When is killing someone ok?

[Supernaut]

I believe in home protection. If someone is breaking into my home I will definitely, if circumstances permit, be ready and wainting... though I do not want to kill, I will if I have no other choice.

 

[Verv]

It is proper to kill someone when commanded by God or when doing God's work that someone attempts to interrupt. Unless your work includes martyrdom.

It is also proper to kill someone during a war.

Other times, murder is more than immoral.

 

[ebia]

Thank you.

As an interesting side question, since you mentioned it being the "less bad" choice, do you believe there are some scenarios where there is no truly ethical choice? No correct, good choice?

-Lyn

At least in the short term, yes.

 

[Ave Maria]

It is only ok to kill someone if you are a soldier in a war and you are killing an enemy soldier. I believe it is also ok for the death penalty to be used in certain cases.

 

[DaisyDay]

If God commanded you to kill someone, would you do it?

-Lyn

I might if I were undergoing a psychotic break.

 

[DaisyDay]

Why is it ok to kill someone in war?

 

[Penumbra]

It is also proper to kill someone during a war.

It is only ok to kill someone if you are a soldier in a war and you are killing an enemy soldier.

Addressed to both of you:

Is it permissible to kill in any type of war as long as your country is involved in it, or is it only permissible to kill in wars for certain reasons? If so, what are those reasons?

If two countries are fighting over an amount of land, is it permissible to kill for your side? If so, how is that different from killing your neighbor over his land?

-Lyn

 

[Penumbra]

I view killing someone to never be acceptable. In any case. I can imagine no scenario that would allow me to accept that someone should be killed.

I think that, for me, it is not a choice to make. I can not, and will not, kill someone. By words or action ,acceptance or condemnation.

But I begrudge no one for killing a person if they do it in defense. Whether it be in defense of themselves or someone else.

So if you had a family with a wife and kids, and someone broke in and seemed intent on committing murder, you would not try to kill the attacker?

Also, if your view that killing someone is never acceptable, what is your view of the Old Testament? Ten plagues of Egypt, the flood, the wars of Joshua, Moses killing people, and so forth?

-Lyn

 

[Inquisition]

In your opinion, what situations, if any, make it ethically reasonable to purposefully take a human life?

Edit: Also, if you provide a scenario where killing is ok, please elaborate as to why. If you believe killing is never ok, please explain that as well. Thanks!

-Lyn

I would say that give that the Holy Scriptures differentiate between killing and murder, that we should use that standard.

 

[Penumbra]

I would say that give that the Holy Scriptures differentiate between killing and murder, that we should use that standard.

Can you elaborate/summarize a bit?

Because from reading the scriptures, which are quite long and contain many things, it's hard to find a concrete list.

I mean, Elijah used a curse to send bears to maul a bunch of children because they called him bald, yet Elijah is exalted as one of the most important people in the Bible. So I see some mixed messages.

What standard should we use, if you could explain it a bit? Thanks.

-Lyn

 

[Inquisition]

Can you elaborate/summarize a bit?

Because from reading the scriptures, which are quite long and contain many things, it's hard to find a concrete list.

I mean, Elijah used a curse to send bears to maul a bunch of children because they called him bald, yet Elijah is exalted as one of the most important people in the Bible. So I see some mixed messages.

What standard should we use, if you could explain it a bit? Thanks.

-Lyn

I would be happy to look at the example you offer, but first we must have agreement on the terms we are using in this discussion. Can you please offer me what you believe to be the definition of the term murder.

 

[Penumbra]

I would be happy to look at the example you offer, but first we must have agreement on the terms we are using in this discussion. Can you please offer me what you believe to be the definition of the term murder.

I don't have very concrete beliefs on the subject. That's why I started this thread (and because I had a nightmare where I killed someone in self-defense, but yeah...). I'm mostly just playing devil's advocate with people who have given their viewpoints, whether they are for killing in certain instances or against killing entirely, so that I can see how consistent their beliefs are and how well they can explain them.

You're new so you probably haven't read any of my other thoughts on the subject of murder. (Welcome to the forums by the way.)

In previous threads, I have said that I find little difference between murder and killing. To kill someone is to consider your own preservation (or preservation of your children or other people) as being higher than another person's, and this can occur in defense, in war, or for other reasons. The only difference between murder and killing, then, is that murder is just killing that is considered by the current majority to be unreasonable. So killing an attacker: ok. Killing enemy soldiers in a war you may not fully understand: ok. Killing someone because they are of another religion: Ok or not ok depending on what time period you live in. Killing someone to cash in on their life insurance: not ok.

-Lyn

 

[Inquisition]

I don't have very concrete beliefs on the subject. That's why I started this thread (and because I had a nightmare where I killed someone in self-defense, but yeah...). I'm mostly just playing devil's advocate with people who have given their viewpoints, whether they are for killing in certain instances or against killing entirely, so that I can see how consistent their beliefs are and how well they can explain them.

You're new so you probably haven't read any of my other thoughts on the subject of murder. (Welcome to the forums by the way.)

