When two worldviews collide.

[Jonathan_Gale]

In discussing some of the moral issues facing society such as gender, sex, race, Rights, identity politics ect relating to how we as a society should structure ourselves I have found that a polarisation is happening between two broad worldviews. On the one side the Left which I think is more likely to be athiest or more pluralistic about belief and on the other is the Right which are more conservative and traditional and more likely to be Christain. Though I think there is degrees of variance where some will also be open to opposing views to some degree.

But it seems things have become more polarised is recent times deue to society moving away from a Christain worldview to a secular one. In the past there was more middle ground and basically people I think were more traditional had belief and progressives were seen as out of step. I think today the Left has gained a lot of ground mainly due to a reaction to percieved past injustices by traditionalist or Christains and being more open to alternative ideas.

In the past Western societies were based on Christain values but in the last few decades God and Christainity has been rejected and in its place the State has become the arbitor of societal morals and infringed more on peoples private lives. Of course a lot has happened in that time with social media which I think has had a profound impact on thinking undermining truth and has given individuals and groups much power to push their views and influence governments and society.

But the result of all this is that there is a growing division between the Christian Worldview and the Secular Worldview to the point that they clash even violently like people want to destroy Christains aned opposing views and it seems the State is actively siding with the a secular position with the help of certain lobbyist. They have been actively dismantaling Christainity and taking God completely out of the picture in our institutions and public life generally, I should say its not always just Christains but also traditionalist and others who believe in the Truths that the West was built upon such as Enlightement and Democracy. Many on the Left also seem to support some sort of Marxism so this polarisation seems to be political and religious.

I guess our present situation is also the result of Postmodernism the idea of tearing down the old truths and archetypes of the West and society has become more individualistic and relative. Its a complex combination of factors but the thing that stands out for me is that there seems to be a showdown brewing between Christain and traditionalist and the Secularist and the Left and I think the Left is winning at the moment. I can see this continuing where Christainity is pushed to the fringes.

So we are at a point for the first time in a long time in our history where societies efforts to rid themselves of God and Christainity will see secularist and non believers outnumbering Christains and completely rejecting God from society.

But is this new World completely devoid of belief or is society replacing God and Christainity with some new religion, a secular religion which has been able to grow disguised as something else like some new utopia that promises to do away with injustice and inequality and bring people true happiness. I think so as it seems that peoples reaction to Christainity and God today isn't just about a new way but is tied to their identity and debates are often full of feelings even to the point of wanting to destroy others who disagree,

So I think this is a fight for Truth and there can only be one Truth. But today truth has lost all meaning and personal truth has become the only truth. But I think the Truth as in the one Truth we all know is real will shine through in the end, but its going to be a fight in the meantime where many false ideas will seem to win out and may fool many.

Polarization and division is nothing new, it was so in the days of Elijah - "And Elijah came to all the people, and said, “How long will you falter between two opinions? If the LORD is God, follow Him; but if Baal, follow him.”- 1 Kings 18:21. We are living in the days of Elijah, the final three and a half years of tribulation is nigh.

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

@Paidiske @Bradskii @stevevw

Whenever these things come up, I always have Marvel Comics Thor in my mind.

With powerful weapons like mjolnir, stormbreaker or pheonix force, they should be so powerful they destroy the user, but they don't.

The great thing about Thor is that he is sturdy enough to provide the support that these powerful weapons can be attached to.

Then, he said it himself (I jumped up when I heard him say it "I KNEW IT!!")

Star-Lord: Don’t you think we all should have a weapon like that?​

Thor: No, you simply lack the strength to wield it, your bodies will crumble as your minds collapse into madness.​

​

In our conversation - it's not that we are born so highly moral, but that we are capable of supporting high moral codes being bolted onto us.

Also, another thought i have is everything bolts onto something worthy.
Components → engine → car → earths gravity → sun → galaxy.

I know the above isn't perfect - but just some thoughts i have sometimes

 

[stevevw]

Look (Bradskii said through gritted teeth), you were complaining about pronouns. You were discussing transgenderism. You stated that the majority of Australians have a problem with transgenderism and pronouns. You gave a link that said the complete opposite and the second only discussed political correctness, which is a general subject I am not interested in discussing. So...I gave you the following which showed that the vast majority of Australians have zero problems with transgenderism.


So how do we, as Australians, think about what we are discussing? Glad you asked. Because we have that info here: New research shows overwhelming support among Australians on trans equality - Equality Australia

'78% of Australians agree that trans people deserve the same rights and protections as other Australians...Only 7% of Australians actively disagree with this sentiment.'

Deal with that or not. I'm losing not only any interest in this discussion but the very will to live...

