When the door is shut

[Paidiske]

Please note: this thread is in the Egalitarian forum.

Something I've been thinking about in the last little while.

I've been very fortunate in ministry that by the time I recognised my vocation, my church (at least where I live) ordained women. While I've had to stare down various rude or bullying or belittling people (at college and in congregations), ordination wasn't closed off to me because of my sex.

And when I've looked for ministry jobs, although my choices are more constrained than my male colleagues because some places won't take a woman, I've never had to worry that I wouldn't be able to find work.

But there are still situations where the door is shut. (For example, I recently refused to work with the Gideons on something because they don't accept women as members. Told them I won't support a Christian organisation which doesn't treat men and women as equal in God's sight. Oddly enough they never replied to that email; but I digress...)

And I wonder; when it's your church, or somewhere you belong, and the door is shut, how do you decide what to do? Do you stay and protest and agitate for change (which is, after all, how we got women's ordination in the first place; the people who worked for that really fought hard)? Do you wipe the dust off your feet and find somewhere better? (Easier today than it used to be). Is there any alternative to those two approaches that doesn't see you gradually crushed at the injustice and the lack of integrity?

Some of you have much more lived experience of this than I do, and I'd be grateful for any insight you might share.

 

[HTacianas]

Please note: this thread is in the Egalitarian forum.

Something I've been thinking about in the last little while.

I've been very fortunate in ministry that by the time I recognised my vocation, my church (at least where I live) ordained women. While I've had to stare down various rude or bullying or belittling people (at college and in congregations), ordination wasn't closed off to me because of my sex.

And when I've looked for ministry jobs, although my choices are more constrained than my male colleagues because some places won't take a woman, I've never had to worry that I wouldn't be able to find work.

But there are still situations where the door is shut. (For example, I recently refused to work with the Gideons on something because they don't accept women as members. Told them I won't support a Christian organisation which doesn't treat men and women as equal in God's sight. Oddly enough they never replied to that email; but I digress...)

And I wonder; when it's your church, or somewhere you belong, and the door is shut, how do you decide what to do? Do you stay and protest and agitate for change (which is, after all, how we got women's ordination in the first place; the people who worked for that really fought hard)? Do you wipe the dust off your feet and find somewhere better? (Easier today than it used to be). Is there any alternative to those two approaches that doesn't see you gradually crushed at the injustice and the lack of integrity?

Some of you have much more lived experience of this than I do, and I'd be grateful for any insight you might share.

If my Church did something I didn't like I would change my views to agree with the Church. I gave up being my own Pope a long time ago.

 

[AnnaDeborah]

I think it depends on how big an issue it is. Something small, I would let it go. Something larger, I would ask the church to reconsider. If they didn't, I would either have to live with that or leave. Unity is precious and I would be wary of causing disunity by agitating too much for change. I'd rather pray for it - we talk about 'just praying' for something as if it's not a great deal, but praying is the most powerful thing we can do!

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Please note: this thread is in the Egalitarian forum.

Something I've been thinking about in the last little while.

I've been very fortunate in ministry that by the time I recognised my vocation, my church (at least where I live) ordained women. While I've had to stare down various rude or bullying or belittling people (at college and in congregations), ordination wasn't closed off to me because of my sex.

And when I've looked for ministry jobs, although my choices are more constrained than my male colleagues because some places won't take a woman, I've never had to worry that I wouldn't be able to find work.

But there are still situations where the door is shut. (For example, I recently refused to work with the Gideons on something because they don't accept women as members. Told them I won't support a Christian organisation which doesn't treat men and women as equal in God's sight. Oddly enough they never replied to that email; but I digress...)

And I wonder; when it's your church, or somewhere you belong, and the door is shut, how do you decide what to do? Do you stay and protest and agitate for change (which is, after all, how we got women's ordination in the first place; the people who worked for that really fought hard)? Do you wipe the dust off your feet and find somewhere better? (Easier today than it used to be). Is there any alternative to those two approaches that doesn't see you gradually crushed at the injustice and the lack of integrity?

Some of you have much more lived experience of this than I do, and I'd be grateful for any insight you might share.

