When two worldviews collide.

[ralliann]

I was thinking more along moral and social norms lines. Certainly the Churchs absolute power was challenged as being authorative in all domains of life including how we should gain knowledege but I think it still had hold over society when it came to morals even when the Church was subject to the Monarchy and later the State to some extent.

We only have to look at some of the social norms and moral laws over history to find a consistent influence. For example in the 14th century, premarital sex was prohibited and considered a sin and this was still the case pre 1960 in most Western nations regardless of Enligtened thinking. This was similar for a number of moral issues like adultery, homosexuality, SSM aned abortion.

The Church had absolute rule up to around the 1500's but still shared rule with the Monarchs up until Enlightenment. Enligtenment had a profound effect on how people thought about everything but still Christain values had sway on laws and especially social norms. The Romantic period that followed Enlightenment reignited the Church or at least belief in God and a more pure religion.

I think Enlightenment began the process of rationalizing morality which had its own problems but I don;t think the pioneers were wanting to get ride of God as the basis for society. We see that in the US Declaration that all are created in Gods image with natural inalienable rights. But certainly Enlightenment led to branches that contested God as the basis of morality altogether.

I think we have seen the culmination of this progressive thinking during the 20th century and especially from the 60's as these ideas like liberation, Humanism, Individualism and Materialism worked together to result in cultural revolutions.

Then came Postmodernism ( the idea that there are no Grand truths and truth is self referential) and then the academics with Critical theory designed to tear down the status quo due to oppressor/oppressee relationships Which has evolved into Wokism the idea that Identity is the only truth and denying identity is denying Human Rights.

I know its more complex than this but broadly I think from the time of Christ which was a significant event in Western and human history has impacted humans and has taken a long time to shake off, not that it will ever be completely shaken off. But we are entering what some say is the Anthropocene (the time of Humans). So maybe now humans are replacing God with themselves, to recreate the Utopia that everyone has been yearning for which includes human ideas on morality and how we should order society.

Yes I think that seems to be the case that Christainity dwindling. As well as whats mentioned above this was compounded by the Church behaving badly.

But primarily I don't think that would stop people from believing if they are rational and honest because bad behaviour in some parts of the Church doesn't represent Christain belief (Christs teachings). I think its more about belief, we all have this belief shape hole in us and you can make anything a god. The question is what do we fill the void when we take God (Christainity) out of the picture.

Christianity is dwindling. And all that you say about the world is true. The constitution however guarantees Christians, and other religions, rights that are not to be infringed upon. The constitution credits those rights from God alone. Religions can be whatever they are. But none has the right to infringe those rights on another. So taking our rights from us to freely exercise Christian religion, is unconstitutional. The void is having no constitution. And something/some other is going to take the force of it's place.

 

[ralliann]

I think that acceptance is all that is really asked for.

I see it as much more than that.

 

[ralliann]

It is very difficult to discuss seven centuries of European history, bearing in mind the very different strands you have mentioned. Let us get back to the Twentieth Century! I don't think the dwindling influence of the Church can be put down to clerical misbehaviour; most of that came out long after congregations had vanished.

After World War II many new ideas found expression. Humanist philosophies; tolerance of homosexuality, abolition of capital punishment, the notion of universal health care and the welfare state - all gained ground in the years after the War, along with an increasing rejection of traditional authorities. I think it is fair to say that these ideas are further advanced in Europe. What is now taken for granted here is often still seen as controversial in America.

Because those do not have our constitution. God given rights. These others discuss what is good to allow, or forbid as they well, decide for whatever reason they so happen to change.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Christianity is dwindling. And all that you say about the world is true. The constitution however guarantees Christians, and other religions, rights that are not to be infringed upon.

Technically the rights are granted to individuals who can collectively gather into groups.

The constitution credits those rights from God alone.

It does not. The constitution makes *no* mention of "god" as a source or rights or anything elese.

Religions can be whatever they are. But none has the right to infringe those rights on another.

Correct, individuals and institutions lack the right to infringe on the rights other persons.

So taking our rights from us to freely exercise Christian religion, is unconstitutional. The void is having no constitution. And something/some other is going to take the force of it's place.

 

[jayem]

So taking our rights from us to freely exercise Christian religion, is unconstitutional.

Can you be more specific? In what exact situation has your right to practice your religion been infringed?

 

[ralliann]

Can you be more specific? In what exact situation has your right to practice your religion been infringed?

Yes, the right to exercise the training up of our children. What we teach them, is being infringed upon in today's school's etc.

 

[FireDragon76]

First up, priestess is a slur, implying paganism and invalidity of orders (and a term CF generally treats as a flame when used of Christian clergy). The term for a woman who's a priest, is priest. Please do people the courtesy of not using slurs in place of the correct term for their role.

Second, nope, ministry is not about exerting power and control. Christian leadership is not about domineering. It is about inspiring, encouraging, equipping and enabling. Manipulation, coercion, bullying, or other power-and-control tactics are deeply unethical in the way that they disrespect the dignity of the person so treated. This is not how Christ leads, and it is not how Christians are to lead; inside the church, or outside of it.

That does not mean not having power! Power, as in, the ability to do things, to effect change, and so on, is real and necessary. But in Christian communities, it cannot be power-over, but needs to be power-with. It also does not mean that I make no decisions in my own right, or even that I don't maintain the church's boundaries on some matters (I say, deeply aware of having to call the police to remove someone who was engaging in threatening behaviour, earlier this week). But there is a vast difference between using the authority given by the church, to maintain the safety of its members, and controlling others more generally.

