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When two worldviews collide.

Robban

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There is nothing in my signature. Are you "goading" me? I feel victimized.

At least you are alive, you feel, can a corpse have feelings?

Two bodies on a slab one is dead one is alive, which is which?

Is it not so the corpse is cold and hard.

I do not usually feel sorry for anyone,but I can feel anothers pain with my whole being

as if it was happening to me, now and then because it is not something I decide over.

Example,

the Rebbe was engaging with a young lady by letter,

He told her, "I feel your pain"

She replied, "How can you feel my pain?"

The Rebbe answered,

"When a child is teething the mother feels the pain too"

It is about soul connection.
 
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Ana the Ist

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But even WPATH don't promote rushing people into treatment! It's quite clear, even just reading the sections on children in that nifty 260-page document from them, that they are promoting careful assessment.

There are also recommendations such as that health care providers: "Are able to identify co-existing mental health or other psychosocial concerns and distinguish these from gender dysphoria, incongruence, and diversity. ...assessment is best provided by an HCP who possesses some expertise in mental health in order to identify conditions that can be mistaken for gender incongruence. Such conditions are rare and, when present, are often psychological in nature."

This is the organization that you're characterizing as both responsible and scientific.



They are neither. They are, at best, paraphyllic degenerates advocating for the advancement of their own perverse fantasies. They are not objective, or scientific, they are fanatical and highly biased. They sourced a website that hosts written child porn fiction as a source material. I don't know why anyone in the medical field would be dumb enough to not consider their recommendations highly suspicious....but I'd guess they probably have enough funding and support from pharmaceutical and biomedical companies to exert a lot of pressure on national healthcare organizations.

These people should stay far away from children. They shouldn't have any say in medical treatment or care. They try to bolster the extremely low quality research they provide with sheer quantity....and that's not how science works. A pile of garbage research doesn't suddenly become legitimate once it's stacked up high enough.

The overwhelmingly obvious evidence that they aren't being honest, let alone helpful or concerned about children....is the underlying lie of the need for these medical interventions. The reality is....

1. Children and teens under 18 have consistently throughout decades of records been the age group with the lowest suicide rate of any age group. There exists no evidence of an epidemic of trans youth suicide. Indeed, the very few instances of suicide in this group rarely have any consistent patterns by which we could find any underlying causes....if we were to consider it a problem at all.

2. The threat to trans lives is an old trope of trans activists that has a history of being either wildly exaggerated or completely fabricated. No record of trans people existed as part of homicide records. This did not stop activists from claiming, years ago, they were at a very abnormally high risk for being victims of murder. They produced their own statistics, by combing news articles, and when compared with the best scientific understanding of their population size....they were found to be amongst the least likely to be murdered per capita. Somewhere between white people and asians if I recall correctly.

3. Opportunity for advancement of their agenda was seen in the removal of homosexuality from the DSM and arguments fabricated about gender identity being similar to sexual orientation convinced others to support their removal from the DSM as well. This was successful, and I doubt those responsible had realized what they had done.

4. Now no longer a mental disorder....they could argue for their own treatment. Essentially a self diagnosis and treatment. Unfortunately, the science didn't support children who presented with gender dysphoria were innately trans, which prevented them from gaining cheap medical care through insurance (as these were now elective procedures) and likewise, a choice of lifestyle would not be grounds for safety from discrimination.

5. The answer was then simple....claim children were born trans, and as such, they were at risk for suicide in a world that innately rejected them. This allows for the condition to be considered immutable and worthy of protection from discrimination....and the assumption of suicidal behavior created a medical necessity that insurance companies could now spread the costs of care onto their entire clientele. No need for evidence....call any who disagree or hesitate to support a bigot.

Unfortunately, this didn't result in some great wave of children identifying as trans....so indoctrination into exploring this possibility and rewarding children who chose it with praise, attention, and even power over adults who refused to indulge this induced narcissistic fantasy was pushed first in higher academia (where it's unlikely to face any criticism) and now into preschool....where children can be indoctrinated and pushed towards a series of irreversible treatments.