One has to decide which is less stressful. Trying to stick it out in a church that won't accept you or leaving the church and starting anew somewhere else.

I'm quite fortunate that my Presbyterian church accepts me in spite of my Pentecostal theology and insistence that the supernatural gifts of the Spirit are available to us today. I have been an elder in that church for around 20 years now. I have even told the people, when it was my turn to preach, that unless we move into the gifts of the Spirit our declining church will die. They listen politely and say that I preach good messages, but they don't seem to do anything about what I say to them about it. The remarkable thing about it is that no one has ever criticised me for my full-Gospel position. Then again, I never push it outside of the pulpit.

Maybe it is because they are a very tolerant and loving people. The only time I was asked to limit my remarks was when a fellow elder had family members who were Catholic and Australian and he asked me, when I was to take the worship service that Sunday, not to tell Catholic or Australian jokes!!

We have folks with Catholic, Baptist, Presbyterians Open Brethren, and one or two with Charismatic backgrounds, so that is probably why they are so tolerant of different faith groups.

But there has been one cloud in the sky recently. As treasurer I made an error in our budget for next year, and I got sent a negatively worded email from the person employed in our church as a "mission enabler", he also quoted chapter and verse of the Presbyterian handbook concerning a couple of other issues. Our previous treasurer resigned because a previous minister was over-controlling of him, and I determine that I was not going to be controlled in the same way. So when I detected that this person was seeking to exercise control (he is not an officer of the church, but he is seeking to strongly influence the leadership in the direction of the church), I decided that after 18 years of being the treasurer, I felt that this type of stress was not for me, so last Saturday, I resigned as treasurer. I felt that a weight had lifted off me. It was okay when I enjoyed the role and felt that it was a ministry for me, but when someone else tries to control me in it, that's it for me. I'm too long in the tooth to put up with that nonsense.

So, there are times when it is right to stay while the folks accept me as I am and allow me to exercise my ministry in the Word of God to them; and it is also right that when I start to be subject to negative accusations of not being willing to go along with the "mission plan", to decide that it is time to give up that role.

I think that if things progress to a point where I felt I cannot continue my ministry in the Word and be an effective elder of that church, it may be time for me to go from that as well. Actually, there is another Presbyterian church not far away where the minister shares the same doctrinal views as I do, and his church is alive and thriving, and not declining like my present one.

My priority is God first, my family next, my part-time retirement job next, and the church after that. So leaving a church, for me, is not leaving Christ, but maybe going somewhere else where I can serve Christ better.

I trust that this is helpful for someone.

 

[Paidiske]

Is it just about what's less stressful, though, Oscar?

I mean, I get that, all other things being equal, that's as good a reason as any. But how do we know when what God wants of us is to stay and make a stand, even though that might be stressful and even costly?

 

[mama2one]

if you're up to it, no reason not to advocate for change

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Is it just about what's less stressful, though, Oscar?

I mean, I get that, all other things being equal, that's as good a reason as any. But how do we know when what God wants of us is to stay and make a stand, even though that might be stressful and even costly?

I think that is a personal thing and God, who knows our hearts, guides us individually. If He wants us to remain and take a stand, then His power and strength will be there to protect and support us. Ezekiel was told by God to go to the people and give them the word, and the people won't listen, but give the word in spite of that, because as a watchman of Israel he needed to raise his voice in warning then the blood of the people will not be on him but on them because he was faithful in giving the word and they did not listen or take heed to the warning. So when destruction came upon them they had no one to blame but themselves.

If God leads you to take that stand, and you know they will not listen, then He is allowing it as a judgment against them and when things turn to custard because they did not listen to God's Word through you, you have done faithfully in warning them.

But there comes a time when God gives up on people who harden their hearts and will not listen. Then judgment follows, but you will be taken out before it happens and God will take you to somewhere else to share His Word .

