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When two worldviews collide.

o_mlly

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... the evolutionary process wouldn't make any determination as to which brother was shark bait because those selfish genes are identical in each of them. ... The atheist would be more likely to understand that ... so he would realise that from an evolutionary perspective, it wouldn't matter. So he'd sacrifice himself out of sibling love. And the genes survive.
Nope. Your conclusion does not follow your logic. Your calculus says that the atheist would just as likely sacrifice his Christain brother. In your morality, apparently there is one set of rules for "me and mine" (how did you put it ... your limited concentric circles of those you care about) and another for those you don't care about, ie., everybody else.

Christian morality proscribes murder -- either of self or another. So, the atheist brother is safe from an offensive attack by his Christain brother.
 
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rjs330

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The person who was harmed. Assuming that she wasn't a human sacrifice. Then I guess we ask her family.
I am questioning the validity of this. First of all you say "we" get to decide. Then you say the individual gets to decide. I don't think you really believe that. That would lead to chaos as we all have differing views of harm and what harms us as an individual. There is no way to have an orderly culture if individuals get to decide what harm is just for themselves. There have been cultures where the individual would have absolutely agreed that killing them was a good thing and would have been supported in doing so by the family.

So we are back to who exactly determines what is right and wrong? In some cultures it's okay to kill the widow. Others it's okay to cut off a girls [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]. Other cultures have supported child sacrifice or cannibalism. And in many everyone agreed it was okay. So again I ask who are you to tell them or anyone today what is right and wrong?
 
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rjs330

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Harm was obviously done. If you restrict someone's freedom then that's harmful. If you sacrifice someone then...let me think...yeah, that's harmful as well. If you can't see that, then I'm not sure it's worth you continuing the discussion.

But go with cannibalism. That's an interesting one. Make an argument with that. Let's see how it goes. Then I'll give you another tricky one.
Once again YOU are proclaiming yourself as the arbiter of right and wrong and harm. My argument is not about what is right and wrong it is about you making that decision for others. What has made you the arbiter of right, wrong and harm? You still haven't answered the question. What right do you have to tell any culture they should or should not do something? Here is an example.

18-Year-Old Muslim Girl Executed by Family in “Honor Killing”

Now you and I would agree this is abhorrent and should not happen. And that the punishment for such an act should be severe. However under your conditions of morality being subjective and "we" decide or the individual decides it's apparent that the "we" of this culture doesn't seem to think it's a big deal. So what gives you the right to disagree with them? Who are you to tell them they are wrong?
 
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JeffP

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In discussing some of the moral issues facing society such as gender, sex, race, Rights, identity politics ect relating to how we as a society should structure ourselves I have found that a polarisation is happening between two broad worldviews. On the one side the Left which I think is more likely to be athiest or more pluralistic about belief and on the other is the Right which are more conservative and traditional and more likely to be Christain. Though I think there is degrees of variance where some will also be open to opposing views to some degree.

But it seems things have become more polarised is recent times deue to society moving away from a Christain worldview to a secular one. In the past there was more middle ground and basically people I think were more traditional had belief and progressives were seen as out of step. I think today the Left has gained a lot of ground mainly due to a reaction to percieved past injustices by traditionalist or Christains and being more open to alternative ideas.

In the past Western societies were based on Christain values but in the last few decades God and Christainity has been rejected and in its place the State has become the arbitor of societal morals and infringed more on peoples private lives. Of course a lot has happened in that time with social media which I think has had a profound impact on thinking undermining truth and has given individuals and groups much power to push their views and influence governments and society.

But the result of all this is that there is a growing division between the Christian Worldview and the Secular Worldview to the point that they clash even violently like people want to destroy Christains aned opposing views and it seems the State is actively siding with the a secular position with the help of certain lobbyist. They have been actively dismantaling Christainity and taking God completely out of the picture in our institutions and public life generally, I should say its not always just Christains but also traditionalist and others who believe in the Truths that the West was built upon such as Enlightement and Democracy. Many on the Left also seem to support some sort of Marxism so this polarisation seems to be political and religious.

