When two worldviews collide.

[rjs330]

I read it for myself; and while it points out that there are multiple factors involved and research is ongoing, it's pretty clear that there seems to be evidence in the direction I indicated.

It's work in progress. But there is a beginning, at least.

Note that what that paper does not say is that these experiences have no biological basis, or don't exist.

And it doesn't say there is. Which I pointed out. Just because there are studies doesn't mean the study is proving anything. In fact this study admits that. It admits they have not been able to establish any thing. They admit it's all hypothetical.

I'm wondering why you would try and trust a study that actually hasn't proven anything. There is actually no scientific study that has shown that people are trans because of how they developed in the womb. In fact we see that is not the case due to desistance rates. Why in earth would you try and put that forward if the vast majority of teens that claim they are trans stop.being trans?

I think we could absolutely state people can be born with a mental illness. The real question is and always has been what do you do about it? Accept it? Celebrate it? Tell everyone they have to give in to the person's mental illness? Do we change all of society they have to alter reality in order to affirm their mental illness?

Is it loving your neighbor to allow men into the showers with women? Boys to share locker rooms with girls and showing their genitalia to them? Who are you loving?

If your neighbor were cutting them selves in order to give themselves relief is it loving to ignore it and affirm it?

 

[rjs330]

disagree; but even if this were true, my argument would still be: it's not up to me or you to dictate how they deal with their situation. If medical intervention to some degree helps them to cope and to function, who am I to deny that?

Really? You know they us d to lobotomize people. Do you think that was right? Hey if lobotomization works who are we to deny someone that? How about shock therapy? Who am I to deny shock therapy?
Would you be against that medical intervention?

Would you be in favor of people cutting off their arms if they feel their arm doesn't belong to them?

I'm wondering if you are just ill informed on all this.

 

[Robban]

I don't think we need to walk in someone's shoes to recognize that the path they are walking is destructive. Do you actually have to be an alcoholic in order to be able to make a claim that alcoholism is not good and is destructive?

Must you be inflicted with a mental illness to be able to claim that a persons delusions are are not reality?
Your comment is a drive by without giving actual thought in what you are saying.

Paidiske's comment was wisdom.

We all have a soul and spirit is a part of the soul's makeup,

When a person comes to a Rebbe and seeks his council and assistence in dealing with a spiritual malady,
the Rebbe must first find the same blemish, if only in the most subtle of forms,

in his own soul, only then can the Rebbe help him to refine and perfect his self and
character.

This is the deeper aignificance of that which our sages have said.

 

[rjs330]

Peanut allergy is now a left leaning agenda? Where do you get this stuff? Honestly, give me a link.

So they made recommendations re covid with which you didn't agree? From your previous posts on covid you can colour me unsurprised.

This is really desperate stuff.

The AAP has close to 70,000 members. Any member can propose any resolution. Chairs of internal committees can co-sponsor it to allow it to proceed. If they don't then it's put to the general membership to co sponsor. The resolution was proposed by just 5 members. It received no support.

And one of the 5 sponsors was Julia Mason. See here: Leaked files show pediatricians angry with academy's trans policy

Who she? Well, you will never guess who she writes papers for. Yep, our old friends, the advocacy group, the American College Of Pediatricians! What ya think? Also a member? We should check.

She's also a clinical adviror to SEGM, the Society For Evidence Based Gender Medicine. Yet another vague group who are concerned about trans people. So let's check what people have to say about them: Society for Evidence-Based Gender Medicine - Wikipedia

'Researchers at the Yale School of Medicine issued a report which described SEGM as a small group of anti-trans activists. Joshua Safer, a spokesperson for the Endocrine Society, described them as outside the medical mainstream. Aviva Stahl stated they were "pushing flawed science"and Mallory Moore stated they have "ties to evangelical activists" '

And these are the people you are presenting that you say are unbiased. It's comical.

Have you got anything that isn't tied to small groups of anti trans groups? I mean seriously, have you got anything apart from these people??

World collide again. Anyone who disagrees with the the trans agenda is anti-trans. Well color me surprised. Of course people are anti-transenderism. Just like like anyone who supports it us pro-transgenderism. That's how it works.

The group you claim is unbiased has shown they are not. They are left leaning and take their guidance directly from a leftist activist organization. What can I say.

Have you got anything that isn't tied to pro-transgenderism groups? I mean seriously have you got anything else?