I think it is a matter of being in prayer and waiting on God for His wisdom and direction. When I lose my peace about something, that is when I go to prayer and ask the Lord, "What's going on here, and what do you want me to do?" I lost my peace concerning the treasurer role and so I went to the Lord about it, and it came back quite definitely that I should resign and allow someone else to take over. My fellow elders and Board of Managers were very supportive and understanding of the reasons for my resignation, and so my peace returned to me.

I still retain a peace about remaining an elder and part of the preachers roster - for the meantime, but because of circumstances, I am on "yellow alert". It is a case of being as wise as a serpent and harmless as a dove.

 

[Paidiske]

I think, thinking about it some more, part of the question might be:

If you stay under protest, how do you not let that corrode your respect for and relationships with the people who are holding the door shut?

 

[Dave-W]

If you stay under protest, how do you not let that corrode your respect for and relationships with the people who are holding the door shut?

That would be really difficult.

 

[mama2one]

guess you have to decide if it's worth staying or not
and if you stay, if you're able to make any changes

 

[WolfGate]

Paidiske - do the reasons and motives behind their stand matter? For example, would you view it differently if the person/body who set the rule that women could not be a pastor, for example, treated women as equals and was an advocate who promoted their inclusion and equality in every other way, but had a sincere orthodox view of the scriptures around pastor qualification? I guess it's possible you've never met someone with that view as other inequalities have gone hand in hand in your experience.

Obviously I've never experienced personally what women go through; closest I have is living it through my wife and daughter's experiences.

 

[Paidiske]

Yes, the reasons do matter.

I think, for example, of one job I looked at in a remote place where my denomination has no church buildings etc of its own, but is allowed to have worship services in the building of another denomination which doesn't ordain women. I understand why, in that circumstance, there was a stipulation the priest must be a man, so as not to unduly offend their hosts. I'd like to think that if they grow to the point of having their own building, they'll drop that restriction.

Recognising practical problems and being willing to work towards overcoming them feels different than a flat rejection.

But I'm not speaking specifically of a rule that women not be a pastor. There are lots of kinds of roles and areas of involvement (I mentioned the Gideons in my OP, for example, and they're not pastoring).

Oh, and in this forum, I think it would be - against the spirit of the SOP - to suggest that excluding women from particular roles is "orthodox."

 

[com7fy8]

Please note: this thread is in the Egalitarian forum.

In case I cross any lines, here, Paidiske, just edit or delete it.

While I've had to stare down various rude or bullying or belittling people

Even if I were to find you were wrong, Jesus has us have compassion and pray with hope for people > Hebrews 5:2 < not to welcome an excuse to look down on and criticize someone. So, such people would not represent God, even if He did not agree with what you do.

Also, our Apostle Paul had that "thorn in the flesh" "messenger of Satan" which I understand could test anything Paul did so he learned how to do everything in God's grace. God's grace is almighty so no one and nothing can stop us from doing whatsoever God is really committed to doing with us >

"and you will find rest for your souls" (Matthew 11:28-30) if and while we do what God is really having us do.

So, when a lady claims to be called, I might simply test her by encouraging her to do only what Jesus has us doing in His soul-soothing rest.

Any of us can get going in our egos, and then is when we miss out. We all are equal, like this! I have seen how certain women can become ordained, then they are equal to ones who just shut me up when they do not like what I offer.

One trick we all can play on ourselves is we can make some plan for our ministry, and then try to force or push it and break ourselves down somehow; but God keeps creating better and better with us, more and better than all we have imagined we hope to do.

I recently refused to work with the Gideons on something because they don't accept women as members.

If they came to you, knowing you are a woman, in order to include you in something . . . if I really considered a minister not to be legitimate, I would not seek that person to help me. I might even consider it an unequal yoke thing to seek that person. So, I find it interesting how they might want to use you but they did not feel you are doing God's will.

My opinion is you could have shared with them, in order to expose them to your example of humility . . . like how Paul became all things to all men. And you might do this, in order to reach ones of them > 1 Peter 5:3. Even so, "without Me you can do nothing," Jesus says in John 15:5. So, if you were of God and they were not . . . you might be able to use their things for God's good.

And I wonder; when it's your church, or somewhere you belong, and the door is shut, how do you decide what to do?