As I know I am telling the truth and I know my own views and position on this I would like you to explain something. If the statement I was making was defending transwomen why would Paidiske be arguing against transwomen.

 

[stevevw]

Polarization and division is nothing new, it was so in the days of Elijah - "And Elijah came to all the people, and said, “How long will you falter between two opinions? If the LORD is God, follow Him; but if Baal, follow him.”- 1 Kings 18:21. We are living in the days of Elijah, the final three and a half years of tribulation is nigh.

Thats interesting. Thankyou. It seems the division and extremism is becoming worse where now even words are seen as violence and as a result people are actually attacking and sacking people based on the words they say. Each side has a different understanding of the words and language. I know the old saying the pen is mightier than the sword but this is getting way out of hand.

But the words represent an ideological battle where both sides believe they are right. Its a cultural war but its also a spiritual war where there a deeper battle going on for the souls of people.

 

[stevevw]

I like the concepts of the evolved and revealed to help me model things.

Evolved
A morality might be evolved, even some basics of a religion can be evolved.

The goal of evolution of survival - and so fear plays a big part in the morality or religion. Fear is not a quality motivation though.

Revealed
God reveals to us wonderful things that make us want to break out and get to him. So higher morality that is not fear based can be developed. Higher religion too.

Humanity goes from running away from the bad thing to running towards the good thing.

I know the above ↑ isn't perfect, but i like the model and find it useful

Yeah its a bit of both. It may be that God made us in a way that as we evolved and consciousness became greater we took on Gods image more, became aware of ourselves, others and our place in the greater scheme of Gods creation. But I don't think that means morality is just a evolutionary process a mechanism that can reduce morality down to its mechanistic processes.

I think that spark of God is in us already and the Bible tells us God made us in His image. So maybe it just came out as we evolved and in that sense it was revealed to us.

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

Yeah its a bit of both. It may be that God made us in a way that as we evolved and consciousness became greater we took on Gods image more, became aware of ourselves, others and our place in the greater scheme of Gods creation. But I don't think that means morality is just a evolutionary process a mechanism that can reduce morality down to its mechanistic processes.

I think that spark of God is in us already and the Bible tells us God made us in His image. So maybe it just came out as we evolved and in that sense it was revealed to us.

I believe we all have a spark of god within us.

I think we work together with it (if we want) to create a life and reach higher than our evolution ever could get us.

 

[rjs330]

So did you ask your friend, referring to his son: 'Is he coming with us?' Or did you stand up for your beliefs and say 'Is she coming with us?'

I didn't ask that question. If I would have I would have said "Is David coming with us?"

And by the way I feel very bad for David. David is a very unhappy and struggling person. The surgeries and drugs didn't help. David is very disturbed by the hair loss, the loss of her beautiful hair. David has some deep mental health issues. It's heartbreaking really.

 

[rjs330]

This notion of a "gay agenda" is no different than the blood libel accusation that superstitious Christians leveled against Jews. It's an unwarranted and unfounded conspiracy theory that gets people killed, and is therefore repugnant to actual morality. Jesus Christ, who taught us to love our enemies, to bless those who persecute us, would certainly not countenance something like that.

That might be true if it wasn't happening. But it is. Apparently denialism is alive and well.

 

[rjs330]

At the end of the day, employers have an obligation to provide a safe workplace. If behaving in a way which keeps the workplace safe for everyone is so crippling to you, then what do you expect the employer to do? Allow you to behave in a disruptive and damaging way? Or does there come a point where everyone needs to acknowledge that maybe this isn't the right workplace for you?

Except for the one who has to lie. They don't have to provide a safe work place for them. They can be stressed out by being forced to lie. The employer is allowing the trans person to behave in a disruptive and damaging way by allowing them to control other people's speech and morality.

I see so once again the idea is to bully the person out of there. The authoritarian demand that you must comply or you will be punished. The authoritarian left strikes again and shows just how much they bully people. 2+2=5. You will comply.

Perhaps the trans person needs to be told that if they are trying to FORCE others to reject their morality and FORCE them to lie and change language and be stressed about violating their own values perhaps that isn't the work place for them.

Whatever happened to let's get along? It's funny how transgenderism is the only mental health issue that requires everyone else in the world to change rather than the individual working on themselves.

Once again we find the left is very authoritarian. Enforcing their way upon others at the point of a gun. Wouldn't it be much better if we just said no?

How about Sally just says, "If you call me Sally and don't say anything about my dress we can get along just fine. I won't force you to alter language or violate your values. We can still work together and accomplish want needs to be done."

 

[rjs330]

The irony, when I am not a trans person, and I am advocating for the workplace safety of trans people, and saying it may well be "our" fault if we compromise that safety.