This is a pro-transgenderism vs an anti-transgenderism debate. Worlds are colliding. And there isn't any other way of seeing it. But the facts are even the pro-transgenderism people are backing off. But you appear to still be on the train. It's time to catch up. More and more information is coming out. The train is slowing down and more and more people are starting to realize the road we've been going down is not the right one.

How about in the future we don't even try and use any resources. Because I am going to automatically dismiss your pro-trans resources and you are going to automatically dismiss my resources. Let's just get that out in the open and discuss this without them.

 

[rjs330]

Paidiske's comment was wisdom.

We all have a soul and spirit is a part of the soul's makeup,

When a person comes to a Rebbe and seeks his council and assistence in dealing with a spiritual malady,
the Rebbe must first find the same blemish, if only in the most subtle of forms,

in his own soul, only then can the Rebbe help him to refine and perfect his self and
character.

This is the deeper aignificance of that which our sages have said.

No that's incorrect. The Rabbi does not have to find the same blemish. We do not all have the same problems. We all commit offenses. But we all do not commit all the same offenses. Alcoholism is a prime example. I'm not nor have I ever been an alcoholic. I don't need to in order to see how destructive it is and to counsel someone to be very careful about drinking and the destructiveness of alcoholism. Same goes for drugs or a myriad of other things.

What do have to do is be humble and know that given certain circumstances I took may fall into the same actions. But I don't actually have to have done it or have a weakness in that area.

Besides we are not talking about sin, but mental illnesses. Which are a different subject. And a societal philosophy that teaches children it's a wonderful and celebratory thing to proclaim you are the opposite sex.

 

[ralliann]

Paidiske's comment was wisdom.

We all have a soul and spirit is a part of the soul's makeup,

When a person comes to a Rebbe and seeks his council and assistence in dealing with a spiritual malady,
the Rebbe must first find the same blemish, if only in the most subtle of forms,

in his own soul, only then can the Rebbe help him to refine and perfect his self and
character.

This is the deeper aignificance of that which our sages have said.

How many have recommended cutting off female or male genetailia?

 

[Paidiske]

I'm wondering why you would try and trust a study that actually hasn't proven anything.

I accept the weight of the many, many sound scientific sources I've read. Is it proven as an absolute? No, but that's not the language of science, anyway. However, the weight of the data makes this, currently, the most likely explanation.

In fact we see that is not the case due to desistance rates.

No; people whose gender dysphoria desists are not actually transgendered. That's a distinction that needs to be made.

Do we change all of society they have to alter reality in order to affirm their mental illness?

There are different types of mental illness, and different approaches to treating them. We do actually make accommodations for other mental illnesses in various ways; that's a part of dealing with disability in general.

Is it loving your neighbor to allow men into the showers with women? Boys to share locker rooms with girls and showing their genitalia to them? Who are you loving?

I literally pointed out that this is not necessary. You are (rather hysterically) attacking a straw man, here. Just because I accept that transgendered people exist, as such, doesn't mean I am suggesting a particular way forward in terms of social accommodations.

How about shock therapy? Who am I to deny shock therapy?
Would you be against that medical intervention?

You do know that ECT is still a normal part of medical treatment, right?

I'm wondering if you are just ill informed on all this.

I recognise, for a start, that the kind of changes a transgendered person might seek to make exist on a spectrum, from the very mild social changes (for example, adopting a unisex name, or dressing androgynously) all the way through to a full medical/surgical transition. I also recognise that very, very few people actually choose that full medical/surgical transition; most people find that changes less extreme than that are able to reduce their distress to a level where they can live a relatively healthy life.

If I am reluctant to absolutely rule out the most extreme treatment, it's because I recognise that it is rare, and that it is only done for people for whom the milder changes are not sufficient. And because at that point, I think the best people to be making those decisions are the person concerned and their medical team, not me or any other random on the internet with an ideological wagon to push but no skin in the game, as it were.

 

[Robban]

No that's incorrect. The Rabbi does not have to find the same blemish. We do not all have the same problems. We all commit offenses. But we all do not commit all the same offenses. Alcoholism is a prime example. I'm not nor have I ever been an alcoholic. I don't need to in order to see how destructive it is and to counsel someone to be very careful about drinking and the destructiveness of alcoholism. Same goes for drugs or a myriad of other things.

What do have to do is be humble and know that given certain circumstances I took may fall into the same actions. But I don't actually have to have done it or have a weakness in that area.

Besides we are not talking about sin, but mental illnesses. Which are a different subject. And a societal philosophy that teaches children it's a wonderful and celebratory thing to proclaim you are the opposite sex.

Who are you to say it is not correct?

I am talking about helping people and it is not much help if you cannot put yourself in their place.

