• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

When two worldviews collide.

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
33,136
20,499
Orlando, Florida
✟1,472,491.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
So you go from claiming that Christianity has created the idea that murder is wrong to now claiming that the definition of murder is so vague and nebulous that it can mean anything?

No.

I never said Christianity created the notion that murder was wrong. You can find that notion all the way in Egypt and Sumeria. However, specifically what is and isn't unlawful killing in western societies have been shaped heavily by the legacy of Christianity.
 
Upvote 0

stevevw

inquisitive
Nov 4, 2013
15,536
1,633
Brisbane Qld Australia
✟303,069.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
You are free to attempt that.
Ok so there are a number of arguements and reasons given for why using Gender preferred pronouns is not necessarily the best idea. They include breaching the Rights to free speech, belief and acting in accordance with ones conscience.

Being psychologically harmful to children by undermining their intuitive sense of their bodily reality, that you can't magically change sex. THis creates a disconnection in their psyche and can lead to further disassociation and psychological harm. This can also be the case for older people especially females but kids are esspecially volnurable.

Using pronouns is part of socially transitioning which has now been deemed harmful for similar reasons above especially as up to 90% of kids grow out of gender dysphoria. It just confuses them and makes it hard for them to realign with their bodily reality, their sex and gender are aligned..

Pronouns is also said to be a gateway drug to pushing Trans ideology. By making people conform to pronouns is the first step and part of indoctrinating people into the ideology. Its underhanded and harmful as it puts people in a situation where they feel guilty and fearful of speaking their mind. This is especially the case with children who have not got the understanding and are easily influenced.

When people harrass others for not using pronouns about not being courteous or claiming that by not affirming Trans people such as not using pronouns causes Trans people harm such as mental health or even suicide they are actually using emotional blackmail to force people to conform. Rather than allowing them to speak their mind and have a reasonable debate over the issue, allowing both sides to have their say.

Then there is also the harm that forced pronuns can have on gender non conforming people themselves. By insisting we all use pronouns such as within organisations, declaring pronouns at work, on sign offs, with name tages ect its forces GNC people into a situation where they have to declare themselves when they may not be sure. This causes further dysphoria and disatress.

It also affects people without Gender issues in that some people feel uncomfortable about declaring their gender when they don't even think this way. They naturally align their gender with their sex so its not an issue. In fact by hyper emphasizing gender and sex it actually makes it a problem. Makes it an issue to contend with, creates divisions based on gender and sex. Everyones worried about gender and pronouns. This seems unfair considering GNC is a very small % which is destablishing the majority.

Anyway thats a few as theres more but I will leave that up to the following links. I know there are many links but this seems necessarily to hit home the reality of what using pronouns really represents. Its much more than a case of being polite and caring. Its about understanding what is actually going on with the ideology. Pronouns is but a tiny representation and one way of pushing the ideological thinking onto society. Each of these links relates to a different arguement.

Doctors will no longer encourage gender-curious children to use preferred pronouns or dress as opposite sex under NHS guidelines
New guidelines say it can have significant effects on a child's psychology. We don't think changing pronouns helps anyone- it creates more problems than it resolves. Health chiefs say 'social transitioning' should be no longer be viewed as a 'neutral act' due to the significant effects it may have on a child's psychology.
NHS to discourage social transitioning of gender questioning children

The Case Against Mandatory Preferred Gender Pronouns
With regard to pronouns, however, insisting that people introduce themselves with their pronouns, fill out forms with them, or append them to their Zoom names can actually harm the community it intends to support. For those who are closeted with respect to gender identity, mandatory PGPs can force people into an uncomfortable lose-lose of either outing themselves before they’re ready or lying and feeling incredibly dysphoric.
The Case Against Mandatory Preferred Gender Pronouns | Opinion | The Harvard Crimson

Gender Affirmation and the Nocebo Effect
Gender-affirmative care reduces young people’s resilience in dealing with those who don’t see them as they would like to be seen. They may then hide from the world, fearing that someone might not affirm them. This causes their loci of control (i.e., the location of ability to make change) to shift from inside them to factors external to them. One study found that an external locus of control was associated with higher levels of depression and anxiety. When someone believes they are at the mercy of outside events and don’t have the ability to make meaningful change in their lives, it leaves them feeling paralyzed.
Gender Affirmation and the Nocebo Effect — Genspect

How Preferred Pronouns Threaten Free Speech
Conceiving of pronouns as something to be specified by the individual (with a potentially infinite array of choices), rather than as words that are proper or improper to use depending on who or what is being referenced, is the first step in the activists’ attempt to redefine the relationship between sex and human identity. Words—including pronouns—have meaning. They carry a message with them. And this isn’t just the opinion of those who insist that pronouns reflect biological reality:
How Preferred Pronouns Threaten Free Speech

