When Jerusalem shall be safe

DavidPT · Sep 21, 2018

Erik Nelson said:
After the Millennium, Satan acting through Gog & Magog deceives all the nations into doubting "what had been obvious during the Millennium".

The nations forget all about the Millennium ever having already occurred in the past. Deceived, they doubt.

The "Final Coming" event when Jesus arrives on God's Great White Throne at Final Judgement (Rev 20:9-ff) re-reminds the nations that, "oh, yeah, OOPS, right God is God and Jesus is His Christ".

-----

Scripture unambiguously associates:

Ezekiel 38-39 = Gog & Magog vs. Israel & camp of the Saints = Revelation 20:7-9

---

Zechariah 9:9 = Triumphal Entry
Zechariah 11:12-13 = Judas' Betrayal
Zechariah 13:7-9 = Crucifixion, Apostles Scatter, Messiah cut off with nothing = Dan 9:26
Zechariah 14:1-2 = First Jewish-Roman War, 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem
Zechariah 14:5 = Christians' miraculous escape from doomed Jerusalem to Pella in 70 AD
Zechariah 14:6+ = Millennium (?)

Here's something to maybe consider. This of course doesn't agree with Premil, a position I hold,, yet this is something that just came to mind after having read and responded to your post above.

Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle----And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle

That's interesting, wouldn't you agree that it's interesting? And if this does connect, this further proves it is ludicrous to take anything in Zechariah 14:1-5 having to do with the events of 70 AD.

Erik Nelson · Sep 21, 2018

DavidPT said:
I tend to think you are sadly mistaken if you think Zechariah 14:1-5 somehow involves the events of 70 AD. IMO, Zechariah 14:2 is referring to the following for one.

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Where that in turn appears to be referring to the following.

Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Where this same 42 months appears to be referring to the following.

Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

And finally, all of these things in all of the above adding up to the great tribulation that precedes the 2nd coming. Notice in Zechariah 14 that the Lord doesn't initially fight against those nations coming against Jerusalem, but that He fights them because of what they have done to Jerusalem in Zechariah 14:2.

On a different note, you might have a valid point when you said this, though I'm not entirely certain yet that you do-----"Scripture unambiguously associates:

Ezekiel 38-39 = Gog & Magog vs. Israel & camp of the Saints = Revelation 20:7-9"

Yes, exactly, and

Zech 14 = Luke 21 = Rev 11-13 = Armageddon vs. Babylon = Roman attack of 1st century Jerusalem

After 70 AD, the Lord fights and conquers the "nations vs. Jerusalem"... even as the Lord's Church spiritually converted that very same pagan empire in the 3rd century AD

Zech 14 ends at Rev 19-20 with the onset of the Millennium

Rev 20 continues with Ezek 38-39 with the epoch after the Millennium, when somehow something unleashes the Adversary to deceive most of humanity... to the extent that they apparently forget how obvious it had been for the past 1000 years that Jesus really was the Messiah of the actually-existing God in heaven

Rev 20:9 reminds them and "brings it all back" so to speak, "oh, yeah... right... GOD... in the HEAVENS... yeah, well, I guess I got distracted" (or something vaguely like that)

Erik Nelson · Sep 21, 2018

DavidPT said:
I tend to think you are sadly mistaken if you think Zechariah 14:1-5 somehow involves the events of 70 AD. IMO, Zechariah 14:2 is referring to the following for one.

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Where that in turn appears to be referring to the following.

Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Where this same 42 months appears to be referring to the following.

Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

And finally, all of these things in all of the above adding up to the great tribulation that precedes the 2nd coming. Notice in Zechariah 14 that the Lord doesn't initially fight against those nations coming against Jerusalem, but that He fights them because of what they have done to Jerusalem in Zechariah 14:2.