I do not touch homosex, trans and all the stuff that surrounds it, because it has for some reason passed me by.

What more is to say?

 

[Bradskii]

How about in the future we don't even try and use any resources.

I'd prefer it if you did. I get to show that the ones I use have, for example, tens of thousands of members and are one of the leading Paediatric organisations in the world. And yours..? Well, not so much. An advocacy group with a few hundred members with some of those members who belong to other groups described as being outside the medical mainstream. Groups that are pushing flawed science and have ties to evangelical activists.

I think it's good that people can see who you bring to the table to support your views. I'm all for it. But I can see why you might baulk at using them, now you know a little more about them.

By the way, where's the link for the (ahem) peanut allergy complaint? And while I'm here, here's a link for ECT patient support: Electroconvulsive Treatment (ECT) - Support networks

 

[Robban]

How many have recommended cutting off female or male genetailia?

Obviously none but Paul thought was a good idea cocerning circumcision,

he was talking about Judaisers , of course he was being snarky but even so.

 

[ralliann]

Obviously none but Paul thought was a good idea cocerning circumcision,

he was talking about Judaisers , of course he was being snarky but even so.

Cute aside, that does not speak to my question.

 

[rjs330]

No; people whose gender dysphoria desists are not actually transgendered. That's a distinction that needs to be made.

Then why are we so quick to give puberty blockers and hormone treatments? Are you not aware of the lack of evaluation that goes into this?

accept the weight of the many, many sound scientific sources I've read. Is it proven as an absolute? No, but that's not the language of science, anyway. However, the weight of the data makes this, currently, the most likely explanation.

As I've said there are no many many sound scientific studies on what you claim. You posted one and it was found to be hypothetical and admitted it. I think even quoted form the study that ADMITTED the research is lacking. You can't claim that there is many many sound studies when the research tells you there isn't.

 

[rjs330]

There are different types of mental illness, and different approaches to treating them. We do actually make accommodations for other mental illnesses in various ways; that's a part of dealing with disability in general.

Please enlighten me on the societal changes where we alter our way of life over someone's mental illness.

 

[Paidiske]

Then why are we so quick to give puberty blockers and hormone treatments? Are you not aware of the lack of evaluation that goes into this?

I am - as I said upthread - aware that there have been a small proportion of cases where treatment was not carefully discerned. That doesn't invalidate every treatment ever administered.

You can't claim that there is many many sound studies when the research tells you there isn't.

What I see, when I look at the weight of the research, is that the experience of being transgendered is probably multi-factorial, with a large early developmental component. That's the foundation from which I approach this issue. If you want to claim there's no biological basis to it, you have a lot of work to do to establish that, because that's not what I see in the literature.

But again, in many ways, this is irrelevant. Transgendered people exist. The challenge, for Christians, is not to argue the science of causes or the minutiae of treatment, but to remember the second great commandment; love your neighbour as yourself.

Please enlighten me on the societal changes where we alter our way of life over someone's mental illness.

Here's an example; guidance for workplaces on how to accommodate and support people with mental illness: Help others stay at work Note how the emphasis on things like flexible hours, modified tasks, and so on, amount to altering part of our way of life.

(Hint; a quick google brought up many examples and resources).

 

[Bradskii]

Please enlighten me on the societal changes where we alter our way of life over someone's mental illness.

If someone is suffering from depression, we don't tell them to hey, just lighten up. We don't tell them it's just all in your head. We don't tell them to snap out of it. We don't treat them as if it's some fantasy they're going through. We don't say that there's no reason for it because you've got a nice house, a good job etc. We don't treat them as outcasts. We respond to their very real problem by helping anyway we can. In most cases therapy will help. That is, talking with psychiatrists. In some cases drugs are needed. And in a few cases they aren't enough and there may even be a requirement for ECT (remember that?) or even surgery.

In other words, we accept that the patient is suffering, we treat it as being very real and we do out best, on a case by case basis, with input from the patient themself, their family, medical experts, psychiatrists et al to determine the best solutions.

 

[Bradskii]

Or alternatively...

If someone is suffering from problems with their gender, we don't tell them to hey, just get real. We don't tell them it's just all in your head. We don't tell them to snap out of it. We don't treat them as if it's some fantasy they're going through. We don't say that there's no reason for it because you're obviously a woman etc. We don't treat them as outcasts. We respond to their very real problem by helping anyway we can. In most cases therapy will help. That is, talking with psychiatrists. In some cases drugs are needed. And in a few cases they aren't enough and there may even be a requirement for surgery.

