmed - in the sense of allowed to explore their own gender identity - during the process. But the idea that everyone's funnelled into the most extreme forms of surgery after a 20-minute consult is blatantly false.

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

... subjective...

You know what - I have always - and still do have trouble between "objective" and "subjective".
I understand and believe that there is an objective reality (absolute truth) - I just am never satisfied I am understanding it correctly.
In fact - my whole studylife and drive for growth assumes that my grasp on the "objective" (absolute truth) is incomplete.

That's why doctors have you rate it on some kind of scale when reporting it to them, so they can know how it is relative to your own baseline. For all the "gender is a spectrum" talk that we hear these days that takes that statement to be axiomatic, I don't think I've ever heard anyone say they feel "3, on a scale of 1-10" with regard to 'how female' or 'how male' they feel (and here by "anyone" I mean people I know who identify as something other than their birth sex, not how I assume it must feel to be trans).

I guess I would have always said I am male and I also feel like something inside is a "man". So I guess I'd describe myself as having a gender identity - but I guess some people think there is no gender identity?? You are either male or female and there is nothing on the "inside" that is manly or womanly. So you are only your biology?? Which means once you lose your body, you're not a man anymore??? I had always assumed even after I lost my body I'd still know I'm a "man" because something in me has the "spiritual frequency" (I made that term up haha) of masculine / male / manly ??
I would have thought that there is something happening within a person that they know they are manly or womanly - perhaps a spiritual person might find that easier to believe???

It's not immediately controvercial to me for someone to say they feel something on the inside isn't harmonising with their biology.

Almost like there are only two genders (poles) and you either fit into one of them or you don't.

By this point - I'm lost.
I have no idea how stuff works haha
I don't think anyone is really hitting the nail on the head in this subject - not yet.

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

... The experience of pain is entirely subjective...

Honestly - I don't know what subjective means.

The experience of "being a woman" is not entirely subjective??

 

[RocksInMyHead]

Then please explain the explosion of teens girls claiming to be trans?

Why specifically girls (I'm assuming that you mean people assigned female at birth who now identify as male)? The ratio of male-to-female vs female-to-male trans identifying adolescents is ~1.2:1, according to this study, released last year - meaning that more biologically male adolescents identify as female than biologically female identify as male. And while that ratio has dropped (it was ~1.5:1 in 2017), that's not due to an increase in girls identifying as male, but rather to a decrease in boys identifying as female. Overall, the number of study participants identifying as transgender decreased in both the AFAB and AMAB categories (note that the two surveys did not poll the same sample, so a decrease in the number of transgender respondents is not indicative of desistance).

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

Why specifically girls (I'm assuming that you mean people assigned female at birth who now identify as male)? The ratio of male-to-female vs female-to-male trans identifying adolescents is ~1.2:1, according to this study, released last year - meaning that more biologically male adolescents identify as female than biologically female identify as male. And while that ratio has dropped (it was ~1.5:1 in 2017), that's not due to an increase in girls identifying as male, but rather to a decrease in boys identifying as female. Overall, the number of study participants identifying as transgender decreased in both the AFAB and AMAB categories (note that the two surveys did not poll the same sample, so a decrease in the number of transgender respondents is not indicative of desistance).

Do you think there is only biology - male and female.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

Do you think there is only biology - male and female.

I think that biology is more complicated than just "male" and "female" - while most people fit nicely into one of those two boxes, not everyone does. There's also some level of disconnect between biological sex (i.e. the parts you're born with) and gender (how you perceive yourself).