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When two worldviews collide.

Bradskii

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Why when I just showed you the actual quote...
Look (Bradskii said through gritted teeth), you were complaining about pronouns. You were discussing transgenderism. You stated that the majority of Australians have a problem with transgenderism and pronouns. You gave a link that said the complete opposite and the second only discussed political correctness, which is a general subject I am not interested in discussing. So...I gave you the following which showed that the vast majority of Australians have zero problems with transgenderism.


So how do we, as Australians, think about what we are discussing? Glad you asked. Because we have that info here: New research shows overwhelming support among Australians on trans equality - Equality Australia

'78% of Australians agree that trans people deserve the same rights and protections as other Australians...Only 7% of Australians actively disagree with this sentiment.'

Deal with that or not. I'm losing not only any interest in this discussion but the very will to live...
 
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FireDragon76

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Basically - I'm hearing that you're born with morality "in potential". You subsequently may realise (make real) your potential.

The discussion is about whether the morality is real at birth or in potential at birth, ready for realisation.

????

Children are born with moral intuitions about the world, at least, they develop at a young age in a more or less uniform manner. Nothing we would recognize as a "moral code" though. More like a sense of fairness, and a dislike of unfairness.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Here's an outline of what due process might look like:

"It’s important that before dismissing an employee you can show you have:

I don't know where you got confused....but I'm not talking about getting fired.

I got a bad evaluation and am now depressed. I'm not fired....I've simply incurred psychological damages that you apparently think employers should be liable for.


At the end of the day, employers have an obligation to provide a safe workplace. If behaving in a way which keeps the workplace safe for everyone is so crippling to you, then what do you expect the employer to do?

Why don't you ask this of the trans person who demands control over everyone's speech? Serious question....don't dodge it or I'll point it out.

If behaving in a way that allows everyone in the workplace to retain their freedom of speech is so crippling to the trans person....what do they expect the employer to do?

Allow you to behave in a disruptive and damaging way?

What's more disruptive? Controlling the speech of the entire staff? Or asking employees to leave their personal ideologies at home and not expect everyone to conform to their faith?

Or does there come a point where everyone needs to acknowledge that maybe this isn't the right workplace for you?

Maybe it's not the right workplace for the trans person?

The woke- "nothing is ever our fault, and it never will be."
 
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Paidiske

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I don't know where you got confused....but I'm not talking about getting fired.

I got a bad evaluation and am now depressed. I'm not fired....I've simply incurred psychological damages that you apparently think employers should be liable for.
The process outlined above would be an indication of what due process would look like anyway. If the employer can show that they've treated you fairly, given you a chance to respond, given you support to improve, and so on, they're probably not liable. If they've offered that feedback in a way that amounts to bullying, they might be.
If behaving in a way that allows everyone in the workplace to retain their freedom of speech is so crippling to the trans person....what do they expect the employer to do?
You don't have freedom of speech in the workplace. You agree to be bound by the policies and processes your employer puts in place.

But that's not a safety issue for the person wanting "freedom of speech." This is a workplace issue because it's a safety issue.
The woke- "nothing is ever our fault, and it never will be."
The irony, when I am not a trans person, and I am advocating for the workplace safety of trans people, and saying it may well be "our" fault if we compromise that safety.
 
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Ana the Ist

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The process outlined above would be an indication of what due process would look like anyway.

In other words, it doesn't actually matter if I'm psychologically damaged by my employers actions.


You don't have freedom of speech in the workplace.

I'm well aware of that...but my employer can't ask me to alter my speech to affirm their faith based beliefs. If the employer wants to hold a team meeting and pray for a productive day....that's fine, but he can't require me to participate.




But that's not a safety issue for the person wanting "freedom of speech." This is a workplace issue because it's a safety issue.

If I'm required to conform to my employer's faith based beliefs....and gender is absolutely that....no argument in the world will provide evidence of gender and a simple DNA test will confirm my position.

I don't have to participate in your faith.

And your authoritarian tendency to try and force me to isn't endearing.



The irony, when I am not a trans person, and I am advocating for the workplace safety of trans people, and saying it may well be "our" fault if we compromise that safety.

You're woke. You won't be blaming yourself. You're virtue signaling that you aren't to blame. That's why you put quotes around "our"....you don't really mean you.
 
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Paidiske

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In other words, it doesn't actually matter if I'm psychologically damaged by my employers actions.
I can only explain to you the law as I understand it. Perhaps if your employer follows best practice and you're still harmed you'd have a case, but I don't know how the courts would see it.
I'm well aware of that...but my employer can't ask me to alter my speech to affirm their faith based beliefs.
Asking you not to harass another employee is not affirming your employer's faith based beliefs, though. It might bear no relation to your employer's beliefs.
I don't have to participate in your faith.