Various people say I should be a pastor, by now, but possibly there has been discrimination so I am not. But I have simply kept offering myself to God for real correction > Hebrews 12:4-11 < and it has worked out that I am a dirt doggie who helps the pastors. I do door hospitality where I can personally share with people. And I have time to share with people in their real lives so I can know how they really live and feel for them and give them God's word right in their real situations, maybe like to how Jesus left His Heaven and came down here with us so He could go through things we go through > Hebrews 4:15 < so now Jesus as our Groom can feel for us and minister to us His own grace which made Him able to do so well here.

Do you stay and protest and agitate for change (which is, after all, how we got women's ordination in the first place; the people who worked for that really fought hard)?

I don't think you need to fight for what God makes obvious to His obedient people. Jesus Christ's sheep can tell who God uses to take care of them. But in case we struggle to become equal with wrong people, we might have to become like them in order to have what they have. And this would not be a good way to be equal.

Do you wipe the dust off your feet and find somewhere better? (Easier today than it used to be).

First, in us we find better and better as we grow and get real correction and maturity. Then God makes His way for us to do all He has really prepared us to do. Never does God fail.

Is there any alternative to those two approaches that doesn't see you gradually crushed at the injustice and the lack of integrity?

In my case, Paidiske, I keep discovering how I do very well to have women who are superior to me while I might be the one leading somehow. My position has nothing to do with if I am superior or not!! David was chosen by God to be king, but Abigail I would say was quite superior to David. Or, what might have happened if she was like him . . . an equal? But David knew a real woman when he saw one, it seems to me.

It looks to me, like, Abigail married David and brought up one of his sons; this is all I know about her, from scripture. But who accomplished more > a mother who brought up one man to become perhaps a real person, or a well-reported king who used his position to commit adultery and to murder one of his most loyal and genuine friends in order to get his wife? And then there was such struggling, when he could have been snuggling.

Timothy was greatly used by Paul, but who prepared Timothy?

And how about how Paul and Silvanus and Timothy related with the Thessalonians >

"just as a nursing mother cherishes her own children"?

They considered it desirable to be equal to a nursing mother, in order to be able to take care of God's children God's way. This is included in the equality we need to seek, isn't it? And who, then, really, did God use to train these great men to become how they needed to become as God's ministers?

A seminary professor . . . peers who told them they were right and so great . . . or a nursing mother?

 

[AnnaDeborah]

If you stay under protest, how do you not let that corrode your respect for and relationships with the people who are holding the door shut?

I guess a lot of it would depend on their reasoning (did they sincerely believe they were right or were they just acting out of their own selfishness?) and also on your own spiritual maturity - I'm not very good at this, but I have encountered some Christians who are amazing in the way they will continue to respond in a Christ-like manner to those who have been really obnoxious! I would say though that if you can't continue in good fellowship in this situation, then you need to leave.

So, I find it interesting how they might want to use you but they did not feel you are doing God's will.

Perhaps they view each person as accountable to God and so they are accountable for their actions and @Paidiske for hers? My parents both believed that women should not teach/pastor men. The only difference was my mother would attend a service led by a woman, while my father would not - because according to their views, it was ok for my mother to attend (woman receiving teaching from a woman) but not for my father (man receiving teaching from a woman). So although they believed a woman should not teach men, their focus was on their own lives and whether their own actions were right (based on their understanding of Biblical passages on leadership). Outside of church meetings, both had good fellowship with women preachers. They felt that since we are each accountable to God for our own actions, the issue of the woman preaching was between that woman and God. I can think of situations where they would ask a female leader for help as long as the help required did not involve doing anything that they believed was not right for a Christian woman to do.

 

[Dave-W]

I understand why, in that circumstance, there was a stipulation the priest must be a man, so as not to unduly offend their hosts. I'd like to think that if they grow to the point of having their own building, they'll drop that restriction.

I totally get that. Most Messianic congregations in the US rent space from other denominational churches. Many of them put a LOT of restrictions as they are uneasy with our Jewish expressions. So if they have a severe problem with female clergy, I can see them putting that restriction on them.