I guess our present situation is also the result of Postmodernism the idea of tearing down the old truths and archetypes of the West and society has become more individualistic and relative. Its a complex combination of factors but the thing that stands out for me is that there seems to be a showdown brewing between Christain and traditionalist and the Secularist and the Left and I think the Left is winning at the moment. I can see this continuing where Christainity is pushed to the fringes.

So we are at a point for the first time in a long time in our history where societies efforts to rid themselves of God and Christainity will see secularist and non believers outnumbering Christains and completely rejecting God from society.

But is this new World completely devoid of belief or is society replacing God and Christainity with some new religion, a secular religion which has been able to grow disguised as something else like some new utopia that promises to do away with injustice and inequality and bring people true happiness. I think so as it seems that peoples reaction to Christainity and God today isn't just about a new way but is tied to their identity and debates are often full of feelings even to the point of wanting to destroy others who disagree,

So I think this is a fight for Truth and there can only be one Truth. But today truth has lost all meaning and personal truth has become the only truth. But I think the Truth as in the one Truth we all know is real will shine through in the end, but its going to be a fight in the meantime where many false ideas will seem to win out and may fool many.
Your perspective raises significant points about the perceived shift from a historically Christian-centric societal model towards a more secular one, identifying a palpable division between the adherents of these two broad worldviews. However, I'd like to introduce a contrasting viewpoint that insinuates this division might not originate organically among the populace but could be engineered, to an extent, by governmental, corporate, and media entities.

It’s worthy to ponder if the polarization you described is less a direct outcome of people’s shifting beliefs and more strategically induced. Could it be that governments, corporations, and media entities (or even religious organizations) cultivate and utilize these divisions to enhance their own agendas, thereby instigating an environment of conflict to manipulate public actions and opinions? This perspective proposes that the divide between a secular and Christian worldview, while seemingly grassroots, may be fed and exaggerated by narratives that are carefully crafted and propagated by those in power to serve specific objectives - be they to secure votes, boost consumerism, or hike ratings.

Analyzing the role of media, we observe a potential pattern where narratives are often simplified and dramatized, framing issues in black-and-white or right-and-wrong dichotomies. The complex nuances of topics like gender, sex, race, and identity politics often get overshadowed by more sensational, and consequently, divisive narratives. This simplification could potentially amplify extant divisions, fostering an environment that morphs organic, diverse opinions into more rigid, polarized camps.

Corporations, too, may benefit from these divisions, adopting stances that align with one perspective or the other to drive their sales through perceived allegiance to a particular worldview. By associating their brands with certain moral or political ideologies, they effectively mobilize a segment of consumers, who, feeling validated by the corporation’s stance, become loyal customers.

Governments and politicians might also exploit these divisions, adopting policies or rhetoric that appeal to one demographic to secure votes and support. This often involves embracing a particular worldview while opposing another, despite the risk of deepening societal divisions. In doing so, genuine governance and policy-making that consider the nuanced needs and beliefs of all citizens may be compromised for political gain.

In examining this viewpoint, it’s pertinent to query whether the perceived increasing rejection of Christianity and embracement of secularism is a spontaneous societal shift or if it’s partly a byproduct of orchestrated narratives that serve specific purposes. It poses a vital question: Are we, as a society, autonomously gravitating towards certain worldviews, or are we being nudged and sometimes shoved by entities that stand to gain from our division and polarization?

It’s imperative to consider that Truth, as you rightfully deemed paramount, might be obscured by orchestrated narratives that aim not to enlighten, but to divide, manipulate, and control. The discernment of truth might then require navigating beyond the ostensible conflicts and examining if our beliefs and divisions are genuinely ours or are reactions to strategically placed triggers embedded within societal narratives. In this context, the real ‘fight for Truth’ might involve dissecting and challenging the divisive narratives being propagated, ensuring that our worldviews are authentically ours and not surreptitiously implanted by external entities.
 