In other words, we accept that the patient is suffering, we treat it as being very real and we do out best, on a case by case basis, with input from the patient themself, their family, medical experts, psychiatrists et al to determine the best solutions.

 

[Kylie]

"You are not allowed to be christian" is certainly true in parts of the world.

And yet SteveW is in Brisbane Australia, and people in Australia are very much free to be Christian.

In the UK you cannot adopt children if you are because of your "beliefs" !
Is how far the ideology is ingrained.

Would you care to provide me with a source that shows that it is illegal for Christians to adopt children in the UK?

In the UK you are not allowed to "pray" within a certain distance of any abortion facility.
Or even stop because you might be praying!!!!! Free country huh?

Again, would you care to show me a source to support your claim about the illegality of this?

The biggest genocides and mass killings in history are atheist in origin and communist in particular, because it does not value life.
Chinese cultural revolution, the gulags, pol pots killing fields, cases in point naziism was socialist/atheist.

The Nazis literally had "God is with us" as part of their uniform. Don't pretend they were atheists.

Indeed plenty of atheist regimes have done so, take the rwandan genocide, the vendee massacre, or the paris commune.
Where was the atheist moral code then?

When did I say that being an atheist automatically meant having a moral code?

The crusades in comparison were a civil affair. Saladdin sent a sick Richard the lionheart fruit to help him recover.
They even tried to cook up an arranged marriage to solve the sovereignty problem!

That's hilarious. Here's a list of some of the atrocities that took place due to Christianity. The Right-Wing Doesn't Want to Talk About Christian Atrocities, So Let's Talk About Christian Atrocities

The number of abortions dwarfs many of those genocides. The figures are horrendous !
In the US Over half a million a year.
That is what happens when you cease to value life, and value entitlement over moral code.
Yet (almost all) Christianity, and before that (almost all) judaism always opposed abortion.

Stop trying to derail the thread.

I am looking at history, not lens of faith

You are looking at history through the lens of your faith, and you are getting a distorted and inaccurate view.

When "survival of fittest" is all that is left. The deaths are horrendous. That is the stated "faith" of atheist evolutionists everywhere.

You do not know what you are talking about. I am an atheist and I certainly do not hold such views.

 

[rjs330]

literally pointed out that this is not necessary. You are (rather hysterically) attacking a straw man, here. Just because I accept that transgendered people exist, as such, doesn't mean I am suggesting a particular way forward in terms of social accommodations.

I'm glad to here that. Especially after you just said we do offer accomodations for mental illnesses. Which sounded like we should offer accomodations for transgenders. It's no straw man when these things are actually occurring. And it's not hysterical to point them out. Your comment seems to be minimizing what is actually happening to women. And being a woman yourself I would think you would readily recognize how wrong this is for your sex to have to deal with.

We all recognize that trans people exist, just like we recognize people with delusional disorders exist or bi-polar people exist.

The issue with this particular thing is that a very large number of transgender people are not actually transgender and do not have gender dysphoria and are yet being sold a bill of goods when there is something else going on. There is a growing group of people who are regretting their transformations. These people are important to listen to.

You may not be suggesting particular accomodations but the trans activists are. And they are demanding it. And I you desire to keep silent on it while women and children suffer then that's up to you.

 

[rjs330]

I accept the weight of the many, many sound scientific sources I've read. Is it proven as an absolute? No, but that's not the language of science, anyway. However, the weight of the data makes this, currently, the most likely explanation.

No; people whose gender dysphoria desists are not actually transgendered. That's a distinction that needs to be made.

There are different types of mental illness, and different approaches to treating them. We do actually make accommodations for other mental illnesses in various ways; that's a part of dealing with disability in general.

I literally pointed out that this is not necessary. You are (rather hysterically) attacking a straw man, here. Just because I accept that transgendered people exist, as such, doesn't mean I am suggesting a particular way forward in terms of social accommodations.

You do know that ECT is still a normal part of medical treatment, right?

I recognise, for a start, that the kind of changes a transgendered person might seek to make exist on a spectrum, from the very mild social changes (for example, adopting a unisex name, or dressing androgynously) all the way through to a full medical/surgical transition. I also recognise that very, very few people actually choose that full medical/surgical transition; most people find that changes less extreme than that are able to reduce their distress to a level where they can live a relatively healthy life.

If I am reluctant to absolutely rule out the most extreme treatment, it's because I recognise that it is rare, and that it is only done for people for whom the milder changes are not sufficient. And because at that point, I think the best people to be making those decisions are the person concerned and their medical team, not me or any other random on the internet with an ideological wagon to push but no skin in the game, as it were.