I don't think this group cares about children now....nor have they ever....except as a means of advancing their own selfish and indulgent demands. The majority of demands relate to "passing" as being unable to block puberty or use the restrooms of their choice would inevitably give them away to romantic partners. Amongst these activists, you'll find a high number who believe that they do not need to reveal their trans identity to a partner prior to a sexual encounter....leaving a solid explanation for why feminists have solidly broken from them. Lesbians aren't into penises. The hard-core radical feminist is more often gay than in the past....and doesn't want to involve themselves in romantic relationships with trans women. Thus the "terf" split in feminism began. Unfortunately, they lack the gigantic financial backing of the medical community that will gladly abandon ethics for the opportunity of big money from a growing base of lifelong treatments. They have allowed the activists to essentially write in their own guidelines for care....which are absurdly far from any normal medical guidelines. We don't believe children can consent to the sort of purely elective and cosmetic treatment for children who aren't capable of understanding the long term implications of the choices they've been encouraged to make. This is political fodder for the left since it has moved to an identity politics approach (and one that places a premium on claims of victimhood). They lack no rights, nor do they deserve special considerations. They have rather callously pursued their own vain self interests, ruthlessly attacked any academics or professionals who disagree, and ostracize and humiliate detransitioners into silence or isolation.




I don't dislike trans people in the least. Trans activists however, are the equivalent of racial supremacists who are willing to victimize children while being blatantly dishonest about their motives and methods. I think the only reasonable reaction to deny every request or demand they make....and scorn their political allies for the foolishness of their support. They have no right to demand anything in education that benefits them but not the students. Indeed, most of what they want appears detrimental to children. Since they've began this campaign we've seen an extremely rare increase in childhood suicide....and they seem related to confused or mentally impaired children walking down the path of transgenderism and regretting it. They seem to believe they were at least partially at fault for giving their consent.
That's perhaps the most revealing position of the trans activists. We hear frequently that children can consent to unnecessary and permanent disfigurement before they can even comprehend what they've lost. They believe this so strongly, they blame the child who later realizes they made a catastrophic mistake. Yet when it comes to their own sexual encounters....they don't believe they are required to disclose the reality of their genitalia and anyone who rejects them as a result is branded a bigot (as if their consent was never a necessity for the encounter). Children are responsible for lifelong medical care by reason of consent given before puberty....they aren't obligated to inform potential sexual partners of their actual genitalia despite the elaborate process of passing as something they are not. I see this as not exactly tantamount to rape....but certainly sexual assault. I would bet money that if we were to only pass a law making such deception a fegglony sexual assault carry a minimum mandatory measured in years....we'd see their swift retreat of many of the political issues they've prioritized. I don't think they'll care about restrooms one bit after that.
 
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Paidiske

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This is the organization that you're characterizing as both responsible and scientific.
I'm not characterising them as anything. I was describing Australian standards of care which they happen to have endorsed. That they have endorsed them doesn't say anything about those standards of care, which ought to be examined and taken on their merits.

As for trans activists... whatever. I don't think the situation is going to be helped by Christian/conservative/traditional activists.
 
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Mountainmike

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In other words, it's the old "just do your own research" line trotted out when someone can't back up their own points.

I'm not going to do your homework for you. If you make claims and refuse to back them up, that's not my problem.

But Steve is not in one of those countries, he is in Australia, just like me.

It would have been just as easy for you to type that name into Google to get a link to back up your claim. Yet you even refuse to do that.

So what? I stand by my position that "don't kill people" has been around long before any religious belief that exists in the world today. That doesn't mean that no one is going to kill. There are always going to be people of all religious positions, both believers and non-believers, who will be willing to kill, and who will find some way to justify killing.

This claim is so vague it's meaningless.

So it's okay for Christians to kill atheists?

Or are you invoking the "No True Scotsman" fallacy here?

You don't undserstand what "survival of the fittest" actually means, do you?

It does NOT mean, "everybody start bashing everyone else, and whoever is still standing at the end deserves to get all the food/mates/other resourse."

It is talking about things on a GENETIC level. The genes that are the best at helping the individual they are in survive (the FITTEST genes) are the ones that will have the best chance of being passed on to the next generation of the population (and that would be the survival aspect of it).

You missed my point.

You claim it is the CHRISTIAN moral code.

My point is that while that particular moral code is held by many Christians, it is also held by many non-Christians as well, and that moral code was also around long before Christianity.