Whether or not Christianity declines is not something we are to seek to control by our own power. We are to be faithful in mission, in prayer, and in worship, and leave the results to God. But I can say this; attempts to domineer, to control, to exert power in culture wars and the like, are doing far more to stoke secular hostility and accelerate any decline in Christianity, than any attempt to be a community marked by gentleness, humility and service.

I agree with what you said here.

Dynamics of power are not the only way to see human relationships.

 

[jayem]

Yes, the right to exercise the training up of our children. What we teach them, is being infringed upon in today's school's etc.

I'm assuming your problem is with a public school. What's being taught, at what grade level, that violates your beliefs? Do you have a specific example?

And BTW, if public school curriculum is so offensive, then send your kids to parochial school. Or home school them. Isn't their spiritual welfare worth working a 2nd, or 3rd job to get the money?

 

[Whyayeman]

So taking our rights from us to freely exercise Christian religion, is unconstitutional.

No rights have been taken from you - or anybody else. You can - and I suppose do - exercise your right to worship. Your 'right to exercise the training up' of your children is not affected by anything that happens outside the home, though unless they are kept within the home they will meet other influences.

It sounds as though you want to insulate children from the world.

Because those do not have our constitution. God given rights. These others discuss what is good to allow, or forbid as they well, decide for whatever reason they so happen to change.

European countries have Constitutions guaranteeing the freedom of worship too. (As far as scriptures tell us God did not give rights to anybody. In fact in the Bible women and girls are treated as chattels.)

 

[Ana the Ist]

In discussing some of the moral issues facing society such as gender, sex, race, Rights, identity politics ect relating to how we as a society should structure ourselves I have found that a polarisation is happening between two broad worldviews. On the one side the Left which I think is more likely to be athiest or more pluralistic about belief and on the other is the Right which are more conservative and traditional and more likely to be Christain. Though I think there is degrees of variance where some will also be open to opposing views to some degree.

True....there are degrees of variation....and one could broadly describe the left as more secular and the right as more religious....this is only true in the more traditional definitions of those words.

I don't think the left is actually more pluralistic. It has its own informal orthodox secular religion. While you might be able to anonymously elicit a variety of opinions anonymously or in a one on one discussion...in groups or while being recorded, it's not difficult to know what answers will be given to certain questions should one ask then. The term NPC refers to such people on the left.....since they have a script they speak that makes them sound like every other leftist on a variety of issues. If they were a truly pluralistic political body....it would be extremely difficult to predict any answers to political questions.

But it seems things have become more polarised is recent times deue to society moving away from a Christain worldview to a secular one. In the past there was more middle ground and basically people I think were more traditional had belief and progressives were seen as out of step. I think today the Left has gained a lot of ground mainly due to a reaction to percieved past injustices by traditionalist or Christains and being more open to alternative ideas.

I think there's more independent voters than ever before....which indicates a vast middle ground that few, if any, speak to.

In the past Western societies were based on Christain values but in the last few decades God and Christainity has been rejected

I don't think Christain values were the basis as much as post enlightenment political theory. The cultural mores and norms however were Christain to a large degree.

and in its place the State has become the arbitor of societal morals and infringed more on peoples private lives. Of course a lot has happened in that time with social media which I think has had a profound impact on thinking undermining truth and has given individuals and groups much power to push their views and influence governments and society.

I think the government and the institution of journalism had become intertwined in a way that undermined the purpose of journalism as an institution. This process probably had damaged reporting to a degree that few realized until the internet and independent journalism had really gained a foothold. Without any need for cooperation with the government, independent journalists had the ability to expose some of the obvious falsehoods promoted by mainstream outlets.

But the result of all this is that there is a growing division between the Christian Worldview and the Secular Worldview to the point that they clash even violently like people want to destroy Christains aned opposing views and it seems the State is actively siding with the a secular position with the help of certain lobbyist.

It's not so much as an attack on a Christian Worldview (these are far more diverse than many Christians care to admit) but it's definitely an attack on right wing politics or anything claimed to be such.

They have been actively dismantaling Christainity and taking God completely out of the picture in our institutions and public life generally, I should say its not always just Christains but also traditionalist and others who believe in the Truths that the West was built upon such as Enlightement and Democracy. Many on the Left also seem to support some sort of Marxism so this polarisation seems to be political and religious.

Marxism is in many ways, more accurately described as a religion than a political theory. There is no God, but it does have a great many moral beliefs it adheres to. Marxists always speak in terms of dialectics or rather, they describe a very black or white world. There's no room for nuance, no grey areas. They have their own version of history, their own means of finding truth, and a belief in a glorious utopia that can be created once those standing in its way are removed. This creates a very "ends justify means" mindset in politics and this allows for political violence and scapegoating on a mass scale.

I guess our present situation is also the result of Postmodernism the idea of tearing down the old truths and archetypes of the West and society has become more individualistic and relative.

Postmodernism is a very hypocritical attempt at a "power grab" through means which seem very innocuous at first.....language.

Its a complex combination of factors but the thing that stands out for me is that there seems to be a showdown brewing between Christain and traditionalist and the Secularist and the Left and I think the Left is winning at the moment.

The left has been taken hold by the religion of Marxism in a significant way....and the methods of postmodernism are very much a part of the left's "means".