The problem with ‘preferred pronouns’
Criticizing trans politics and discussing the incredibly harmful impacts of trans ideology, while also going along with “preferred” pronouns, obscures the message and makes the messenger appear to either be a hypocrite or that they really do not fully understanding the implications of this big lie. It also reinforces the notion that it is controversial or offensive to use correct pronouns, which it is not. It is not a matter of politeness, it is a matter of grooming people to accept totalitarianism and abuse. The problem with 'preferred pronouns'

The liberal case against pronouns

It creates a false impression that gender identity ideology is the norm even though it is a belief system shared by relatively few. Most importantly, compelled speech is a fundamentally illiberal prospect, one that should always be resisted by all.
The liberal case against pronouns

Gender Pronouns – Understanding Their Many Hidden Problems (And how this program’s downsides may outweigh its benefits)
It creates a great deal of disruption while you are only helping a small percentage of your employees.
Gender-revealing efforts run counter to our many years of minimizing any focus on gender.
Invasion of employee privacy by collecting and revealing gender information.

You are essentially forcing “the outing” of some employees.
PGP usage will force some employees to lie – not every employee will feel comfortable revealing and distributing their actual gender status to others.

The extreme focus on gender differences may reduce support and the funding for the more traditional diversity programs that have previously focused on women, minorities, and the neurodiverse.
Gender Pronouns – Understanding Their Many Hidden Problems (And how this program’s downsides may outweigh its benefits) - Dr John Sullivan

Problems with Preferred Pronouns
Second Age is also a biological reality and not chosen. Using a pronoun that refers to a person’s chosen sexual identity is like using a number to refer to person’s chosen age. Both are illegitimate because neither age nor sex is a matter determined by choice.
Third, preferred pronouns entail compelled speech. You’re expected to use an approved set of words when speaking about a person, even when you’re not around them. This is odd. If I’m in a different building, do they dictate how I speak? What if I’m in a different city, state, or country? Do they control what I can say? There’s no precedent for such a demand.


Fourth, using preferred pronouns entails adopting a foreign worldview. They’re not merely asking you to speak different words. You’re being asked to abandon your worldview position on this topic and adopt their worldview.
Fifth, using preferred pronouns ignores the principle of reciprocity. “You can believe whatever you want. You can believe you’re a woman when you’re biologically a man. Just don’t expect the rest of us to live according to your beliefs.” That’s fair.
Sixth, using preferred pronouns participates in social transitioning, a first step in a process that can lead to self-harm.
Seventh, practicing “pronoun hospitality” is not hospitable but insincere
. If you don’t believe a biological man can be a woman, but you use a female pronoun to refer to him, you’re being disingenuous. You’re saying something with your words (referring to him as a woman) that you don’t believe with your mind. Would a transgender person appreciate your pretending to affirm their chosen identity when you don’t believe it in your heart?
Problems with Preferred Pronouns

Forcing Children to Declare and Use Pronouns Risks Psychological Harm
A “disturbing trend” in schools across the country risks psychological harm to children by forcing them to identify their gender, declare their preferred pronouns, and refer to others with confusing pronouns that don’t seem to agree with reality. Pronoun discussions can usher in a more serious form of confusion, known as delirium.

It’s the practice of asking children to refer to a male as “she,” a female as “he,”or one individual as “they” that damages kids, And forcing children to use pronouns that don’t agree with the gender they observe causes “a risk of psychological harm.”
That’s because most children learn early that pronouns are supposed to represent the observed sex of that person
cryptogon.com » Forcing Children to Declare and Use Pronouns Risks Psychological Harm

'This Isn't Just About a Pronoun.' Teachers and Trans Students Are Clashing Over Whose Rights Come First
A top psychotherapist has warned parents they are risking their children's wellbeing by raising them as
gender neutral 'theybies'.
Chilling warning to parents raising kids as gender neutral 'theybies'

Why I’m Done with ‘Preferred Pronouns’
Why did I have to deny reality in order to be polite?
They say pronouns are a gateway drug, they open the door to these lies that lead to real harm to real females.” They’re a clever rhetorical trick that forces you to cede the argument about women’s spaces before you’ve even spoken one word of substance.

In posting this I still think as I said ealier that I would use pronouns in certain social situations as it is the polite thing to do. BUt I think it depends on the situation like if the topic came up for debate. I think then its unfair to make people deny their own beliefs and views. Also one on one situations especially in therapy its important to build raport.

But I think in the end its better to be able for both the GNC person and everyone else if we can openly discuss things as the fact is this builds resilence. Life is hard and we have to learn to live with the good and the bad. It makes for a happier and more resilent person.