So It can't be justified to say that it is a moral code that was created by Christianity.
I was returning the threads to its roots - on world views , one part of which is moral code.

It seemed to have drifted to exclusively transgender issues .

I am sure you found references to arrests for prayer , therefore , Christianity being made illegal in a supposedly civilised advanced country. The UK . It is the thin end of the wedge. Christian views are increasingly silenced.

The Rwandan genocide is an important case For separating issues.
1/ there was no hint of a religious dimension. You cannot blame it there.

2/ it wasn’t a “ few bad people” deciding to kill , or a despotic dictator. In this case much of the population were involved.
So it is hard to justify the proposition of an “inherent moral code “ or one that predated christianity. This was recent. And clearly - much of the population didn’t have the code of “do not kill”.

The lovely rhetoric used to incite baby murder was “ the child of a snake, is also a snake”. Some moral code.


3/ Why did it happen?
It was certainly prophesied by “ our lady of kibeho” a few years before as a result of a fall away from God. There is a book of that name. by immaculee ilibagiza , a survivor against all odds.

The lady showing visions of what would , and did , happen a few years later said “ the world is on the edge of catastrophe” because of “ revolt against God”

This lady has a habit of correct prophesy: eg at Fatima, with the threat of the soviet Union , long before it was a “thing” , and even prophesying the event that would , and did herald world war II , if men continued offending God.

Later predictions Akita and elsewhere get worse “ fire from the sky” “ nations annihalated “ “ the living will envy the dead“ . Would you say it cannot happen with Putin? ( and a part of the population back him!)

The message attached was ” do not offend God any more , he is already much offended”
My fellow Christian’s May not accept the messenger,
I am sure they concur with that message .

A christian is not determined by what they say, it is whether what they do lines up with what they say.
The opposite of “ believe “ is “ disobey” . Faith is obedience to the code, not just verbal assent to it, or so we are told in scripture!
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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There is nothing in my signature. Are you "goading" me? I feel victimized.
"Rev. Adam McKay PhD"

Looks like two qualifications: Reverend usually indicates ordination of some kind and PhD usually indicates a legitimate graduate studies diploma.
Most of us would rather be anonymous at a forum such as this.
 
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stevevw

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It did not say that! It said it's sill high compared to the general population. Why do you keep repeating the same nonsense when you are linking to papers that tell you thatyou are wrong?


You obviously are linking to reports that you either don't understand, that you misinterpret or that you haven't read. This is like a food fight. Just keep throwing things at the wall and hope something sticks. Get something wrong? Throw some more. Get it from a useless source? Have at it again. Misinterpret the findings? Hey, just throw the same thing again. Misquote something? Never mind, here's some more links, some more papers.
What are you talking about I only linked two papers about poor outcomes post Transition and they were from reputable sourses. Tell is you claim the paper said "it's sill high compared to the general population" the why deid it say specifically that "suicide increased compared to the control group". Not stayed the same or was still high or reduced but increased. In neede you to explain what increased mean.

The reason I say this is that the rate the paper I linked says suicide increased by 19.1 times higher than the control group. Now I know Trans suicide is high but are we to believe that suicide before Transitioning surgery is more than around 20%. I don't think so. In fact to measure like for like the suicide rate for Trans people in Scandinavian nations is around 3 to 4 times the general population not 20 times.

Between 2013 and 2017, the suicide risk in Dutch referred transgender people (40 per 100 000 person years) showed to be three to four times higher than the general Dutch population (11 per 100 000 person years) (28).

But I will drop the claim that suicide increases after surgery in the long term to move things along. I will restate that there is not enough evidence either way which still casts doubt on the claim that surgery is beneificial. If as you have said that suicide stays the same after surgery then that would mean the current Trans Affirmation an Transition Model is unfounded and should not be pushed.
The pdf to which you linked - and I have no idea why you so did because there's nothing in there that supports anything you've tried to complain about, will explain a lot about what is considered good practice. It is chock full of examples. I have no idea where you got the idea to post it. But why not read it. It's only 80+ pages long. I did. Tell me something in it with which you disagree. After all, it's your evidence. And quote the page number please. We'll do this step by step. Using your links. I'll wait here while you read it.
I would if I knew which article it was because that is not the paper I linke to show that suicide may increase after surgery. The paper I was referring to was this one and its certainly not 80 pages long.
 