I think it's worth pointing out though....that Marxism almost always requires revolution. It cannot be implemented piecemeal. That's because it is so divorced from reality that Marxist policies fail immediately in real time. The defund the police movement is a good example, but you can literally take almost any leftist policies and see how they fare. Has DEI initiatives helped the military? No...recruiting is so badly damaged the military is in desperate shape. In the workplace, DEI has led to record numbers of discrimination lawsuits filed and won by white employees. They failed to deliver on increased productivity....and instead have fostered resentment and tribalism in the work environment. I had written off boycotting as an effective method of protest....yet Bud Light and Target have seen themselves severely damaged by a boycott that happened spontaneously and without any real effort or coordination. People simply rejected the company's new religious morals being shoved onto their products.

I can see this continuing where Christainity is pushed to the fringes.

Well take heart. The SCOTUS isn't changing anytime soon and the number of black and latino voters drifting to the right have a lot to do with their strong religious beliefs.

So we are at a point for the first time in a long time in our history where societies efforts to rid themselves of God and Christainity will see secularist and non believers outnumbering Christains and completely rejecting God from society.

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

But is this new World completely devoid of belief or is society replacing God and Christainity with some new religion, a secular religion which has been able to grow disguised as something else like some new utopia that promises to do away with injustice and inequality and bring people true happiness. I think so as it seems that peoples reaction to Christainity and God today isn't just about a new way but is tied to their identity and debates are often full of feelings even to the point of wanting to destroy others who disagree,

As an atheist, I can only assure you that I stand by you and all religions in general in any attempt to infringe upon your freedom of religious beliefs and expression....even those which condemn me for my lack of faith.

So I think this is a fight for Truth and there can only be one Truth. But today truth has lost all meaning and personal truth has become the only truth.

Truth is not a personal matter....nor is it a religious one. Just ask Galileo.

But I think the Truth as in the one Truth we all know is real will shine through in the end, but its going to be a fight in the meantime where many false ideas will seem to win out and may fool many.

Truth has a way of asserting itself to even those most zealous in denying it. As such, it cannot be suppressed forever. It may not be what people wish....and may even be opposite of what they hope....but truth laughs at hope and ignores any personal appeal.

 

[stevevw]

It is very difficult to discuss seven centuries of European history, bearing in mind the very different strands you have mentioned. Let us get back to the Twentieth Century! I don't think the dwindling influence of the Church can be put down to clerical misbehaviour; most of that came out long after congregations had vanished.

After World War II many new ideas found expression. Humanist philosophies; tolerance of homosexuality, abolition of capital punishment, the notion of universal health care and the welfare state - all gained ground in the years after the War, along with an increasing rejection of traditional authorities. I think it is fair to say that these ideas are further advanced in Europe. What is now taken for granted here is often still seen as controversial in America.

Where is here, is that England. Not sure what you mean by "What is now taken for granted here is often still seen as controversial in America".
I think the Inquiries into Institutional child abuse over the last 10 years as well as Terrorism such as 9/11 has contributed in recent times especially considering the dramatic increase in people moving away from belief in God. First it was anti Islam and now thats transferred to anti Christian.

But also overall skepticism and indifference to the Church and Christianity has culminated over a few of generations where now most young people of this generation are not religious. So there was a gradual chipping away at the Church which I think as you said reached a tipping point perhaps with recent events and now the scales are weighted towards being non religious.

But I also think people need to replacement belief about morality and how we should order society to achieve equality, peace and order. I think that has also been gradually evolving through the changing culture and politics. I agree that secular Humanism became that new religious belief which has now become Woke religion.

 

[Bradskii]

But I also think people need to replacement belief about morality and how we should order society to achieve equality, peace and order.

Why does anyone need a 'replacement belief' in order to achieve equality, peace and order? Those are humanist aims. They are likewise Christian aims, are they not? And by Christian I mean someone who follows the teachings of Christ. I am most definitely not talking about any given religion.

So if you were a follower of any Christian religion and then discovered that you couldn't align your acceptance of what Jesus taught with the supernatural aspect of religious belief then what would change? Do you suddenly think that equality, peace and order are not things for which we should strive? Why would you reject what Jesus taught simply because He wasn't divine? Doesn't what He said hold true in any case?

The only difference would be a rejection of any given religion's idea of morality based simply on that fact that 'it is written' and accepting the rather more prosaic position of determining if harm is likely caused.

 

[ralliann]

Where is here, is that England. Not sure what you mean by "What is now taken for granted here is often still seen as controversial in America".
I think the Inquiries into Institutional child abuse over the last 10 years as well as Terrorism such as 9/11 has contributed in recent times especially considering the dramatic increase in people moving away from belief in God. First it was anti Islam and now thats transferred to anti Christian.

But also overall skepticism and indifference to the Church and Christianity has culminated over a few of generations where now most young people of this generation are not religious. So there was a gradual chipping away at the Church which I think as you said reached a tipping point perhaps with recent events and now the scales are weighted towards being non religious.

But I also think people need to replacement belief about morality and how we should order society to achieve equality, peace and order. I think that has also been gradually evolving through the changing culture and politics. I agree that secular Humanism became that new religious belief which has now become Woke religion.

The curtailing of freedom of association is an issue here. We have lost the way to associate to effect peacefulness. We are not able to use our own money to form our own schools, begin to organize to create our own communities etc. If we had complete rights to association None would have to squabble over any of this stuff. This right was curtailed in the civil rights movement, which originally concerned race. We have come to a place there is forced association period. Some are taking to mass exodus, going on from one state to another. How nice would it be to be able to go somewhere to live without all this friction?