You know who has the skin in the game? It's the transactivists and their medical providers. This is evidenced over and over again. The numbered gender clinics have exploded. It went from just a few to over 300 in the US. They are huge money makers. And the treatments are life long even after surgery. Hundreds of thousands of dollars are made by this. And often with little to no consultation and treatment. A 15 to 20.minute conversation and here you go here's your puberty blockers and your hormone treatments. You are trans. We've already heard from these places. They NEVER SAY NO. They will tell you that they affirm, they do not deny. Now what kind of treatment is that? That's not treatment thats malpractice. If I went to my doctor and told them i thought I had an enlarged heart and they spoke with me briefly and then said yup you have one and so here's all the drugs for you and we'll go ahead and due surgery on you or whatever you would be appalled. You would also be appalled if your child though their arm didn't belong on their body and so you went in to the doctor and after 20 minutes the doctor agrees and started on treatments to have the arm removed. You would not be so calm about leaving it up to the professionals. The same professionals that misdiagnose over 12 million people a year and cause 250,000 deaths a year. Are really trying to claim that they are completely trustworthy on this issue? An issue that we really know little about? That you just trust them completely to give your kid 20.minitws of their time and then start transing them? Does that really sound like good medicine to you?

The ideological weapon is being utilized by the transactivists. We have seen a 400% increase in girls claiming they are trans. We have seen the idiological attacks in the schools with children in grade school and kindergarten being taught that boys can be girls and their gender might not match their bodies. We have schools transing the kids without parental knowledge. Who's ideological now?

Look I believe you are a good person. And I believe you want to do right by people. But it's pretty obvious you are quite ill informed as to what's happening.

 

[Paidiske]

I'm glad to here that. Especially after you just said we do offer accomodations for mental illnesses. Which sounded like we should offer accomodations for transgenders.

Well, yes, we should. But saying we should make accommodations for people, is not making specific judgements about this or that accommodation. I think we have some further work to do around that; okay, so let's do the work, not issue a blanket refusal to even consider it.

Your comment seems to be minimizing what is actually happening to women.

From my point of view, the other "side" of the argument is making mountains out of molehills. Are there issues and areas which need work? Yes. Does that mean that we can't calmly, rationally and compassionately do that together? No. But some people seem to think that's impossible (or undesirable, or both).

And being a woman yourself I would think you would readily recognize how wrong this is for your sex to have to deal with.

As a woman, if I were to look at the list of social issues affecting me, and other women, this one is way, way down the list. But if we were to turn this thread into a discussion of patriarchy and its failings, I suspect I'd not find much support or sympathy.

We all recognize that trans people exist, just like we recognize people with delusional disorders exist or bi-polar people exist.

As far as I can tell, you don't see transgenderism (having a gender identity in the brain/mind incongruent with one's sexed body) as a real phenomenon, but as some sort of delusion.

And I you desire to keep silent on it while women and children suffer then that's up to you.

Nope. I'll happily discuss the pros, cons and practicalities of particular accommodations. But I won't, on that basis, refuse any accommodation in principle.

You would not be so calm about leaving it up to the professionals. The same professionals that misdiagnose over 12 million people a year and cause 250,000 deaths a year. Are really trying to claim that they are completely trustworthy on this issue? An issue that we really know little about? That you just trust them completely to give your kid 20.minitws of their time and then start transing them? Does that really sound like good medicine to you?

You know what? I have some personal history here, of misdiagnosis, mistreatment, and very badly handled medical care. If you want to argue that we need a better trained, better equipped, better resourced medical system, I won't argue with you one iota.

That's not the same thing as saying, "Medical transition is never appropriate."

Look I believe you are a good person. And I believe you want to do right by people. But it's pretty obvious you are quite ill informed as to what's happening.

The sentiment is completely mutual.

From my point of view, you're taking extreme outlier events (which you could find about almost any condition) and blowing them out of all proportion, to claim that all of society ought to treat this as some major threat. I'm not buying it. The trans people I know personally do not have experiences which match the claims being made here, at all. The trans people in my pastoral care do not match the picture you're painting, of thoughtless, delusional, easily manipulated, immature young people. And the people I know who are advocating for trans people are mostly parents desperate to see their children safe, and thriving.

All the rest seems to me to be a few loud voices on social media, a lot of hype, pseudoscientific waffle, and scaremongering. It has very little to do with the reality of most trans people's day to day lives at all.