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stevevw

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I was returning the threads to its roots - on world views , one part of which is moral code.
Thankyou, I would like that. I am interested not in the individual examples as we can all agree that there is difference in the worldview about these examples like what gender, sex, life, relationships, families, society, the world, the universe, nature, reality and spirituality represent. Secular Humanists have a different worldview to Christians and this is expressed in the different beliefs about the examples mentioned and therefore how we go about ordering society which basically is related to morality.

That different worldview is polarizing and coming into conflict more and more as society moves away from its Christian and Traditional roots. This is evidenced by the rapid increase in Woke ideology or rreligion which includes a number of beliefs like Trans and Gender ideology, Critcal Race Theory, Cultural Marxism, Humanism, Liberalism, Atheism and materialism but not always, as witnessed by the growing ideology in some churches. In saying that some Athiests support these Traditional and Christian Truths because they are really commonsense and rational.

I know its more complex but I think more broadly its a difference in 2 Worldviews and fundemental assumptions and beliefs about how the world is, what nature and reality represent, one that is God created and designed for a purpose and one that is human created where humans can be the gods of themselves, nature, reality. This relates to how humans try to create or recreate nature, remodeling morality, humans and nature into human concepts rather than in Gods hands or a transcendent being beyond human conventions.

This has been a gradual sometimes concerted effort in socially engineering society and I think its coming to fruition in the last 20 odd years when secular society in riding itself of God completely and now even hating religion but especially Christianity as seen by the rise in attacks on Christians and their beliefs. Which includes Traditionalists and to some extent Conservatives. That is why I sort of grouped Christians/Traditionalists/Conservatives with Athiest/Secular/Progressives.
 
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Bradskii

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I would if I knew which article it was because that is not the paper I linke to show that suicide may increase after surgery. The paper I was referring to was this one and its certainly not 80 pages long.

You linked to it. How can you not know which one? Are you simply cutting and pasting from somewhere else? It's this one, from your own post:

Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population.

Firstly, that paper says no such thing about suicide. But this is a paper you want to use to bolster your argument? You want to use it as evidence? My guess is that you haven't even read it. It's only 80+ pages. I've read it so you read it as well and then be specific about that with which you disagree. Pages numbers please.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Example,

the Rebbe was engaging with a young lady by letter,

He told her, "I feel your pain"

She replied, "How can you feel my pain?"

The Rebbe answered,

"When a child is teething the mother feels the pain too"

It is about soul connection.

That's just what we call "empathy".
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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I know its more complex but I think more broadly its a difference in 2 Worldviews and fundemental assumptions and beliefs about how the world is, what nature and reality represent, one that is God created and designed for a purpose and one that is human created where humans can be the gods of themselves, nature, reality. This relates to how humans try to create or recreate nature, remodeling morality, humans and nature into human concepts rather than in Gods hands or a transcendent being beyond human conventions.
Let me add that a third worldview which tries to reconcile these two. In that world view there is indeed God who created and designed for a purpose. But part of that purpose is human growth and spiritual development. And that requires human empowerment, free will, self determination, much like a child needs to learn to make his or her own decisions and choices, choosing the life that is right for him or her rather than the parents' plan.

When a child is born with a cleft palate or any other physical abnormality, we often have no problem with surgical correction. we take it upon ourselves to change the way God created that child.
 
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rjs330

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This thread is about world views. One view is about truth and reality colliding with an idea that pursues the changing of language, thought and reality.
Rather than just considering that transgenderism is a thought it belief system, an idea it pursues the pushing of that idea or even forcing that idea upon everyone else. That's the collision. It's no different than a religion forcing others to believe their idea and alter society to fit and proclaim that idea as truth. That's the collision.
If transgenderism simply said this is what I believe and left it at that there would be few problems with it. But proclaiming it as TRUTH, then we are required as a society to follow and believe it also. That's why the pronouns are forced upon us, men competing against women are forced upon us, men undressing in women's locker rooms are forced upon us as well as men using women's bathrooms. That's why parents lose their parental rights over it. That's why an entire society is told you must alter the ways things have been done and you must spend billions and billions of dollars to alter locker rooms and bathrooms to accommodate an idea that actually has no scientific evidence that it is true. An idea that is held by less than 1% of the population historically. The suspension of truth to a belief.