 

[stevevw]

I think there's more independent voters than ever before....which indicates a vast middle ground that few, if any, speak to.

Thats a good point. Theres also more Independent reps and groups. Maybe thats a sign of the times like with identity politics. The problem is I think that it may be impossible to have such a society where theres pluracy of beliefs and views all having equal say and representation. As we often see minor interests can hold the balance of power and push their ageneda on everyone. It seems the same with the general population where minority groups can have sway over everyone.

I don't think Christain values were the basis as much as post enlightenment political theory. The cultural mores and norms however were Christain to a large degree.

Thats what I am mainly talking about. That was the status quo and we pretty well accepted those Traditional norms. When it came to morality people thought of God. I think it was Englightenment that questioned "but how do we know God is the basis for morality" (epistemics) that began or led people to question God and be open to other possibilities.

In many ways we are still debating that question but I think that questioning has evolved into skepticism and rejection of God altogether. By questioning I think this led to alternative beliefs like materialism aned Individualism which is replacing religious belief.

I think the government and the institution of journalism had become intertwined in a way that undermined the purpose of journalism as an institution. This process probably had damaged reporting to a degree that few realized until the internet and independent journalism had really gained a foothold. Without any need for cooperation with the government, independent journalists had the ability to expose some of the obvious falsehoods promoted by mainstream outlets.

I remember back in the 80s I think where people were complaining about Murdochs powerful influence in pushing certain political views and partices before the rise of the Net. Now that has been completely blurred by many voices vying to be heard and fake news and all that which is making it easier for even small groups and even individuals to have great influence. You are right that the Truth in reporting has been lost but thats a reflection of society as a whole I think.

It's not so much as an attack on a Christian Worldview (these are far more diverse than many Christians care to admit) but it's definitely an attack on right wing politics or anything claimed to be such.

Thats why I linked Right, Conservative and Traditional together because Traditionalists an Conservatives are not always Christains. I know its more varied than that but its just a broad coverall. Many say its an attack on traditional Truth including science and reality itself. I think thats telling as it points to epistemics and metaphysics fundementally. What is real and unreal and what is true or fact in the world and I think this reflects belief and thats why I say 'Worldview' as it seems whichever way you go depends on your beliefs and assumptions about how the world works.

Marxism is in many ways, more accurately described as a religion than a political theory. There is no God, but it does have a great many moral beliefs it adheres to. Marxists always speak in terms of dialectics or rather, they describe a very black or white world. There's no room for nuance, no grey areas. They have their own version of history, their own means of finding truth, and a belief in a glorious utopia that can be created once those standing in its way are removed. This creates a very "ends justify means" mindset in politics and this allows for political violence and scapegoating on a mass scale.

I agree and you make another good point. I think Marxism the economic struggle between the working class and the elites of the establishment has now expanded into a culture war where the Marxist lens of oppressor and victim is playing out across most domains including race, gender sex. This in turn has been expressed as Woke, Cancel Culture and PC which are about morality.

Postmodernism is a very hypocritical attempt at a "power grab" through means which seem very innocuous at first.....language.

I think it stems from Critical Theory which has morphed into not only critically analysing but undermining Grand Narratives and the Truths Western society has held for millenia. This fits well with Marxism and Cancel Culture and Woke. Thats why I think the move away from the Church from God has been a deeveloping belief about how the world and reality is, how we can know what is Truth which questions the status quo being God.

The left has been taken hold by the religion of Marxism in a significant way....and the methods of postmodernism are very much a part of the left's "means".

I think it's worth pointing out though....that Marxism almost always requires revolution. It cannot be implemented piecemeal. That's because it is so divorced from reality that Marxist policies fail immediately in real time. The defund the police movement is a good example, but you can literally take almost any leftist policies and see how they fare. Has DEI initiatives helped the military? No...recruiting is so badly damaged the military is in desperate shape. In the workplace, DEI has led to record numbers of discrimination lawsuits filed and won by white employees. They failed to deliver on increased productivity....and instead have fostered resentment and tribalism in the work environment. I had written off boycotting as an effective method of protest....yet Bud Light and Target have seen themselves severely damaged by a boycott that happened spontaneously and without any real effort or coordination. People simply rejected the company's new religious morals being shoved onto their products.

Like all extreme beliefs they are exposed sonner or later. But I think its more about people rejecting the idea that some group, corporation or political entity are telling them that who they are is somehow wrong or toxic and needs to change. Very judgemental like religion can be. Thats why people have their backs up because its like a New Religion being imposed with unreal and radeical beliefs and ideas.

The only difference is that rather than the typical trimmings of religion this new religion is drapped in nobel causes which allows it to get in deep into Insitutions and politics. There is a current generation of academics who think the same and as we have seen the State wants to indoctrinate children with the same. It is a culture war I think about what is Truth and Reality but its all about belief as to whether humans can create the truth or whether there is some Truth beyond us that stands and has stood throughout time. .

Well take heart. The SCOTUS isn't changing anytime soon and the number of black and latino voters drifting to the right have a lot to do with their strong religious beliefs.

I'm not too worried, it is what it is and the forces at play are bigger than any individual. We can only stand up for our Beliefs and the Truth. The problem I see is that both sides are becoming extreme. I think this will only become more deivided and extreme where violence is used more.

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

All through our history God and Christainity has influenced us on our morals up until around the mid 20th century. This can be seen in laws and moral norms as recent as the 60's and 70's when this began to change. This has culiminated in more unbelievers than believers and replacing Gods Truth with New truths created by humans.