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Bradskii

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Nope. Your conclusion does not follow your logic. Your calculus says that the atheist would just as likely sacrifice his Christain brother. In your morality, apparently there is one set of rules for "me and mine" (how did you put it ... your limited concentric circles of those you care about) and another for those you don't care about, ie., everybody else.
You are right. You are the center of that circle. But if you have an identical twin, then you are both in the centre. And hey, secular morality proscribes murder as well. It's harmful (well duh) and by definition unjustified.

Quite the coincidence. And I'm sorry about your fall.
 
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Bradskii

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I am questioning the validity of this. First of all you say "we" get to decide. Then you say the individual gets to decide. I don't think you really believe that. That would lead to chaos as we all have differing views of harm and what harms us as an individual. There is no way to have an orderly culture if individuals get to decide what harm is just for themselves. There have been cultures where the individual would have absolutely agreed that killing them was a good thing and would have been supported in doing so by the family.
It seems that some of you can't grasp this concept. If somebody says 'hey, let's kill that guy', it doesn't matter who said it, who was being killed, when it was said, where it was said and what culture they lived it. It would obviously cause harm to the guy being killed (I can't believe I actually had to write that sentence). There is then a question of morals. As in, was it justified.

Deciding if it's justified is the hard part. Agreeing that harm has been done is the easy bit.

I can ask you the same question as I asked @stevevw (yet to receive a response): If no harm has been done do you think that any decisions on morality should, or even can be made?
 
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JeffP

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It's been explained in great detail in a number of posts since you joined in.

What another weird question. I guess you want to bring evolution into it and say 'Hey, wouldn't your 'evolutionary morality' (and if you actually said it you'd definitely do the air quotes) dictate that it would be better to save one's genes to pass on to future generations?'

Well...no, in the first instance because as I have repeatedly said (in posts that you must have read), our genetic makeup doesn't dictate what we do. There are considerations other than our personal tendencies to survive. I'm sure I don't have to list them. And even if you were correct - which you are not, then the evolutionary process wouldn't make any determination as to which brother was shark bait because those selfish genes are identical in each of them.

The atheist would be more likely to understand that (If we use your knowledge of evolution as the example of the Christian), so he would realise that from an evolutionary perspective, it wouldn't matter. So he'd sacrifice himself out of sibling love. And the genes survive.

I said you didn't understand it...
"he'd sacrifice himself" Honestly wasn't expecting that and I'm sure neither was the person that posed the question. What a great answer.
 
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Bradskii

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Once again YOU are proclaiming yourself as the arbiter of right and wrong and harm. My argument is not about what is right and wrong it is about you making that decision for others. What has made you the arbiter of right, wrong and harm? You still haven't answered the question. What right do you have to tell any culture they should or should not do something? Here is an example.

18-Year-Old Muslim Girl Executed by Family in “Honor Killing”

Now you and I would agree this is abhorrent and should not happen. And that the punishment for such an act should be severe. However under your conditions of morality being subjective and "we" decide or the individual decides it's apparent that the "we" of this culture doesn't seem to think it's a big deal. So what gives you the right to disagree with them? Who are you to tell them they are wrong?
In this case, we determine first off if harm has been done. Obviously it has. Then we ask if was justified. And in this case it wouldn't be hard for either of us to put forward an argument that it wasn't. I'm sure that the poor girl's family would argue that it was. Our arguments, the ones that you and I put forward would be better than theirs. And we agree on that as we both agree that the act was abhorrent.

So I'm not sure what point you are making. You ask why is it that we should have the right to decide what's right or wrong for others and then you say that we can do that anyway.

Did you decide that it was abhorrent? Yeah, me too. So it's subjective because we have individually made that decision based on reasonable arguments which we can present. Just because we believe and agree that it's the right decision doesn't then make it objective.
 