If a religious group were to do this over their beliefs it would be a real problem as is evidenced already. Yet the same people that would oppose religion from doing this are the same people who support transgenderism and all it believes.

It's very interesting to see. And difficult to deal with for the unbelievers (in transgenderism).
 
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rjs330

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Then here's an idea. You keep promoting the idea that countries like Sweden and Finland have come to different conclusions. So here's the Finnish recommendation. https://palveluvalikoima.fi/documen...f92/Summary_non-binary_en.pdf?t=1592318035000

I doubt that you've read it - you haven't quoted any of it but just seem keen to keep mentioning it because you think that they do things better than do the Endocrine Society, WPATH and the AAP. So I guess that you're happy with it. Why else keep on about it?

Which is now the question. If a couple of Scaninavian countries have it right, as far as you are concerned, then shall we use the Finnish one for example as a basis for what we should be doing?
The Finnish recommendation is for adults not kids. And even in it's recommendation it says this.

Research data on the treatment of dysphoria due to gender identity conflicts is limited. COHERE considers that, moving forward, multi-professional clinics specialising in the diagnostics and treatment of gender identity conflicts at HUS and TAYS should collect extensive information on the diagnostic process and the effects of different treatment methods on mental wellbeing, social and professional capacity, and quality of life. There is also a need for more information on the disadvantages of procedures and on people who regret them.

Note it's limited. So essentially they are experimenting in adults and not kids. If adults agree to be part of the experimentation process then that's on them. I've always said that.

I may disagree with it. But it is what it is. At least the Finns are also pushing for extensive psychotherapy.

The person has a significant and prolonged gender conflict that causes reliably identifiable and harmful suffering in everyday situations, the person has undergone diagnostics and treatment of possible concomitant psychiatric symptoms and their continuation during and after treatment, if necessary, has been ensured, and the person has been confirmed to have the psychological conditions and sufficient functional capacity for a demanding evaluation.

These are research centers doing research. They are not experimenting on kids.
 
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ralliann

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Let me add that a third worldview which tries to reconcile these two. In that world view there is indeed God who created and designed for a purpose. But part of that purpose is human growth and spiritual development. And that requires human empowerment, free will, self determination, much like a child needs to learn to make his or her own decisions and choices, choosing the life that is right for him or her rather than the parents' plan.

When a child is born with a cleft palate or any other physical abnormality, we often have no problem with surgical correction. we take it upon ourselves to change the way God created that child.
The third view as described is still yet another religious view. So, let's just not infringe each other.
 
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Robban

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This thread is about world views. One view is about truth and reality colliding with an idea that pursues the changing of language, thought and reality.
Rather than just considering that transgenderism is a thought it belief system, an idea it pursues the pushing of that idea or even forcing that idea upon everyone else. That's the collision. It's no different than a religion forcing others to believe their idea and alter society to fit and proclaim that idea as truth. That's the collision.
If transgenderism simply said this is what I believe and left it at that there would be few problems with it. But proclaiming it as TRUTH, then we are required as a society to follow and believe it also. That's why the pronouns are forced upon us, men competing against women are forced upon us, men undressing in women's locker rooms are forced upon us as well as men using women's bathrooms. That's why parents lose their parental rights over it. That's why an entire society is told you must alter the ways things have been done and you must spend billions and billions of dollars to alter locker rooms and bathrooms to accommodate an idea that actually has no scientific evidence that it is true. An idea that is held by less than 1% of the population historically. The suspension of truth to a belief.

If a religious group were to do this over their beliefs it would be a real problem as is evidenced already. Yet the same people that would oppose religion from doing this are the same people who support transgenderism and all it believes.

It's very interesting to see. And difficult to deal with for the unbelievers (in transgenderism).

There is too much focus on the body, the body which is.

a vehicle for the soul.

Thinking it is caring and loving to concentrate only on the body while neglecting the soul is a mistake.

The less than 1% will poison the well by adding a few drops of poison.

Therefore each and everyone should guard their soul.
 