But on a society wide basis, for policy, education, health care, especially for kids I am corned about how pronouns and other tactics are used to push an ideological belief that threatens the long held ideas the West has lived by such as Freedom of speech, religion and conscience. Moreso the harm it can do to children.
 
Last edited:
  • Useful
Reactions: rjs330
Upvote 0

Bradskii

Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Aug 19, 2018
22,471
15,111
72
Bondi
✟355,656.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
In posting this I still think as I said ealier that I would use pronouns in certain social situations as it is the polite thing to do.
What other situations are there? So you'd cause harm to 'be polite'. What an odd position to take.
 
Upvote 0

Kylie

Defeater of Illogic
Nov 23, 2013
15,046
5,305
✟326,081.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Female
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
No.

I never said Christianity created the notion that murder was wrong. You can find that notion all the way in Egypt and Sumeria. However, specifically what is and isn't unlawful killing in western societies have been shaped heavily by the legacy of Christianity.
How can you possibly expect me to believe that the idea that "Murder is wrong" is heavily shaped by Christianity when you freely admit that the "murder is wrong" idea has been around long before Christianity?

What, exactly, did Christianity bring to the "murder is wrong" idea?
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
33,136
20,499
Orlando, Florida
✟1,472,491.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
How can you possibly expect me to believe that the idea that "Murder is wrong" is heavily shaped by Christianity when you freely admit that the "murder is wrong" idea has been around long before Christianity?

What, exactly, did Christianity bring to the "murder is wrong" idea?

In some cultures, exposure of children (abandoning children to die in the wilderness) wasn't considered murder. In some cultures to this day, it's also acceptable to kill your daughter if she is raped, as a way of atoning for social shame. Those are all examples of how Christianity has shaped our notions of what is, and isn't, murder.
 
Upvote 0

Dan1988

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 8, 2018
1,866
690
36
Sydney
✟262,971.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Private
Those claims are going to need some citations to hold as credible.
I didn't think it was necessary to qualify those widely accepted historical facts. I'm happy to provide you the evidence if you're still in doubt. In the meantime, you could look at the latest news where you'll find "the Western Christian" countries being invaded by those ethnic groups I mentioned
 
Upvote 0

Dan1988

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 8, 2018
1,866
690
36
Sydney
✟262,971.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Private
I'm fairly certain people looked on murder as being bad long before Christianity was around.
I haven't found any historical evidence to support your view. I found the opposite, where murder was celebrated as a good thing by all the secular/pagan ethnic groups.

Every ethnic group celebrated ritual murder as a religious sacrament, most murdered their children as an offering to their Demon gods. That practice is more popular in todays secular world, than any time in ancient history.

These days millions of children are murdered, by their secular mothers. Although the mothers won't admit it, they're actually murdering their children in an act called "abortion". Their reason for murdering their children is the same as the ancients, it's an act of obedience to their Demon gods.

So nothing has changed, mankind is still as wicked as ever if not worse. That's why Christians are different, we don't murder our children to offer them to Demons. We obey God, who commanded us to have lots of children and not to harm them in any way.
 
Upvote 0

Bradskii

Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Aug 19, 2018
22,471
15,111
72
Bondi
✟355,656.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Upvote 0

Dan1988

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 8, 2018
1,866
690
36
Sydney
✟262,971.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Private

And in case you need to refer to this:

I'm aware of that, but the sad reality is none of them are Christians. They are simply deluded liars, claiming to be Christian whilst they serve Satan.

Most people who profess to be Christian, do so to gain favor or acceptance. A Christian actually lives as a Christian and that's what proves they are. Words are cheap and meaningless unless they're backed up with facts.

The Lord Jesus Christ said, "on that day, (referring to judgement day) many will come to Me saying Lord Lord, but I will say to them, I never knew you. Depart from Me into the ever lasting lake of fire". Then He will cast them into hell to be tormented forever and ever.

That's written in the book of Revelation, it's a reminder of what's going to happen to all those who profess to be Christian but are not.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Aaron112
Upvote 0

Bradskii

Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Aug 19, 2018
22,471
15,111
72
Bondi
✟355,656.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
I'm aware of that, but the sad reality is none of them are Christians.
Which is why I added that second link. Waste of my time I guess. I also must assume that you never sin.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kylie
Upvote 0

Dan1988

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 8, 2018
1,866
690
36
Sydney
✟262,971.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Private
Which is why I added that second link. Waste of my time I guess. I also must assume that you never sin.
I don't have any respect for the opinion of a philosophy professor, because I don't accept philosophy as a valid authority on any topic. Philosophy is based on circular reasoning so it has nothing to offer me as I only embrace facts and truth, I leave the rest to those who enjoy dabbling in fantasy.