We are now entering an era of a Godless society for the first time in a long time. You could call the early Roman Empire as another time Christainity was not dominant up until around 300AD when the curch was growing. There have been times where the Christainity was reduced but it still guieded our morals. Now that is rapidly beoming not the case.

As an atheist, I can only assure you that I stand by you and all religions in general in any attempt to infringe upon your freedom of religious beliefs and expression....even those which condemn me for my lack of faith.

Part of the New religion taking over is that the Rights of religious belief are being deminished and even relegated down the Rights hierarchy. This is because religious belief is now being seen as not as important. If more people have non belief and become the majority why would religion be relevant. It is seen as outdated, unreal and even divisive because it clashes with the New Religion of Woke.

Truth is not a personal matter....nor is it a religious one. Just ask Galileo.

I agree but Truth, facts and Reality itself have been turned on their heads. The truth the Church pushed was a human made truth but the core tenets of Christainity are beyond personal beliefs and they have been tested and lived out.

Truth has a way of asserting itself to even those most zealous in denying it. As such, it cannot be suppressed forever. It may not be what people wish....and may even be opposite of what they hope....but truth laughs at hope and ignores any personal appeal.

Truth can be undermined by tiny steps and then people begin to accept them incrimentally until thiose timy mistruths builed into a big lie imposed on everyone. Thats how Totalitarism works. That seems to be what is happening now with language and the narrative..

 

[stevevw]

The curtailing of freedom of association is an issue here. We have lost the way to associate to effect peacefulness. We are not able to use our own money to form our own schools, begin to organize to create our own communities etc. If we had complete rights to association None would have to squabble over any of this stuff. This right was curtailed in the civil rights movement, which originally concerned race. We have come to a place there is forced association period. Some are taking to mass exodus, going on from one state to another. How nice would it be to be able to go somewhere to live without all this friction?

Yeah I'm going to buy some land in a far off place and grow me own vegies and stuff lol. The aim of this New ideology is to bring down the status quo and it started in academics and training a generation who are busy implementing the ideology. By picking apart society based on identity group and oppressor/victim mentality only divides and undermines human good will.

Its not the best way to get along by pointing out how immoral certain groups are and that there is something wrong with them rather than find common ground. Sounds like a repeat of religious dogma except this time its not religion. Thats why I believe in Gods Truth that we are made in Gods image aned are all equal and unique individuals under Christ rather than being identified with a particular group. Its worked for millenia why change it.

 

[timothyu]

I went to an independent party leaders little get together tonight and it was a joke. People getting excited to hear what they wanted to hear while the politician spouted lots while saying nothing except to play on people's emotions while he spoke as if winning, not their concerns, was what mattered most. It's all backwards.

 

[stevevw]

Why does anyone need a 'replacement belief' in order to achieve equality, peace and order?

Because as humans we have a natural tendency to believe beyond the material world. Even Atheism is a belief. So when we get rid of one belief or ideology there is not neutral or empty void that exists. We will naturally fill it with some belief about the nature or reality.

Those are humanist aims. They are likewise Christian aims, are they not? And by Christian I mean someone who follows the teachings of Christ. I am most definitely not talking about any given religion.

Yes equality, peace and order are Christain aims. But how that is determined and achieved are different to Secular Humanist and Christain Humanist beliefs.Remember Christ said "Peace I give you but not as the world knows peace". The same with equality where as the secular Humanist focuses on individual Rights that isn't always conducive with Christainity. Christ gave His Rights up for a greater cause. Christains may deny Individual Rights for a greater reward in Heaven.

There is also a difference in how humans and society is ordered. Secular Humanism believes that Humans can create or recreate their own order for themselves and the world and that there is no fixed order about Human nature and even nature itself or how we should behave. Whereas Christains believe in an ordered reality and nature by God (natural law).

So if you were a follower of any Christian religion and then discovered that you couldn't align your acceptance of what Jesus taught with the supernatural aspect of religious belief then what would change? Do you suddenly think that equality, peace and order are not things for which we should strive? Why would you reject what Jesus taught simply because He wasn't divine? Doesn't what He said hold true in any case?

What Jesus says is primarily the Truth not just Gods Word but Truth in reality. Christainity should align practically as well. It isn't just because Christ says its Truth but that it applies naturally and in real situations through reason. I think the difference is Christ claims its the only way, truth and life. If Christ was just another prophet or man then its just another truth claimed and that means anyone can create their own truth and even impose that on others.

We debate about how we shouled order society and achieve these nobel values but I think there is only one way as opposed to many ways to get there. That is the nature of Truth itself if its to mean anything. I think the biggest lie today is that there is no Truth to these matters.

The only difference would be a rejection of any given religion's idea of morality based simply on that fact that 'it is written' and accepting the rather more prosaic position of determining if harm is likely caused.

I think the Truth should cohere with things like 'Do no harm and help others'. So if some religion claims that harming kids is ok we can be suspicious. Reason helps us work out if any claim aligns with the reality and facts of the situation. So belief alone is not enough but as with morality reason ande logic is not enough either. So theer has to be coherence I think practically and metaphysically.

Most religions expose themselves (expose human beliefs and ideas about morality) by not even living up to their own truths because they do harm and not what their own creed tells them is good and bad. Thats one Red Flag but there are others.

We can use the same thinking with todays New Religion of Woke. It claims certain truths that will bring peace, equality and order. But when we look at society we see conflict, division and disorder. So the aim can be the same but how we get there (the ideology) is most important as to achieving these nobel values.