On a different note, you might have a valid point when you said this, though I'm not entirely certain yet that you do-----"Scripture unambiguously associates:

Ezekiel 38-39 = Gog & Magog vs. Israel & camp of the Saints = Revelation 20:7-9"

Yes, exactly, and

Zech 14 = Luke 21 = Rev 11-13 = Armageddon vs. Babylon = Roman attack of 1st century Jerusalem

After 70 AD, the Lord fights and conquers the "nations vs. Jerusalem"... even as the Lord's Church spiritually converted that very same pagan empire in the 3rd century AD

Zech 14 ends at Rev 19-20 with the onset of the Millennium

Rev 20 continues with Ezek 38-39 with the epoch after the Millennium, when somehow something unleashes the Adversary to deceive most of humanity... to the extent that they apparently forget how obvious it had been for the past 1000 years that Jesus really was the Messiah of the actually-existing God in heaven

Rev 20:9 reminds them and "brings it all back" so to speak, "oh, yeah... right... GOD... in the HEAVENS... yeah, well, I guess I got distracted" (or something vaguely like that)

Erik Nelson · Sep 21, 2018

DavidPT said:
Here's something to maybe consider. This of course doesn't agree with Premil, a position I hold,, yet this is something that just came to mind after having read and responded to your post above.

Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle----And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle

That's interesting, wouldn't you agree that it's interesting? And if this does connect, this further proves it is ludicrous to take anything in Zechariah 14:1-5 having to do with the events of 70 AD.

After the Millennium, the "camp of the Saints", surely meaning the true spiritual Jerusalem, never falls...

it gets surrounded... but holds out... like Bastogne in the Battle of the Bulge (for wont of worthier words)… or like Leningrad / St. Petersburg I suppose also

the "camp of the Saints" stands until "the space cavalry arrives" with "orbital bombardment fire support" (Rev 20:9)

only the physical apostate (from a Christian perspective) city fell, in 70 AD

yet the Church is Prophesied to endure, even if under duress

Not David · Sep 21, 2018

shilohsfoal said:
Your church doesnt teach the word of God then.Try reading Gods word sometime.Try reading it and believe what you read.

They wrote the Bible you use.

shilohsfoal · Sep 21, 2018

David Cabrera said:
They wrote the Bible you use.

Then perhaps you should believe it.
Revelation 20:4 Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Once you start spiritualizing everything because you cant believe what you read,then you will end up undestanding nothing.

Not David · Sep 21, 2018

shilohsfoal said:
Then perhaps you should believe it.
Revelation 20:4 Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Once you start spiritualizing everything because you cant believe what you read,then you will end up undestanding nothing.

Like you spiritualize "This is my Body"?

DavidPT · Sep 21, 2018

Erik Nelson said:
After the Millennium, the "camp of the Saints", surely meaning the true spiritual Jerusalem, never falls...

it gets surrounded... but holds out... like Bastogne in the Battle of the Bulge (for wont of worthier words)… or like Leningrad / St. Petersburg I suppose also

the "camp of the Saints" stands until "the space cavalry arrives" with "orbital bombardment fire support" (Rev 20:9)

only the physical apostate (from a Christian perspective) city fell, in 70 AD

yet the Church is Prophesied to endure, even if under duress

I'm sure you are aware that a lot of passages in the Bible are compressed, and that one then finds the missing details elsewhere. Could be the case with Revelation 20:7-9. Revelation 20:7-9 involves a little season. A little season would obviously involve a period of time. So in order to know what happens during this little season, we have to look elsewhere in order to fill in some of the missing details. BTW, if I'm not careful here I might end up talking myself out of Premil before it's over. Maybe that might be a good thing though--I don't know.

DavidPT · Sep 21, 2018

shilohsfoal said:
If this verse in ezekiel 38 is fulfilled first and all of them who dwell in,jerusaem,are safe as ezekiel 38 :8 says.Then why are thewomen,in zech 14:2 raped?

Do you believe a woman is safe when she can,be raped ?

Zech 14:2 has to take place first or ezekiel 38:8 would be wrong.