Having your own building solves a LOT of that.

 

[bekkilyn]

Please note: this thread is in the Egalitarian forum.

Something I've been thinking about in the last little while.

I've been very fortunate in ministry that by the time I recognised my vocation, my church (at least where I live) ordained women. While I've had to stare down various rude or bullying or belittling people (at college and in congregations), ordination wasn't closed off to me because of my sex.

And when I've looked for ministry jobs, although my choices are more constrained than my male colleagues because some places won't take a woman, I've never had to worry that I wouldn't be able to find work.

But there are still situations where the door is shut. (For example, I recently refused to work with the Gideons on something because they don't accept women as members. Told them I won't support a Christian organisation which doesn't treat men and women as equal in God's sight. Oddly enough they never replied to that email; but I digress...)

And I wonder; when it's your church, or somewhere you belong, and the door is shut, how do you decide what to do? Do you stay and protest and agitate for change (which is, after all, how we got women's ordination in the first place; the people who worked for that really fought hard)? Do you wipe the dust off your feet and find somewhere better? (Easier today than it used to be). Is there any alternative to those two approaches that doesn't see you gradually crushed at the injustice and the lack of integrity?

Some of you have much more lived experience of this than I do, and I'd be grateful for any insight you might share.

I believe in prevenient grace, which is the idea that God calls to us, reaching out to us, even before we are ever aware of it, so even though I didn't realize my calling to vocational ministry until very recently, I can see in hindsight how God has been shaping me and getting me to this point throughout my life, even during those times I wasn't very close to him.

I grew up in the Southern Baptist denomination and it had been my experience that they did not encourage women to go into ministry, so I didn't even believe that such a thing was possible for me so even though I'd always had a passion for various things related to theology and religion, I moved on to doing the "responsible" thing, getting various secular jobs, etc. but have been happy in them no matter the amount of prayer, faking it until you make it, professional coaching and counseling and every other thing I tried.

As a young adult, there were years where I had stopped going to church, and then once I decided to go back to church, I didn't want to go back to the Southern Baptist church. Not that I had any disagreement with the core theology, and even though I wasn't considering vocational ministry at the time, the fact that women are considered to be "less than" men had always disturbed me and did not coincide with what I had learned of God's character in studying scriptures and in my personal relationship with him.

So after researching different denominations, I joined the United Methodist Church because the core theology matched up with my own beliefs and they included both men and women at all levels of church structure and did not discriminate. I had already decided that I would not again become a member of a denomination that excluded women simply because of biology.

When my latest career idea fell through after decades of struggle, I fell into depression and anxiety (and I believe I was under strong spiritual attack) and I vowed that this time around I would not jump into anything else, that I would pray and *listen* to what God wanted of me, without my usual, "Okay God, this is what I am going to do next. Hope you go along with it."

After months recovering from burnout, my mind began to clear and I was better able to hear what God was trying to say to me. I felt he was calling me into vocational ministry of some sort but I didn't know what and so after few weeks of building up my courage, I finally made an appointment with my pastor to talk to him about it. My (notice the word "my") idea was that the choices for vocational ministry were either as pastor or some sort of missionary, and since God wasn't calling me to be a pastor, it had to be missionary.

God apparently had other plans and now after many more months, I'm now somehow appointed to three churches as their pastor, which was NOT my original plan or intent. The candidacy process was very long and every time I'd get to a gate where I thought, "surely they'll realize their mistake" the gates would immediately and without effort swing wide open. Every single door opened. Every committee decision was unanimous from both men and women. It was unbelievable and really only believable because of God.

There is stress of course, but good stress, and I finally feel as if I am home. I still feel supremely unqualified, but as God is qualified and he is the one who qualifies the called, I have given the reigns to him and accepted that he knows what he is doing even if I don't.

So now when people talk about God not calling women to vocational ministry, and that women who go into it are seeking power or being led by Satan or whatever, I know it is utterly ridiculous, not only from my own experience (and NOT seeking this particular thing) but also from seeing the Spirit working in others, both male and female, in their various pastoral roles and callings.