What safety. The trans person is perfectly safe. They are not going to be injured or killed you know just cause someone doesn't want to tell a lie.

 

[MehGuy]

Sad thing is.. if someone does work with a tran.. regardless of beliefs.. most will probably just use their preferred pronouns in order to avoid the awkwardness, lol.

Maybe others are more cold? I happen to think there is something to trans where I will use their pronouns (within reason..I have little respect for the more out there ones thrown around) but even if I was staunchly on the side of the mental illness camp.. I don't think I can really go ahead and repeatedly missgender them. Which is a sad thought.. but realistically trans people will probably get their way. Even if there are no workplace consequences for misgendering them.

Curious if there is anyone here who's actually been put to the test in real life? Especially those who are more in the 'its a mental illness camp'.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Except for the one who has to lie. They don't have to provide a safe work place for them. They can be stressed out by being forced to lie. The employer is allowing the trans person to behave in a disruptive and damaging way by allowing them to control other people's speech and morality.

I see so once again the idea is to bully the person out of there. The authoritarian demand that you must comply or you will be punished. The authoritarian left strikes again and shows just how much they bully people. 2+2=5. You will comply.

Perhaps the trans person needs to be told that if they are trying to FORCE others to reject their morality and FORCE them to lie and change language and be stressed about violating their own values perhaps that isn't the work place for them.

Whatever happened to let's get along? It's funny how transgenderism is the only mental health issue that requires everyone else in the world to change rather than the individual working on themselves.

Once again we find the left is very authoritarian. Enforcing their way upon others at the point of a gun. Wouldn't it be much better if we just said no?

How about Sally just says, "If you call me Sally and don't say anything about my dress we can get along just fine. I won't force you to alter language or violate your values. We can still work together and accomplish want needs to be done."

Trans activists- "I'm a victim of this person who refuses to submit to my personal faith based views and demands of control of their language. It makes me sad, so I'm the victim."


The woke cult- "Sounds reasonable to us, we should pass laws restricting their rights and indoctrinate their children."

Backlash against this garbage suddenly manifests in the middle east and Africa and these people have the nerve to blame conservative Christians. It's not the messed up parents taking their children to drag queen sex toy story hour....it's not the pride parades where they start chanting "we're coming for your children". Nope....it's the people going "maybe we should take depictions of porn out of the children's books."

Other nations are watching us speedrun the lgbtq nonsense and saying "Well that looks like a disaster"...and going the other direction.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I didn't ask that question. If I would have I would have said "Is David coming with us?"

And by the way I feel very bad for David. David is a very unhappy and struggling person. The surgeries and drugs didn't help. David is very disturbed by the hair loss, the loss of her beautiful hair. David has some deep mental health issues. It's heartbreaking really.

I think part of the problem there is twofold....


1. Sex change surgery/medical transitioning is billed as this solution because you will "become" the opposite sex. You won't. The medical community should be more honest and say "hey, whatever you imagine the results of this will be....that's a fantasy. The reality will never come close to the fantasy you imagine. You may well feel deeply disappointed with the results and on top of that....we can't undo the changes. You'll be stuck with whatever you get." They need to talk about the 2nd death trans men often refer to once they transition to a passable male.

2. If the success rate of treating gender dysphoria in children with medical transitioning is 60% (a number I suspect will drop once longer term studies are done) and gender dysphoria resolves itself 85% of the time in children by late puberty...the best thing you can do for a child with gender dysphoria is to not medically transition them. Get them whatever mental support you think they need but let it go until they're through puberty.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Sad thing is.. if someone does work with a tran.. regardless of beliefs.. most will probably just use their preferred pronouns in order to avoid the awkwardness, lol.

Maybe others are more cold? I happen to think there is something to trans where I will use their pronouns (within reason..I have little respect for the more out there ones thrown around) but even if I was staunchly on the side of the mental illness camp.. I don't think I can really go ahead and repeatedly missgender them. Which is a sad thought.. but realistically trans people will probably get their way. Even if there are no workplace consequences for misgendering them.

Curious if there is anyone here who's actually been put to the test in real life? Especially those who are more in the 'its a mental illness camp'.

My work has a lot of people in a lot of departments and they frequently switch offices, take promotions, switch agencies, etc. I'm not great at remembering names....frankly, I'm below average. Faces? Scary good at remembering faces. Details of conversations? I can remember details of what people said to me....even mundane details can stick out....

Names and to a lesser degree dates? Like sand through my fingers.