It seems to me then that we both have some issues we need to try and resolve. I think I can maybe resolve mine, but can you resolve yours though? What are some issues you need to try and reslove? I already showed in some posts to you what some of them are. As to issues I need to resolve, well per Zechariah 14:2 Jerusalem is obviously not safe at the time. But what about before the things in verse 2 start getting fulfilled? Could Jerusalem be considered safe in comparison?

Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Obviously these things have a starting point. But until that starting point initially begins, couldn't Jerusalem basically be said to be safely inhabited until these things start to occur?

Look at this way. Even though Zechariah 14:2 has zero to do with the events of 70 AD, let's still use that as an example though. After Jerusalem was rebuilt, and that Christ came, and that Jerusalem was then destroyed in 70 AD, wouldn't it be safe to conclude that before Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD, that during the time Christ was present, Jerusalem was safely inhabited at the time? And if yes, why can't the same logic work with Zechariah 14:2 before that verse initially begins to get fulfilled?

iamlamad · Sep 21, 2018

DavidPT said:
It seems to me then that we both have some issues we need to try and resolve. I think I can maybe resolve mine, but can you resolve yours though? What are some issues you need to try and reslove? I already showed in some posts to you what some of them are. As to issues I need to resolve, well per Zechariah 14:2 Jerusalem is obviously not safe at the time. But what about before the things in verse 2 start getting fulfilled? Could Jerusalem be considered safe in comparison?

Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Obviously these things have a starting point. But until that starting point initially begins, couldn't Jerusalem basically be said to be safely inhabited until these things start to occur?

Look at this way. Even though Zechariah 14:2 has zero to do with the events of 70 AD, let's still use that as an example though. After Jerusalem was rebuilt, and that Christ came, and that Jerusalem was then destroyed in 70 AD, wouldn't it be safe to conclude that before Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD, that during the time Christ was present, Jerusalem was safely inhabited at the time? And if yes, why can't the same logic work with Zechariah 14:2 before that verse initially begins to get fulfilled?

WHEN do you see this scripture in Zech. taking place? I would place it in Rev.

Revelation 17:12
And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

iamlamad · Sep 21, 2018

DavidPT said:
Here's something to maybe consider. This of course doesn't agree with Premil, a position I hold,, yet this is something that just came to mind after having read and responded to your post above.

Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle----And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle

That's interesting, wouldn't you agree that it's interesting? And if this does connect, this further proves it is ludicrous to take anything in Zechariah 14:1-5 having to do with the events of 70 AD.

I think it is ludicrous.

iamlamad · Sep 21, 2018

shilohsfoal said:
Your church doesnt teach the word of God then.Try reading Gods word sometime.Try reading it and believe what you read.

What a novel idea! Actually read the word of God!

iamlamad · Sep 21, 2018

Dave L said:
“For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.” (Galatians 5:3–4)

I, for one, will never desire to become indebted to the whole law!

iamlamad · Sep 21, 2018

dannheim said:
Their are millions of Jews that would disagree with your statement that God abolished circumcision. What scripture by God himself that says so? The covenant with Abraham is still valid. Otherwise that would make God a liar and we all know that is impossible.

Better hurry out then and be circumcised! But before you do, please read Galatians.

iamlamad · Sep 21, 2018

David Cabrera said:
The Church never taught about a real 1000 years. We are living in a symbolic 1000 years.

Every church I have attended over 60 some years has taught the 1000 year reign of Christ. And why not? It is in the bible!

shilohsfoal · Sep 21, 2018

DavidPT said:
It seems to me then that we both have some issues we need to try and resolve. I think I can maybe resolve mine, but can you resolve yours though? What are some issues you need to try and reslove? I already showed in some posts to you what some of them are. As to issues I need to resolve, well per Zechariah 14:2 Jerusalem is obviously not safe at the time. But what about before the things in verse 2 start getting fulfilled? Could Jerusalem be considered safe in comparison?

Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Obviously these things have a starting point. But until that starting point initially begins, couldn't Jerusalem basically be said to be safely inhabited until these things start to occur?