 

[stevevw]

Only kind of, though. We've never really had a thoroughly Christian society. I remember a lecturer of mine pointing out, for example, that medieval kings routinely avoided having their armies fast (the prescribed penance for engaging in warfare) because it would have weakened their fighting capacity.

I'm not talking about the ritualistic beliefs but the core morals which cannot be compromised like Marriage, Abortion, made in Gods image ect. Gods laws and Christs Teachings. I don't think these have changed too much. Like pre-marital sex was illegal in the 1400's and was still socially frowned up up to around the 60's. easy divorce, abortion only came in around the 70's and homosexuality was decriminalized only in the 80s.

I agree that there is, broadly, a set of emerging social norms. I think it's going far too far to describe that as a "new religion."

Really, when you consider how the New Woke Religion virtue signals and condemns certain behaviour and hearsay ande then tries to conform everyone to its creed through shaming I think it has the hallmarks of religious belief.

No, it doesn't. Christianity is not being destroyed. It is changing, but then it's always been changing since Christ ascended.

Yeah Christainity will never be destroyed completely but I don't think its just changing as a matter of natural evolution. Really it shouldn't change. It may be applied to new contexts but the core tenets remain the same. I guess I am saying the core tenents and Truth is being undermined through attacks that are designed to shut it down so its not part of societies narrative and thus irrelevant.

I think it's the other way around. Once we appreciate our separation from God, and come seeking reconciliation, we can begin to see the wisdom in the law (whether that's the two great commandments or the whole OT shebang). Telling people they're sinners, on its own, never got anyone one micron closer to God. Why would they want to be closer to a God who rejects them?

I agree telling people they are sinners without relaying we are all sinners and in the same boat and that there is a captain that can save us if we want is not the best way. But I think its important for us to make clear Gods law and that we are sinners because we cannot appreciate our seperation from God without knowing what seperates from God. God established the Law first to show we are sinners ready the way for Christ.

So let me get this straight; you want a society which orders its laws and social norms on religious laws and social norms, in order to create mass consciousness of sinfulness, and thus drive people into God's arms?

As an evangelistic strategy, I think it's terrible and more likely to backfire than bear much fruit. As a contribution to the common good, I think it's suspect.

No as already mentioned a Theocracy or any system that forces people to conform to a particular belief or ideology doesn't work as we know from our history. Gods laws can be viewed as Truths about humans and the World or reality. So its about living according to we have come to know as Truth through time as we have lived this out. I think if there is any mass consciousness being imposed today its Woke ideology being indoctrinated into all our institutions aned politics.

If, say, you're talking about the truth of the inherent worth and dignity of every human being, sure. We can build a humanist ethic that can be appreciated by people of faith, and people of no faith, alike (remembering that western humanism has deeply Christian roots).

Humanism can be either secular or Christain based and theres a big difference. Christainity is what did away with secular humanism in our early history so we edeon't want it back again as we already know it doesn't work because it hinges on human ideas about human worth and dignity rather than Gods Truth that we are made in His image beyond our own conceptions..We have seen how Humanism works with Rights based Politics and Woke ideology.

If you're talking about "my religion says that thing you like to do is bad, so you shouldn't be allowed to do it," then no, I don't think we should be pushing for that in society.

Yes thats what Woke ideology says "my religion says that thing you like to do is bad, so you shouldn't be allowed to do it," Its called cancel culture or PC.

The measure of "harm" has to be objective and not merely that something transgresses a religious taboo.

I agree.

I really don't buy this. Christian pulpits are occupied, often several times a week. Christians engage in various forms of publishing, from the very sophisticated to the very informal. We use all kinds of media. When we want to make our views known, there are plenty of Christians who have shown they're more than willing to put themselves out there.

For a "silenced" group, we have a very great deal to say. (Says me, who preaches at least four times a week, puts my sermons and other content on FB, participates in informal discussions and online forums, as well as having a voice in other ways).

And you know the grand irony of that? The only group who consistently want to silence me are Christians who take issue with a Christian woman's voice. So I'm inclined to say, don't talk to me about Christians being silenced!

I am not talking about your particular experience but was thinking more about in the public square than preaching to the converted. As an opinion or view among many in the public square religion in general but specifically Christainity is being deminished and even targeted as a less valued voice or even one that goes against the norm. You only have to do a quick search for this on line and you will find that either Christianity, Conservative or Traditional voices are unwanted on social media platforms especially.

This is just a small example, you could include J. K Rawling, Margaret Court, Riley Gaines, and Jordan Peterson about a 100 times lol. I linked a few examples to show that this is becoming pretty wiespread. we here of the more famous examples but there are many average Joe Blows being harrassed out there we don't here about.

Facebook accused of 'censoring' Christian views

Facebook accused of 'censoring' Christian views - Premier Christian News | Headlines, Breaking News, Comment & Analysis

Social networking site Facebook is being accused of censoring Christian views by removing controversial posts with little reason and no appeals process.

premierchristian.news

Margaret Atwood sparks anger and disappointment with ‘why can’t we say woman’ tweet

Margaret Atwood sparks anger with ‘why can’t we say woman anymore’ tweet

Acclaimed author Margaret Atwood has ignited outrage after she reposted an article titled: 'Why can't we say "woman" anymore?'

www.thepinknews.com

Attacks on Candace Cameron Bure Expose Ruthlessness of LGBT Activists Against Christians

Attacks on Candace Cameron Bure Expose Ruthlessness of LGBT Activists Against Christians

Actress Candace Cameron Bure is being attacked for refusing to pledge to feature same-sex couples in her new Christmas movies.

www.dailysignal.com

Atlanta Fire Chief Fired for Expressing Christian Beliefs

Atlanta Fire Chief Fired for Expressing Christian Beliefs

He wrote in a book for his Bible study about homosexuality.

www.dailysignal.com

UK Christian Politician Wins Payout After Being Fired for Her Biblical Beliefs on Marriage

UK Christian Politician Wins Payout After Being Fired for Her Biblical Beliefs on Marriage

A U.K.

www2.cbn.com

I think we can get to that, once we get past trying to impose Christian morals on everyone. Because coercion does not promote flourishing.