And your authoritarian tendency to try and force me to isn't endearing.
This has nothing to do with faith, and everything to do with workplace safety. For which we all have some responsibility.
 
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Kale100

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You don't have freedom of speech in the workplace. You agree to be bound by the policies and processes your employer puts in place.
It's not quite that simple. The government creates laws concerning what may or may not be harassment, hostile-work-environment, discrimination, etc, and the threat of lawsuits results in companies acting in a proactive manner of extra/extreme caution. Our agreement is only that it is better than being unemployed to submit to the policies and processes the government soft mandates employers put in place.
 
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Bradskii

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I posted this link previously, but you might find it a helpful read: The neuroscience of morality and social decision-making
I read that just now and a couple of times I had to get up and walk around the table thinking 'Yes! Why doesn't everyone else see this!'

The problem is that it suggests that we have less control over our acts that we think we do. It's to some extent like Daniel Kahneman's Thinking Fast and Slow or Jonathan Haidt's Elephant and Rider. We're subconsciously making decisions on (evolved) instinct and then post fact consciously making up a justification for it. 'Hey, it was obviously what I wanted to do'.

But it impacts hugely on our concept of free will (in some sense I don't think it exists) and the implications that has regards justice is something with which I've never been able to come to terms.
 
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Bradskii

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It's not quite that simple. The government creates laws concerning what may or may not be harassment, hostile-work-environment, discrimination, etc, and the threat of lawsuits results in companies acting in a proactive manner of extra/extreme caution. Our agreement is only that it is better than being unemployed to submit to the policies and processes the government soft mandates employers put in place.
The laws are there so that if you take a job then you know that you are protected from discrimination and harassment. Unsurprisingly enough, they also apply to you as well.
 
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Ana the Ist

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I can only explain to you the law as I understand it. Perhaps if your employer follows best practice and you're still harmed you'd have a case, but I don't know how the courts would see it.

It's not a case.


Asking you not to harass another employee is not affirming your employer's faith based beliefs, though.

You keep using this word harass....

I'm being told to lie about what I believe because of what someone else believes. The only difference between my beliefs those I'm told to lie about are my beliefs are matters of fact, filled with biological evidence. The trans person is engaging in faith based beliefs, about a fanciful concept called gender.

Surely, you understand that if an employer requires me to engage in prayer to Jesus Christ before work....I, as an atheist, am the one being harassed.

If the trans person requires my affirmation ...they are harassing me. Just as the Christians would be in the example above. It's literally no different.

I require absolutely nothing of the trans person. The can call themselves a lampshade for all I care.




It might bear no relation to your employer's beliefs.

Even worse. Why has my trans coworkers' beliefs been elevated to a tyrannical level of privilege over me?

I've asked no such thing from them.

What an awful group of people.


This has nothing to do with faith, and everything to do with workplace safety.

It has everything to do with faith. It doesn't matter if my being an atheist causes you to fall into a deep permanent depression for the rest of your life because you believe I'll burn in hell.


To demand I adopt your beliefs for your benefit is a disgusting request that you should rightly be ashamed to make. If it bothers you so much, the solution is to quit your job.
 
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Ana the Ist

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The laws are there so that if you take a job then you know that you are protected from discrimination and harassment. Unsurprisingly enough, they also apply to you as well.

There's no laws that allow me to force you to lie about what you believe.
 
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Paidiske

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If it bothers you so much, the solution is to quit your job.
I think we've reached another point where your position is plain, and thank goodness it isn't the one driving policy and law.
 
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Ana the Ist

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I think we've reached another point where your position is plain, and thank goodness it isn't the one driving policy and law.

Fortunately, law hasn't been passed on this issue at the national level. It was wrongfully added to the amendment by executive order. That's why states have had such an easy time passing laws contrary to the order. If challenged in court....the federal government will almost certainly lose, as the president cannot simply rewrite an amendment as he chooses.

Even if Biden wins another 4 years....it seems unlikely to survive his administration.

Edit- and we both know why you decided to bow out here....

Of course it would be wrong for Christians to demand I affirm their faith in the workplace.

Of course it doesn't matter if they are heartbroken, anxious, depressed or otherwise psychologically impaired if I don't share their faiths. It's their problem, not mine.

Of course it would be tyrannical and oppressive for them to try and force me to lie about who I am and what I believe.

The trans person can be seamlessly transposed with the Christians above....it's no different.

You just ran out of ways to argue otherwise. You see it...even if you don't want to admit it.
 
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stevevw

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a "moral sense" you're born with.
Ok I see what you mean. It could be programmed like by evolution. But I think that doesn't explain a lot like agency, free will and consciousness. It tells us how it happened but not why. I mean it does try to explain why such as cooperation ect but these seem inadequate.