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Bradskii

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Your perspective raises significant points about the perceived shift from a historically Christian-centric societal model towards a more secular one, identifying a palpable division between the adherents of these two broad worldviews. However, I'd like to introduce a contrasting viewpoint that insinuates this division might not originate organically among the populace but could be engineered, to an extent, by governmental, corporate, and media entities.

It’s worthy to ponder if the polarization you described is less a direct outcome of people’s shifting beliefs and more strategically induced. Could it be that governments, corporations, and media entities (or even religious organizations) cultivate and utilize these divisions to enhance their own agendas, thereby instigating an environment of conflict to manipulate public actions and opinions? This perspective proposes that the divide between a secular and Christian worldview, while seemingly grassroots, may be fed and exaggerated by narratives that are carefully crafted and propagated by those in power to serve specific objectives - be they to secure votes, boost consumerism, or hike ratings.

Analyzing the role of media, we observe a potential pattern where narratives are often simplified and dramatized, framing issues in black-and-white or right-and-wrong dichotomies. The complex nuances of topics like gender, sex, race, and identity politics often get overshadowed by more sensational, and consequently, divisive narratives. This simplification could potentially amplify extant divisions, fostering an environment that morphs organic, diverse opinions into more rigid, polarized camps.

Corporations, too, may benefit from these divisions, adopting stances that align with one perspective or the other to drive their sales through perceived allegiance to a particular worldview. By associating their brands with certain moral or political ideologies, they effectively mobilize a segment of consumers, who, feeling validated by the corporation’s stance, become loyal customers.

Governments and politicians might also exploit these divisions, adopting policies or rhetoric that appeal to one demographic to secure votes and support. This often involves embracing a particular worldview while opposing another, despite the risk of deepening societal divisions. In doing so, genuine governance and policy-making that consider the nuanced needs and beliefs of all citizens may be compromised for political gain.

In examining this viewpoint, it’s pertinent to query whether the perceived increasing rejection of Christianity and embracement of secularism is a spontaneous societal shift or if it’s partly a byproduct of orchestrated narratives that serve specific purposes. It poses a vital question: Are we, as a society, autonomously gravitating towards certain worldviews, or are we being nudged and sometimes shoved by entities that stand to gain from our division and polarization?

It’s imperative to consider that Truth, as you rightfully deemed paramount, might be obscured by orchestrated narratives that aim not to enlighten, but to divide, manipulate, and control. The discernment of truth might then require navigating beyond the ostensible conflicts and examining if our beliefs and divisions are genuinely ours or are reactions to strategically placed triggers embedded within societal narratives. In this context, the real ‘fight for Truth’ might involve dissecting and challenging the divisive narratives being propagated, ensuring that our worldviews are authentically ours and not surreptitiously implanted by external entities.
Are you by any chance related in some way to Sir Humphrey Appleby?
 
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Bradskii

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"he'd sacrifice himself" Honestly wasn't expecting that and I'm sure neither was the person that posed the question. What a great answer.
It's an evolutionary zero sum game.
 
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JeffP

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Are you by any chance related in some way to Sir Humphrey Appleby?
Ah, it has come to pass that my humble American self, previously unacquainted with such uniquely British cultural referents, finds oneself most unexpectedly and delightfully enlightened through the seemingly infinite visual repository that is YouTube.

My countenance, now steadfastly affixed with an unrestrained display of mirth and joviality, unequivocally communicates a genuine appreciation for the sartorial wit and bureaucratic quagmires emblematically portrayed by the inimitable Sir Humphrey Appleby.

Upon reflexive contemplation, it strikes me that perhaps, in written communicative endeavors, I may unintentionally emanate a semblance of the distinguished Sir’s proclivity for the verbose and the intricate.

My most sincere gratitude is extended for this serendipitous introduction, and, I hypothesize with a notable degree of certainty, that the ensuing weekend shall bear witness to an unrestrained exploration and perhaps a mild descent into the enchanting, and most certainly, entertaining abyss of Sir Humphrey Appleby’s world.