So the very idea that I would remember someone's preferred pronouns is almost ridiculous. It won't happen. Even if I cared and wanted to....nope. Not a chance. I know I'm not the only one either...there was a guy on CNN who "misgendered" Dylan Mulvaney recently on-air. Obviously he's aware of the policy, he's on-air talent. He may have had the preferred pronouns on the teleprompter in front of him. He simply defaulted to "he" because Dylan is a guy's name and that's actually a guy.

The dumbest part of this is the idea Dylan is somewhere watching this and lapsing into a deep depression. That's not happening. If anything, that narcissistic twerp is ecstatic at the extra attention and hoping that the clip goes viral.

 

[Bradskii]

As I know I am telling the truth and I know my own views and position on this I would like you to explain something. If the statement I was making was defending transwomen why would Paidiske be arguing against transwomen.

That's not in any way relevant to my post. Which noted that you said that the majority of Australians have a problem with transgender people. Nothing you have linked to says anything of the sort. And what I linked to said precisely the opposite.

 

[Bradskii]

I didn't ask that question. If I would have I would have said "Is David coming with us?"

You went on holiday with someone and you never had the need to refer to his son in the third person?

Have you seen Dave?
Yes, I saw Dave earlier. Dave was in the garden. I was going to ask Dave if he wants to go to the beach because I know Dave wanted to swim. Do you think Dave might want to? I'll see if I can find Dave.

Is that the way you talk with friends? Do you torture the English language so much just so that you can 'maintain your beliefs'? Were you honest with Dave's father about your beliefs? I think if you ended up talking like that then he might have asked what was wrong. Maybe if Dave was looking for some Christian support you could have directed him to this forum.

 

[Paidiske]

Except for the one who has to lie. They don't have to provide a safe work place for them. They can be stressed out by being forced to lie.

If treating someone else with basic respect and courtesy has such a massive impact on someone's mental health that the workplace is not safe for them, I'm not sure the employer can do anything to make it safe.

Unlike the trans person, whom the employer can protect from inappropriate treatment from others.

What safety. The trans person is perfectly safe. They are not going to be injured or killed you know just cause someone doesn't want to tell a lie.

This is worth looking at:

"One quarter (25%) of transgender participants who had high levels of discrimination, harassment and violence, and low levels of support from friends, family and community, had attempted suicide in the last year. However, only 3% of those who with low levels of discrimination, harassment, and violence and high levels of protective factors had attempted suicide. This means that those with lower risk factors and higher protective factors were more than eight times less likely to have attempted suicide."

 

[Ana the Ist]

If treating someone else with basic respect and courtesy has such a massive impact on someone's mental health that the workplace is not safe for them, I'm not sure the employer can do anything to make it safe.

Indeed, trans people should learn to respect others beliefs or quit the workplace. It's not that difficult to respect others and not demand they conform to your beliefs.

This is worth looking at:

"One quarter (25%) of transgender participants who had high levels of discrimination, harassment and violence, and low levels of support from friends, family and community, had attempted suicide in the last year. However, only 3% of those who with low levels of discrimination, harassment, and violence and high levels of protective factors had attempted suicide. This means that those with lower risk factors and higher protective factors were more than eight times less likely to have attempted suicide."

We're talking about...and you can quote me here...280 people who "attempted suicide". How many succeeded?

And is there any attempt to verify the self-reported survey this is based on? Did they find records of 280 trans people who went to the hospital? Did they find 580 actual examples of discrimination that were against trans people for being trans?

We're talking about a community that has a bad history of flat out lying to get whatever they want.

 

[rjs330]

You went on holiday with someone and you never had the need to refer to his son in the third person?

Have you seen Dave?
Yes, I saw Dave earlier. Dave was in the garden. I was going to ask Dave if he wants to go to the beach because I know Dave wanted to swim. Do you think Dave might want to? I'll see if I can find Dave.

Is that the way you talk with friends? Do you torture the English language so much just so that you can 'maintain your beliefs'? Were you honest with Dave's father about your beliefs? I think if you ended up talking like that then he might have asked what was wrong. Maybe if Dave was looking for some Christian support you could have directed him to this forum.

Yup to it all. You see my best friend and I have a great relationship. He doesn't demand that people bow down to others and violate their values. He knows we can all get along just fine without doing that. He's told David that the clothes David was going to wear were too queer. He also calls DAV d his son and tries to support him. But he doesn't run around and demand everyone else violate their values or face punishment.

Just as it should be. He's not a self centered authoritarian bully.

 

[rjs330]

If treating someone else with basic respect and courtesy has such a massive impact on someone's mental health that the workplace is not safe for them, I'm not sure the employer can do anything to make it safe.

Unless your the person who is forced to lie and or face serious consequences. Their mental health and safety is irrelevant.

They are not protected at all. But we'll protect the trans person by destroying someone else.