My assigned mentor from the conference is an ordained Southern Baptist minister, so they did ordain her, but none of the local churches would hire her because the committee vote for the churches had to be unanimous and there was always someone who would vote no simply because she was a woman, so she is now appointed as a United Methodist pastor while still being an ordained Southern Baptist minister. When one door closes, God opens another when he wants his will to be done.

 

[WolfGate]

Oh, and in this forum, I think it would be - against the spirit of the SOP - to suggest that excluding women from particular roles is "orthodox."

I apologize. I was not trying to suggest that. I had tried using a phrase that I read a regular poster in this forum using to describe the beliefs of someone similar to what I was presenting, hoping that would be clear and thinking it wouldn't run afoul of Section 4 of the SOP for this forum. Clearly I didn't do a good job of conveying what I meant, but I think (hope?) you understood the root behind the concept. I unequivocally respect you and your ministry.

Yes, the reasons do matter.

I think, for example, of one job I looked at in a remote place where my denomination has no church buildings etc of its own, but is allowed to have worship services in the building of another denomination which doesn't ordain women. I understand why, in that circumstance, there was a stipulation the priest must be a man, so as not to unduly offend their hosts. I'd like to think that if they grow to the point of having their own building, they'll drop that restriction.

Recognising practical problems and being willing to work towards overcoming them feels different than a flat rejection.

But I'm not speaking specifically of a rule that women not be a pastor. There are lots of kinds of roles and areas of involvement (I mentioned the Gideons in my OP, for example, and they're not pastoring). ​

Yes, I understood your question to be broader - I went to the pastor example because I know that is something you have lived first hand. Did not realize the Gideon example in your OP was not pastoring, that does kind of make my example less relevant.​

 

[PloverWing]

And I wonder; when it's your church, or somewhere you belong, and the door is shut, how do you decide what to do? Do you stay and protest and agitate for change (which is, after all, how we got women's ordination in the first place; the people who worked for that really fought hard)? Do you wipe the dust off your feet and find somewhere better? (Easier today than it used to be). Is there any alternative to those two approaches that doesn't see you gradually crushed at the injustice and the lack of integrity?

That's a really hard situation. I think I'd say: Stay, as long as you feel you can make a difference and help change the culture, and as long as it isn't wearing you down too much emotionally and spiritually. When you get to the point that it's taking too much out of you, or your gifts are being stifled so that you can't live out your ministry as you should, then leave. I don't have a magic algorithm for figuring out when you reach "too much", though.

The life experiences I bring to this include these items: 1) I can think of four women from the Southern Baptist church I grew up in who went on to be ordained ministers. The Southern Baptists were moderately conservative when I was a child, on the fence about women's ordination; they have moved to a more strongly conservative position in the last 30 years. Of the four women, one remained Southern Baptist, two became Episcopalian, and one is now affiliated with the United Church of Christ. For some of the four, the fight became too hard after a while. 2) I myself have found a vocation in the secular world instead of the priesthood. But I am in computer science, a male-dominated profession. It's not explicitly sexist, in the way that conservative Christianity is, but there are just always, always a lot of XY chromosomes in the room, and I'm in a tiny minority. Here, my continued presence helps the women who come after me, I think. Because I was willing to be the only woman in the room, my students won't have to be the only woman in the room; I'm there too, keeping them company, looking out for their interests. Girls can look at you, being a priest of God in the church of God, and know that they don't have to suppress their gifts, know that if God calls them to the priesthood, they can say yes, and they won't be alone.

 

[Paidiske]

Yes, I think the point about "Is staying doing any good?" is an important one.

And yes, having women visible in different ways is so important.

Much to think on.

 

[Dave-W]

And I wonder; when it's your church, or somewhere you belong, and the door is shut, how do you decide what to do? Do you stay and protest and agitate for change (which is, after all, how we got women's ordination in the first place; the people who worked for that really fought hard)? Do you wipe the dust off your feet and find somewhere better? (

Keith (Asher) Intrater once said about intractable situations like that the best thing to do is PRAY, talk, pray, talk, pray and talk until either you come to a good agreement or feel the Lord moving you on.