Engaging in such a splendid expedition through the myriad complexities and subtle satirical nuances of governmental bureaucracy, as represented in this venerable televisual series, promises a time of merriment and sagacious enlightenment. Thus, I shall remain, both metaphorically and literally, deeply enmeshed within the humorous, albeit sophisticated, rabbit hole of Sir Humphrey’s bureaucratic domain.

In other words, being an American, I had to Google who that was and I'm going to be checking it out on YouTube all this weekend! ;)
 
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Bradskii

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Ah, it has come to pass that my humble American self, previously unacquainted with such uniquely British cultural referents, finds oneself most unexpectedly and delightfully enlightened through the seemingly infinite visual repository that is YouTube.

My countenance, now steadfastly affixed with an unrestrained display of mirth and joviality, unequivocally communicates a genuine appreciation for the sartorial wit and bureaucratic quagmires emblematically portrayed by the inimitable Sir Humphrey Appleby.

Upon reflexive contemplation, it strikes me that perhaps, in written communicative endeavors, I may unintentionally emanate a semblance of the distinguished Sir’s proclivity for the verbose and the intricate.

My most sincere gratitude is extended for this serendipitous introduction, and, I hypothesize with a notable degree of certainty, that the ensuing weekend shall bear witness to an unrestrained exploration and perhaps a mild descent into the enchanting, and most certainly, entertaining abyss of Sir Humphrey Appleby’s world.

Engaging in such a splendid expedition through the myriad complexities and subtle satirical nuances of governmental bureaucracy, as represented in this venerable televisual series, promises a time of merriment and sagacious enlightenment. Thus, I shall remain, both metaphorically and literally, deeply enmeshed within the humorous, albeit sophisticated, rabbit hole of Sir Humphrey’s bureaucratic domain.

In other words, being an American, I had to Google who that was and I'm going to be checking it out on YouTube all this weekend! ;)
Thanks for taking it in the spirit in which it was given.
 
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rjs330

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seems that some of you can't grasp this concept. If somebody says 'hey, let's kill that guy', it doesn't matter who said it, who was being killed, when it was said, where it was said and what culture they lived it. It would obviously cause harm to the guy being killed (I can't believe I actually had to write that sentence). There is then a question of morals. As in, was it justified.
There you go again making a claim that you know what harm is for an entire culture. Obvious to you maybe, but not so obvious to them. Your sentence is really no different than what you've been saying. You just re-worded it. Through in another example.

But in the end you are still doing the same thing. YOU are deciding what is moral and what is not for a culture. I still ask the same question which you seem to be struggling to answer. What makes YOU the person to decide what is moral and right for a culture?
Deciding if it's justified is the hard part. Agreeing that harm has been done is the easy bit.
Apparently agreeing that harm has been done ISN'T the easy part. It's easy for you but others have disagreed. Other cultures disagree. What makes you right and them wrong?
I can ask you the same question as I asked @stevevw (yet to receive a response): If no harm has been done do you think that any decisions on morality should, or even can be made?
Who decides if harm has been done?
 
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rjs330

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In this case, we determine first off if harm has been done. Obviously it has.
Has it? Why do you get to decide if harm has been done?
And in this case it wouldn't be hard for either of us to put forward an argument that it wasn't. I'm sure that the poor girl's family would argue that it was. Our arguments, the ones that you and I put forward would be better than theirs. And we agree on that as we both agree that the act was abhorrent.
Would our arguments be better though. Our arguments are only our opinion. Just cause we agree doesn't mean we are correct. In our minds our arguments would be better. In their minds theirs would be. So who is right? Who is correct?
Did you decide that it was abhorrent? Yeah, me too. So it's subjective because we have individually made that decision based on reasonable arguments which we can present. Just because we believe and agree that it's the right decision doesn't then make it objective.
Of course it's not objective. It's our subjective opinion. Just like theirs is subjective. You see you believe your argument is the most reasonable. But just cause you believe so doesn't make it so. It's only your opinion good for you and no one else. Subjective opinion is only good for you. You have no right to foist that on someone else.
 