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Bradskii

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I may disagree with it. But it is what it is.
Exactly. And this is par for the course.

How should we approach this problem? Well, you've got some expert opinion. And here it is. But what? You disagree with it? You are linking to medical experts with whom you disagree?

Of course you are. The only people you can legitimately quote are medical experts. Not advocacy groups or charlatans and secretarial workers. And when you do, when asked if you agree with them you say no. How crazy is that.

And if you dig a little deeper then we have recommendations for children that say great care must be taken but that if there is a requirement then any child can be assessed for the need to supress puberty. It's a pdf so i can't paste the text, but you'll find it here:

Finnish_Guidelines_2020_Minors_Unofficial Translation_0.pdf

Would anyone at all disagree that extra care should be taken? No. Has anyone said that cases should be addressed on an individual basis? Yes. Many of us. A d this is from people who are medical experts and you want to put them forward as an example of what we should do.

But...You don't agree with them.

How farcical is that?
 
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rjs330

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For example (emphasis mine): "Puberty blockers, also called hormone blockers, help delay unwanted physical changes that don’t match someone’s gender identity. Delaying these changes can be an important step in a young person’s transition. It can also give your child more time to explore their options before deciding whether or how to transition."
You are ignoring facts. There is no research that supports this claim. It is NOT an important step. There is no evidence that it is an important step. This is a false claim made by the trans activists. And to continue to perpetuate this lie makes you a co-conspirator in something someone in your position shouldn't be.
 
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Paidiske

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You are ignoring facts.
I give you information from a children's hospital about the purposes of a particular treatment, and I'm ignoring facts?

This thread isn't about a collision of worldviews. It's about what happens when a group of people engage in mass denial of reality.
And to continue to perpetuate this lie makes you a co-conspirator in something someone in your position shouldn't be.
Thank heavens there are people in my position, and similar positions, who realise that we're not here to run everybody else's lives.
 
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rjs330

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But even WPATH don't promote rushing people into treatment! It's quite clear, even just reading the sections on children in that nifty 260-page document from them, that they are promoting careful assessment.
No they are not. The SOC states that therapy is NOT required. How on earth can you say that careful assessment is being done when it's only considered beneficial and not required?

Secondly they use the affirmation model of therapy in that the client is assumed to be correct and any therapy is direct d towards that end. The clinicians are to take on an advocacy role for the person rather than a therapeutic role. In others words they are to accept and affirm the child is trans and advocate for them rather than take on a therapeutic stance of finding out what's really going on with the person.
Furthermore Wpath has removed age restrictions on care. They no longer are dealing with age of consent for ANY treatment which includes surgeries. Also the pathway of affirmation and transgendering kids includes that parental barriers to transgendering can be removed.

There is NO pathway in any of the guidelines that allows for a child to not be transgendered if they make the claim they are. It is all geared toward affirming and advocating for the child to be transgendered up to and including surgery and removing any barriers to that end.

Why it even addresses Autism as not being a barrier.

Yes they do rush people through treatment with the end goal of transgendering any child that makes the claim. If you know anything about mental therapy it is a very long process. And WPATH does not require it. And even when therapy is done it's geared once again to affirm the child AS trans and advocate for the child AS trans. It is not to determine if the child IS trans.

You really need to listen to the clinicians I linked to. They have an entire channel on this stuff. They are actually clinicians who are therapists in this area. Listening to what they have to say about the affirmative care model is eye opening.
 
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rjs330

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I give you information from a children's hospital about the purposes of a particular treatment, and I'm ignoring facts?

This thread isn't about a collision of worldviews. It's about what happens when a group of people engage in mass denial of reality.

Thank heavens there are people in my position, and similar positions, who realise that we're not here to run everybody else's lives.
The information you provided is not based on facts. It's based on an opinion. There are NO FACTS that support the statement made. There are no RCTS that indicate that this is true. There is no scientific evidence for the claim. Yes you ARE ignoring facts. You are just spouting claims made that are not based upon the scientific data. There are no RCTs involved.

And denial of reality? Who's in denial of reality when claiming boys can be girls?

Thank heaven there are people out there who actually care about what is being done to these kids. And thank heaven that there are countries who are recognizing this and putting an end to it.
 
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