In previous threads, I have said that I find little difference between murder and killing. To kill someone is to consider your own preservation (or preservation of your children or other people) as being higher than another person's, and this can occur in defense, in war, or for other reasons. The only difference between murder and killing, then, is that murder is just killing that is considered by the current majority to be unreasonable. So killing an attacker: ok. Killing enemy soldiers in a war you may not fully understand: ok. Killing someone because they are of another religion: Ok or not ok depending on what time period you live in. Killing someone to cash in on their life insurance: not ok.

-Lyn

Interesting. What about when someone walks out in front of your car while you are driving? Or someone who is killed because your product is defective in some way? Then again there is breaking someones will through torture - isn't that a form of killing?

Allow me to offer you definitions of the terms.

Killing - the taking of a life.

Murder - the willful act of taking someones life without just cause.

can you accept those definitions?

 

[Penumbra]

Interesting. What about when someone walks out in front of your car while you are driving? Or someone who is killed because your product is defective in some way?

It's killing, though unintentional.

Negligence could be involved, such as not paying attention while driving, or not testing a product thoroughly. Or in some cases, negligence is not involved, and the person did everything "right" but couldn't help but lead to a death by accident. It's killing, but not purposeful, and so I don't think ethics and morality can apply to something that was a complete accident.

Then again there is breaking someones will through torture - isn't that a form of killing?

I find torture to be the most unethical thing in my worldview. Worse than killing, and permissible under no circumstances.

Allow me to offer you definitions of the terms.

Killing - the taking of a life.

Murder - the willful act of taking someones life without just cause.

can you accept those definitions?

Possibly, depending on what you mean by just cause. Did Elijah have just cause to send bears to maul children for calling him bald, or no?

-Lyn

 

[Verv]

Why is it ok to kill someone in war?

Addressed to both of you:

Is it permissible to kill in any type of war as long as your country is involved in it, or is it only permissible to kill in wars for certain reasons? If so, what are those reasons?

If two countries are fighting over an amount of land, is it permissible to kill for your side? If so, how is that different from killing your neighbor over his land?

-Lyn

If one is forced into fighting against one's will it is OK to kill in order to stay alive because it would be useless to simply accept the punishment for not fighting, which could be death.

And I guess in other terms the magic rule is do not engage in the massacre of noncombatants even if called upon to do it.

You bring up good questions but you know, the question in some way calls on the writer to write a book.

But for the sake of being brief, as a general rule it is OK to fight for one's country in any number of wars becuse it is often unavoidable and to not do so can jeopardize oneself, which would make your death perhaps even pointless.

 

[Penumbra]

If one is forced into fighting against one's will it is OK to kill in order to stay alive because it would be useless to simply accept the punishment for not fighting, which could be death.

Interesting.

And I guess in other terms the magic rule is do not engage in the massacre of noncombatants even if called upon to do it.

What if God commands you to kill noncombatants? Like Moses and Joshua.

You bring up good questions but you know, the question in some way calls on the writer to write a book.

Admittedly true.

But for the sake of being brief, as a general rule it is OK to fight for one's country in any number of wars becuse it is often unavoidable and to not do so can jeopardize oneself, which would make your death perhaps even pointless.

Sounds like a lot of self preservation. Not that that's wrong.

-Lyn

 

[No Swansong]

Never. There may be occassions when it's the less bad option, or even the least bad option, but it's never okay.

I have to agree with my friend ebia here. I can't imagine a situation in which taking a human life is ever a good thing, I can imagine situations when it is the least bad thing. For example I hope I never have to take a human life while defending another, but I do know that I am capable of doing so and would indeed do so if necessary.

To answer the deeper question, in my own opinion the person that would be killed is just as valuable as the person who would not be (presumable me or a loved one) The reason I would take their life would be selfish on my part admittedly.

 

[Penumbra]

I have to agree with my friend ebia here. I can't imagine a situation in which taking a human life is ever a good thing, I can imagine situations when it is the least bad thing. For example I hope I never have to take a human life while defending another, but I do know that I am capable of doing so and would indeed do so if necessary.

To answer the deeper question, in my own opinion the person that would be killed is just as valuable as the person who would not be (presumable me or a loved one) The reason I would take their life would be selfish on my part admittedly.

Thanks for your response. I don't really have anything in there to play devil's advocate on.

-Lyn

 

[Inquisition]

It's killing, though unintentional.

Negligence could be involved, such as not paying attention while driving, or not testing a product thoroughly. Or in some cases, negligence is not involved, and the person did everything "right" but couldn't help but lead to a death by accident. It's killing, but not purposeful, and so I don't think ethics and morality can apply to something that was a complete accident.


I find torture to be the most unethical thing in my worldview. Worse than killing, and permissible under no circumstances.


Possibly, depending on what you mean by just cause. Did Elijah have just cause to send bears to maul children for calling him bald, or no?

-Lyn

Question - Do you believe that Elijah mentally controlled the bears? I'm curious as to how you conclude that Elijah is guilty of killing them through the bears.

 

[Penumbra]

Question - Do you believe that Elijah mentally controlled the bears? I'm curious as to how you conclude that Elijah is guilty of killing them through the bears.

Some people believed in curses back then. Noah cursed his son, and Elijah cursed some children for calling him bald, and then bears immediately came out and mauled children. Then the story proceeds like nothing happened, and Elijah continues.

-Lyn