I'm not sure if your joking with your assumption, that I never sin. I have sinned every day of my life and will continue to sin until I die, just as everyone else does and will continue to do until they die.

The big difference between me and non Christians, is my past, present and future sins have all been paid for so I'm not going to suffer the punishment for them. The other big difference between me and non Christians is, I'm a Saint and not a sinner. This is not a contradiction, as I don't identify as a sinner, because my life is not ruled by sin as is the case with all non Christians.

I don't sin willfully, while non Christians do so they will pay for every single sin they have ever committed. My sins are the result of me losing a battle, I battle against the desire to sin all the time and I win most of the time. But because I'm still in this fallen body which retains some of the old nature (before I was born again) I do succumb to temptation now and then.

The main difference is, the Lord Jesus Christ saved me from eternal punishment in hell. So I'm not fighting against the temptation to sin, in order to be saved but I fight as an act of thankfulness and obedience and worship. The non Christian's fight is in vain, he will lose because he's doing it for himself and nobody naturally has enough self respect to overcome the temptation to sin
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Bradskii

Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Aug 19, 2018
22,471
15,111
72
Bondi
✟355,656.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
I don't sin willfully...but I do succumb to temptation now and then.
Ah, so it's a choice you make. I understand. I have the same problem myself. Plus the women who are tempted to have an abortion. And also succumb...
 
Upvote 0

rjs330

Well-Known Member
CF Ambassadors
May 22, 2015
27,081
8,620
65
✟416,392.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
If you want to stretch the grotesque example and ask a monstrously ridiculous question then...yes. With parental agreement and with medical advice and supervision. And the same applies to the male equivalent.
Well at least your consistent in this. It's okay to mutilate children's genitalia as long as they want it, the parents and medical staff agree.
 
Upvote 0

rjs330

Well-Known Member
CF Ambassadors
May 22, 2015
27,081
8,620
65
✟416,392.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
There's a unisex toilet. And she has been selected as the new accounts person because she was the best person for the job. There is no harm. And what I said was being claimed as harm was one person in the office saying that calling her 'she' was harmful to that person. That is plainly absurd.
Really? No harm? What about conscience. Asking someone to lie and violate their conscience? That's harmful. Affirming the person further harms others by giving the person power over others speech which is harmful as well. It gives them power to demand to use women's spaces which harms women. After all everyone around "her" says "she" is a woman whether they really think so or not. This is the whole "you" thing you've been talking about. It's all about the transperson and what the transperson wants and screw everyone else. It's not just about them though. It's about everyone else. It's about the business, the bosses, the co-workers, the clients, women and everyone else and everywhere else the transperson go a and what the transperson does. This is the one mental health disorder that depends on everyone else's actions in order to feel better instead of their own.
 
Upvote 0

rjs330

Well-Known Member
CF Ambassadors
May 22, 2015
27,081
8,620
65
✟416,392.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Ah, so it's a choice you make. I understand. I have the same problem myself. Plus the women who are tempted to have an abortion. And also succumb...
But they are not forgiven and will be judged for the killing of their baby as well as every other sin committed. The only hope for her is Christ who will take away her sins and treat her as if she had never sinned. In the eyes of God she is made righteous because Christ IS her righteousness. Not of her own doing but Christs. That's the hope. That's what she needs. That's what we ALL need.
 
Upvote 0

rjs330

Well-Known Member
CF Ambassadors
May 22, 2015
27,081
8,620
65
✟416,392.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
I'll accept what they believe. But I won't accept that calling someone a pronoun that they say doesn't match their biological sex is somehow harming them. It's nonsensical.
Just like it's nonsensical to require others to use a pronoun that doesn't correspond with what they are. It causes them no harm. I won't accept that calling someone a pronoun that doesn't match what they want is somehow harming them.
 
Upvote 0

rjs330

Well-Known Member
CF Ambassadors
May 22, 2015
27,081
8,620
65
✟416,392.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
I want to stop harm. Period. I'm not interested in what other cultures think in this regard. If you are doing something harmful then stop doing it. I mean...who on earth could argue against that?
The culture in which it exists. That's the problem with the whole relativism of morality. That culture says it's not harmful, therefore it's not. Because morality is relative and not objective. It's subjective and because it's subjective cultures are allowed to set their own.

It appears that you are only interested in following cultures it societies
as long as they agree with you. Once they stop then you don't want to hear what they have to say or what they do. It seems you have become the arbiter of truth and morality.
 
Upvote 0

rjs330

Well-Known Member
CF Ambassadors
May 22, 2015
27,081
8,620
65
✟416,392.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
But if she wants her daughter's genitals sliced off with a knife then that isn't acceptable.
But that's perfectly ok when it comes to cutting someone's parts off if they say they are trans. It's all relative and nonsensical.
 
Upvote 0