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Bradskii

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Who decides if harm has been done?
If it's not obvious that harm has been done then I can't help you. I really can't. I've taken morality back to its very bedrock. Has harm been done. If it hasn't, then there is no question regarding morality. If there is harm, then there's something to be discussed. But you seem to have difficulty in even determing harm.

I'm at a loss...
 
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Bradskii

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Has it? Why do you get to decide if harm has been done?
She was shot for heaven's sake...
Would our arguments be better though. Our arguments are only our opinion. Just cause we agree doesn't mean we are correct. In our minds our arguments would be better. In their minds theirs would be. So who is right? Who is correct?

Of course it's not objective. It's our subjective opinion. Just like theirs is subjective. You see you believe your argument is the most reasonable. But just cause you believe so doesn't make it so. It's only your opinion good for you and no one else. Subjective opinion is only good for you. You have no right to foist that on someone else.
But you believe your opinion is right. I agree with with you. Harm has been done. And we don't think it was justified. Where is the problem in those 4 sentences?
 
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o_mlly

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You are the center of that circle. But if you have an identical twin, then you are both in the centre. And hey, secular morality proscribes murder as well. It's harmful (well duh) and by definition unjustified.
Nope. Identical twins are not genetically identical. So, the center of your circle has a population of just one -- you. When those "selfish genes" tossed your brother over did you offer him a lament, you know like ... "I just can't help myself -- those cruel genes made me do it."

Apparently, you believe "secular" and "subjective" are synonyms. They're not. Your "secular moral system" is just well, subjective morality. Your attempt to give it some semblance of an objective system, rationally determined, failed.
 
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stevevw

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It seems that some of you can't grasp this concept. If somebody says 'hey, let's kill that guy', it doesn't matter who said it, who was being killed, when it was said, where it was said and what culture they lived it. It would obviously cause harm to the guy being killed (I can't believe I actually had to write that sentence). There is then a question of morals. As in, was it justified.

Deciding if it's justified is the hard part. Agreeing that harm has been done is the easy bit.

I can ask you the same question as I asked @stevevw (yet to receive a response): If no harm has been done do you think that any decisions on morality should, or even can be made?
I think your making some false analogies here. I notice you use obvious examples like killing or abusing someone which we all know is causing harm. The justification for that harm is the moral destinction.

But many situations involve behaviour where the harm is not immediately apparent. One side doesn't even consider any harm is being done and yet the other side does.

So you can't make any moral destinctions or justifications about a harm that is not even being recognised. By the same token this would also imply that not recognising harm may also mean making out something is harmful when its not.

I mean look at the Woke idea of unconscious racism. All whites are racist whether they know it or not. Thats an idea based on CRT and CRT underpins much of academia and DEI policy. We have some ideologues claiming a special kind of moral knowledge and truth that the majority don't have and we must all conform.
 
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rjs330

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If it's not obvious that harm has been done then I can't help you. I really can't. I've taken morality back to its very bedrock. Has harm been done. If it hasn't, then there is no question regarding morality. If there is harm, then there's something to be discussed. But you seem to have difficulty in even determing harm.

I'm at a loss...
No you didn't. You broke it back to what YOU think is harmful. Why is it obvious?

This argument is hubris in display. To say you are the arbiter of harm and morality for every culture is pretty brazen. Harm is determined by YOU.

You still haven't answered the question on what makes you the determiner. What is it about you that gives you the right and authority to be the arbiter of harm, and morality for every culture?
 
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rjs330

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She was shot for heaven's sake...

But you believe your opinion is right. I agree with with you. Harm has been done. And we don't think it was justified. Where is the problem in those 4 sentences?
So she was shot. The culture doesn't think it's that big of deal they don't see much harm in it. Why do you get to determine that it is very harmful for a different culture?
 
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