I think we are way past people being able to impose their Christain morals on anyone. Christains now get shot down just for mentioning Christain Truths let alone preach. What we should be more concernede about is the New religion thats taken over which is imposing on and coercing people to follow their morals of Woke. I think thats when Christains need to speak up and not be silent as there is a lot at stake such as human flourishing.

There's a time and place. I've talked to protestors outside abortion clinics, for example, who truly believed they were being loving to the women they harassed. They could not see the intimidation and genuine fear they were causing to already incredibly suffering women (and from my perspective as a neutral observer sympathetic to the pro-life position, their behaviour was atrocious). It's not their views, on their own, that were the problem, but the way they were expressing them was a problem for sure.

So how should Christains express their beliefs about abortion in society. Whats the deifference between say BLM or Extinction rebellion getting in the face of people to voice their beliefs. What about how the State steps in to Indigenous communities to stop alcohol and child abuse such as with Non cash cards and alcohol bans which infringe their freedoms. I don't think most people want to harm others who they disagree with but feel the need to take action and make a noise because they believe its a serious matter especially when it comes to childrens rights.

I've given you a couple of examples in this post, and I have more. I am quite comfortable to repeat, I have known far more violence, intimidation and hatred from Christians, than from non-Christians.

Like I said I don't doubt your personal experience but I don't think its a true reflection of whats happening. But are you saying that in general Christains are more violent. I think a minority are extreme and bad but not generally. Independent reseach seems to show that Christain descrimination and harrassment is increasing while harassment of non Christains is descreasing.

Heres a couple of links that go into the background of our changing times and how the tide is turning on Christainity and religion in general. It helps understand the cultural and sociological factors that have got us to this point in time and why I think its a watershe moment in our history.

New research shows religious discrimination is on the rise around the world, including in Australia
New research shows religious discrimination is on the rise around the world, including in Australia
The question of religious freedom in a post-secular society
https://www.abc.net.au/religion/the-question-of-religious-freedom-in-a-post-secular-society/11088574
Religious discrimination is a reality in Australia. Fox’s work warns us it is a reality that is not going away anytime soon.
New research shows religious discrimination is on the rise around the world, including in Australia

I will leave it at that for the time being regards Steve.

 

[Paidiske]

I'm not talking about the ritualistic beliefs but the core morals which cannot be compromised like Marriage, Abortion, made in Gods image ect. Gods laws and Christs Teachings.

As if mass killing of one another weren't the most appallingly egregious example of ignoring the core morals!

I don't think these have changed too much.

In many ways they have. Our conception of marriage has changed; we no longer legally accept that it's basically the transfer of a piece of female property from her father to a husband. Our conception of abortion has changed; once it was not regarded as particularly a problem before "quickening." Our conception of what it means to be made in God's image has changed; since once we did not see that as an impediment to slavery, and so on.

When we actually look at how thinking has changed over the centuries, none of these things have been nearly as static as some might like to imagine. It's a very common mistake, but a mistake nonetheless, to assume that what we take for granted was always the status quo.

Really, when you consider how the New Woke Religion virtue signals and condemns certain behaviour and hearsay ande then tries to conform everyone to its creed through shaming I think it has the hallmarks of religious belief.

That's not saying much for religion, is it?

Even if I were to accept that there is such a thing as the "New Woke Religion" (and I don't, or at least I think it's such a gross simplification as to become unhelpfully detached from reality), I'm not sure that much of its discourse tries to spiritualise.

Really it shouldn't change.

Well, it's always been changing, so I don't see any particular reason why not. In fact, I suspect that if we refuse to change, we're likely to die. Refusing to change inevitably leads to death.

I guess I am saying the core tenents and Truth is being undermined through attacks that are designed to shut it down so its not part of societies narrative and thus irrelevant.

Oh, I get that's what you're saying. I just absolutely don't buy it. Non-Christian society is no longer willing to live within the moral confines of a belief system they don't share. And why should they?

But that's not an attack on Christianity, or on Truth. It's saying we don't get to dictate to everyone else. If that feels like an attack, we need to get some perspective.

But I think its important for us to make clear Gods law and that we are sinners because we cannot appreciate our seperation from God without knowing what seperates from God.

Ok, so that is (in your view) an evangelistic task. And we expect secular laws to do our evangelist work for us because...?

No as already mentioned a Theocracy or any system that forces people to conform to a particular belief or ideology doesn't work as we know from our history. Gods laws can be viewed as Truths about humans and the World or reality. So its about living according to we have come to know as Truth through time as we have lived this out.

Right. Forcing conformity doesn't work. Christians are free to live according to our convictions about Truth. What more do you expect? Why would someone who doesn't even believe in God, accept your take on Truth? I don't even accept your take on Truth, and I'm much closer to you in terms of fundamental convictions!