So there seems to be another aspect to morality that is transcendent of mechanical and physical processes and social/cultural constructions. The fact that we all come up with the same basic morals regardless of culture points to this.

What that is we don't quite know but I think its a real part of us. Some may say its the spiritual sie or the soul. It seems that humans are also natural believers in a creative and moral agent of some sort behind what we see and in disembodied spirits and life after death.

So whether your religious or not this moral sense and spirituality seems something we come into the world with and we cannot just rationalize it away or expunge it out of us. So in that sense its sort of programmed in that its innate but I don't think material and mechanical processes can explain what it is and where it came from.
 
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FireDragon76

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Ok I see what you mean. It could be programmed like by evolution. But I think that doesn't explain a lot like agency, free will and consciousness.

How do your religious beliefs explain consciousness? "God did it" isn't much of an explanation.

So there seems to be another aspect to morality that is transcendent of mechanical and physical processes and social/cultural constructions. The fact that we all come up with the same basic morals regardless of culture points to this.

What makes you think religion or God has much to do with morality? God causes the rain to fall on the just and unjust. It seems to me it's certain human beings that are obsessed with getting morality right.

What that is we don't quite know but I think its a real part of us. Some may say its the spiritual sie or the soul. It seems that humans are also natural believers in a creative and moral agent of some sort behind what we see and in disembodied spirits and life after death.

Now you are touching on a topic I spent a great deal of the last part of the pandemic researching on my own, during my own deconstruction.

Mystical and spiritual experiences are quite varied and don't really reconcile with American Evangelical's worldview. The evidence seems to better support a subjective idealist metaphysics, that the deepest part of our being is in fact the same consciousness, or perhaps panpsychism. It doesn't support the notion of religious exclusivism so cherished by some American Evangelicals as absolute truth. If anything, it reinforces the notion that we all have different perspectives on what the truth is, and one isn't automatically better than the others just because we think it must be so.
 
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Confused-by-christianity

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So is morality inbuilt? Weeeell...you might say that we have the ability to understand the grammar. But the vocabulary is socially dependent. That needs to be input.
Yeah - i think thats a good way of putting it :)
 
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Confused-by-christianity

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Children are born with moral intuitions about the world, at least, they develop at a young age in a more or less uniform manner. Nothing we would recognize as a "moral code" though. More like a sense of fairness, and a dislike of unfairness.
Yeah @Bradskii was saying that too. Post #1,939
 
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Ana the Ist

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So there seems to be another aspect to morality that is transcendent of mechanical and physical processes and social/cultural constructions. The fact that we all come up with the same basic morals regardless of culture points to this.

We don't come up with the same morals "regardless of culture". That's a blatantly false statement.

There's immoral behavior seen as absolutely morally acceptable in various cultures throughout history that frankly, you would be appalled by. It's acceptable, right now, in certain cultures in Afghanistan to buy a boy as a sex slave. Those same cultures find it unnatural to have sex with their wives unless for the purpose of having children. Ancient Roman men were legally allowed to kill their wives and children. Spartans left any child, small or weak or disfigured to die of exposure. Slavery is still a problem in Africa today and not seen immoral by those doing the buying or enslaving. The Maori sea tribe had no qualms about genocide and cannibalism of anyone they deemed inferior.

These are extreme examples of course but girls in Japan have long been fondled and groped on crowded trains and it's been normalized, morally, to an extent....though I think that one has died off some in recent years. Suicide however, is still commonly seen as an honorable way to accept failure of some duty.

I honestly don't know how many times Christians make the bizarre statement of "we all basically have the same morals" but the exact opposite is exactly what the facts are. We don't. Moral predisposition vary wildly.
 
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Confused-by-christianity

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Ok I see what you mean. ... ... ...material and mechanical processes can explain what it is and where it came from.
I like the concepts of the evolved and revealed to help me model things.

Evolved
A morality might be evolved, even some basics of a religion can be evolved.

The goal of evolution of survival - and so fear plays a big part in the morality or religion. Fear is not a quality motivation though.

Revealed
God reveals to us wonderful things that make us want to break out and get to him. So higher morality that is not fear based can be developed. Higher religion too.

Humanity goes from running away from the bad thing to running towards the good thing.

I know the above ↑ isn't perfect, but i like the model and find it useful
 
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Ana the Ist

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If anything, it reinforces the notion that we all have different perspectives on what the truth is, and one isn't automatically better than the others just because we think it must be so.

It's not because we think so....it's because objective reality exists. If you and I stand atop a skyscraper....me unwilling to jump without a parachute for fear of death and you thinking that if you aim for a puddle below, you'll land without harm are not equal in regards to truth. It's certainly not because we say so....it's because objective reality exists, and evidence tells the tale on whose perception of truth is better.
 
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