Look at this way. Even though Zechariah 14:2 has zero to do with the events of 70 AD, let's still use that as an example though. After Jerusalem was rebuilt, and that Christ came, and that Jerusalem was then destroyed in 70 AD, wouldn't it be safe to conclude that before Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD, that during the time Christ was present, Jerusalem was safely inhabited at the time? And if yes, why can't the same logic work with Zechariah 14:2 before that verse initially begins to get fulfilled?

No one has ever been safe in jerusalem and willnot untill christ comes.
If you notice in zech 14 after the city has been taken and the women raped and the occupants led into captivity, the Lord arrives.

Zechariah 14:3 KJV: Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zechariah 14:4 KJV: And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Zechariah 14:5 KJV: And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
Zechariah 14:6 KJV: And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
Zechariah 14:7 KJV: But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
Zechariah 14:8 KJV: And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
Zechariah 14:9 KJV: And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
Zechariah 14:10 KJV: All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
Zechariah 14:11 KJV: And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

So you see.Jerusalem isnt safe untill after jesus comes ,resurrects those in rev 20:4 and the 1000 year reign begins.So when Gog comes in 1000 years,the land would have healed from,the war of Armeggedon and the saints will still be in the land promised to them without walls or bars.A peaceful people who dwell safely .
And as i said before,they were ressurected when Jesus came,they cant die again.
God can reign down hell fire all over the land and all of Gogs army die,but those with Christ will not die.

Revelation 20:6 KJV: Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

I have no issues to clear up.
Do you believe you will keep the Sabbath David?Ive heard it will be a good day to keep.

dannheim · Sep 21, 2018

iamlamad said:
Better hurry out then and be circumcised! But before you do, please read Galatians.

I am already circumcised. I am a Jewish person who believes that Yeshua is the Messiah as foretold in Holy Scripture.

shilohsfoal · Sep 21, 2018

dannheim said:
I am already circumcised. I am a Jewish person who believes that Yeshua is the Messiah as foretold in Holy Scripture.

Are you in israel?

Erik Nelson · Sep 21, 2018

DavidPT said:
I'm sure you are aware that a lot of passages in the Bible are compressed, and that one then finds the missing details elsewhere. Could be the case with Revelation 20:7-9. Revelation 20:7-9 involves a little season. A little season would obviously involve a period of time. So in order to know what happens during this little season, we have to look elsewhere in order to fill in some of the missing details. BTW, if I'm not careful here I might end up talking myself out of Premil before it's over. Maybe that might be a good thing though--I don't know.

Well, yes, revelation 20 versus 7 through 9. Clearly point us to. The gog and Magog passages in Ezekiel Chapters 38 to 9.

I offer that you don't have to talk yourself out of your primale position. Only that you may have to qualify your remarks. Revelation 19 clearly shows some sort of Second coming like event prior to the Millennium. Yes, revelation, 20 clearly indicates the Great White throne arrives after the millennium

I offer that revelation 19 depicts some sort of SPIRITUAL Second Coming. Whereas revelation 20 depics an actual physical CORPOREAL Second coming of Christ on God's throne that final judgment.

If so, premial is not wrong. It is completely correct. If only partially so. Likewise, postmile is correct. Yes, only partially so. The complete picture combines both premil and Postmill.

There is some sort of SPIRITUAL second coming in revelation 19, which ushers in the Millennium. Of the church Kingdom in. Political power. After which The Great White throne eventually arrives with Christ CORPOREALLY. Sitting up on it. The PHYSICAL and final second coming and final judgment.

Erik Nelson · Sep 21, 2018

iamlamad said:
I, for one, will never desire to become indebted to the whole law!

If you're not a Jew You don't have to.

You can enter into the Churchley Kingdom of Christ through the Gentile door. You only have to keep. Noahide Commandments. Giving to Noah in Genesis 9. As interpreted by the church at the first Council of Jerusalem in about 50 ad.

Jews who Convert to Christ, though. Must still maintain that or even as the Apostles and even as Saint Paul maintained the Torah in Acts 21

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