I think if there is any mass consciousness being imposed today its Woke ideology being indoctrinated into all our institutions aned politics.

Mmhmm. Mostly, what I see being taken up by institutions and in politics is the need to create a safe society for everyone; including people who have traditionally not been safe (which is, by the way, one problem with your argument about "Truth through time as we have lived this out." We've tested some of these truth claims and found them sorely lacking).

We have seen how Humanism works with Rights based Politics and Woke ideology.

You mean things like, equality for women and people of diverse ethnicities? I'm not seeing that what you're busy demonising has been all bad.

Yes thats what Woke ideology says "my religion says that thing you like to do is bad, so you shouldn't be allowed to do it," Its called cancel culture or PC.

What thing would you like to do that you're not currently allowed to do?

I am not talking about your particular experience but was thinking more about in the public square than preaching to the converted.

It's both. I mean, I was on the ABC the other night. (That was fun). To claim that Christians in Australia are silenced is just completely false.

As an opinion or view among many in the public square religion in general but specifically Christainity is being deminished and even targeted as a less valued voice or even one that goes against the norm.

Sure, we go against the norm. We can speak; nobody's obliged to like what we say, or agree. And let's remind ourselves here; our loss of public credibility is largely due to our own massive failures. We have to wear that.

This is just a small example, you could include J. K Rawling, Margaret Court, Riley Gaines, and Jordan Peterson about a 100 times lol.

I know enough about enough of those people to know that their issues aren't just being Christian (in fact, I had to google to check if Rowling even had a religious faith, because that's sure not to the fore in her public image). All of them - and I note that there are occasions when I agree with some of their views and others when I don't - have been provocative in their public statements. Now, that might be their choice, and it doesn't justify (for example) death threats in response, but I am not going to say that being a Christian ought to get someone a free pass to be as objectionable as they like without any consequences.

I think we are way past people being able to impose their Christain morals on anyone.

Doesn't stop them trying, though. I mean, the whole No campaign for the marriage plebiscite was a pretty strong attempt!

Christains now get shot down just for mentioning Christain Truths let alone preach.

You know, a big part of why I don't buy this is that it's not my experience. And I'm out there, I'm a public figure, I'm active on social media, I'm forthright and I'm stubborn enough not to walk away from an argument more often than is wise. But! I work very hard to speak my understanding of Christian truth in a way which is sensitive to the wounds of others. And amazingly, while I've had my share of run-ins and heated conversations, I'm still able to engage on whatever platform or forum I've chosen.

So don't tell me this is about Christians not being able to be publicly Christian. More like, Christians aren't being given a pass for using Christian "truth" in harmful ways.

What we should be more concernede about is the New religion thats taken over which is imposing on and coercing people to follow their morals of Woke.

We have to play nicely with others. Oh the horror!

So how should Christains express their beliefs about abortion in society.

There might be any number of ways that aren't harassing distressed women in crisis. That I have to point that out is really rather disturbing.

Whats the deifference between say BLM or Extinction rebellion getting in the face of people to voice their beliefs.

As I understand it, neither of those movements makes a point of targeting vulnerable people in crisis. I'm not opposed to protesting at all, but again, there's a time, a place, and a way to do it...

What about how the State steps in to Indigenous communities to stop alcohol and child abuse such as with Non cash cards and alcohol bans which infringe their freedoms.

I am not going to pretend expertise on Indigenous issues, because I don't have any. I know there are significant issues with cashless welfare. As I understand it, it's often the elders of the community who've requested alcohol bans, so it's a little more complicated than just state control. I don't know what the answers are, but if you want to talk about worldviews colliding, we might have to acknowledge that Indigenous worldviews and western worldviews are (to borrow a word from Indigenous Professor Aileen Moreton-Robinson) incommensurable.

Like I said I don't doubt your personal experience but I don't think its a true reflection of whats happening.

There are so many other people's stories out there, though. I think of the people I speak to who are survivors of conversion therapy. Who have been abused in their marriages and told to stay because Christ would want them to submit. Of violence on the streets and in homes. Of bomb threats and death threats. Of people who lose their jobs, their homes. This is many people's lived experiences of Christians and Christianity, and if we're not honest about that, even with ourselves, there's no way we can move forward with dealing with colliding worldviews!

But are you saying that in general Christains are more violent.

No. I am saying that in general, there is far more violence aimed at the progressive/liberal/secular end of the community from the conservative/traditional/Christian end, than the other way around.

I've never sat with a conservative person who was bashed by a group of gay people, but dear Lord, too often I have sat with the gay person bashed by homophobes. And then we wonder why they reject our "truth"!

I think a minority are extreme and bad but not generally.

For sure. But as I said, I've never been threatened with physical harm by an atheist, but the Christians... that's another story.

I'm not saying there's no discrimination against people of faith, because there is (although Christians probably aren't copping it the most there, either). But to try to present the situation as us being the persecuted minority, without acknowledging the bigger picture, is again, not being honest about reality.

 

[Bradskii]

Because as humans we have a natural tendency to believe beyond the material world.

Most do. Which is is irrelevant to what we should be aiming for.

Yes equality, peace and order are Christain aims. But how that is determined and achieved are different to Secular Humanist and Christain Humanist beliefs.

I'm afraid that the greatest divisions are between religious groups. That's why I have excluded religions from my argument. There are simply too many variations on a theme. And that is why I concentrated on what Jesus taught. His aims and mine, and yours, are the same. You don't need a belief in anything beyond the material world to understand and aspire to those aims.