When is abortion acceptable?

[Miracle Storm]

[FONT=arial,helv]"And if men struggle and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise." [/FONT][FONT=arial,helv]Exodus 21:22-25 [/FONT]

Sir I promise you I can show you pictures of many unborn children with "eyes" "hands" "feet"
Those that have been aborted, I could show you pictures of their bodies burned with acid, dismembered body parts, and crushed skulls. Not only is it murder, but clearly torture. . .

Can you only find one Scripture to Support your view of life?

 

[Rebekka]

I agree with this. Cept I want to say that I don't like calling myself "pro-life" cause I AM pro-death penalty and I realize the hypocrisy in the statement of "pro-life" in that sense so I call myself "anti-abortion."

I appreciate it that you make the distinction between anti-abortion and pro-life, because you just showed that they are not automatically exchangeable.

I'm against the death penalty (and against euthanasia - which is legal where I live ) so I do use the word pro-life to describe what I am.

 

[Celticflower]

I voted when the mother's life is in danger. Altho' these situations are few and far between, doctors still need the ablitlity to perform a medically sound procedure when called for.

In the case of rape/incest, I must admit I am a bit torn. In these cases I think a no questions asked adoption should be an option (had a friend who was going to put a baby up for adoption until the judge said either she revealed the father's name or they would run an ad in the paper asking any and all men she'd had sex with to come forward. She wound up keeping the baby).

I am definately against using abortion in place of birth control. If you are going to play with fire you have to expect to get burned. If you play at sex stupidly you are going to get pregnant. Have the child and either keep it or put it up for adoption.

 

[LoG]

Can you only find one Scripture to Support your view of life?

I've shown you two verses already that speak of the status of an unborn child.

Let's take a look at a few others:

Lev 27:5 And if from five years old to twenty years old, then your judgment shall be of the male twenty shekels, and for the female ten shekels.
6 And if from a month old to five years old, then your judgment shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female your judgment shall be three shekels of silver.

Verse 6, God puts no monetary value on a child of less then 1 month old. And again:

Num 3:14 And the LORD spoke to Moses in the wilderness of Sinai saying,
15 Number the sons of Levi according to their fathers' house, by their families. You shall number them, every male from a month old and upward.A child of less then 1 month old is not counted in a census.

These verses strongly point out that "ensoulment" which is what makes us a human soul, does not happen until a baby is born.


The view of Early Church Fathers and history is also interesting:

St. Augustine (AD 354-430) said, “There cannot yet be said to be a live soul in a body that lacks sensation”, and held that abortion required penance only for the sexual aspect of the sin. He and other early Christian theologians believed, as had Aristotle centuries before, that "animation", or the coming alive of the fetus, occurred forty days after conception for a boy and eighty days after conception for a girl. The conclusion that early abortion is not homicide is contained in the first authoritative collection of canon law accepted by the church in 1140. As this collection was used as an instruction manual for priests until the new Code of Canon Law of 1917, its view of abortion has had great influence.

Please don't think that this means I am Pro-Choice because that couldn't be further from the truth. Children are a blessing as the bible states. However I believe the bible shows that the life of the mother is of more value then the unborn fetus and if her life is threatened then the need to abort is clear.

We are called to follow the Law of love. Should that not extend to the woman who was raped whether through incest or a stranger? The remainder of her life will be affected by the sin of another causing financial hardship, lost opportunities and the constant reminder of the humiliation she had to suffer.
There is a young girl on these boards who has been raped and is now pregnant. She has been clearly told by doctors that if the baby is not aborted she will likely die as a result because of a medical condition she has. That will result in the babies death as well as her own. It is easy for us to stand in judgement of another even when there is no scriptural basis for the emotionalism that surrounds the abortion issue. She is faced with the moral dilemna of both the baby and herself or taking on the guilt that others think she should have for aborting the baby. How is that for a choice when you are still in your teens?

My heart cries for her and her position.
I respect you Miracle_Storm and I know we see eye to eye on other issues we have been involved in debating but in this situation I will debate you on this no-compromise position as being unbiblical.

Sometimes we have to put ourselves in the shoes of another to really be able to discern what God would have us see.

 

[Rebekka]

I've shown you two verses already that speak of the status of an unborn child.

Let's take a look at a few others:

Lev 27:5 And if from five years old to twenty years old, then your judgment shall be of the male twenty shekels, and for the female ten shekels.
6 And if from a month old to five years old, then your judgment shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female your judgment shall be three shekels of silver.

Verse 6, God puts no monetary value on a child of less then 1 month old. And again:

Num 3:14 And the LORD spoke to Moses in the wilderness of Sinai saying,
15 Number the sons of Levi according to their fathers' house, by their families. You shall number them, every male from a month old and upward.A child of less then 1 month old is not counted in a census.

These verses strongly point out that "ensoulment" which is what makes us a human soul, does not happen until a baby is born.


The view of Early Church Fathers and history is also interesting:

St. Augustine (AD 354-430) said, “There cannot yet be said to be a live soul in a body that lacks sensation”, and held that abortion required penance only for the sexual aspect of the sin. He and other early Christian theologians believed, as had Aristotle centuries before, that "animation", or the coming alive of the fetus, occurred forty days after conception for a boy and eighty days after conception for a girl. The conclusion that early abortion is not homicide is contained in the first authoritative collection of canon law accepted by the church in 1140. As this collection was used as an instruction manual for priests until the new Code of Canon Law of 1917, its view of abortion has had great influence.

Off-topic, but these quotes showed something interesting to me. It's typical that for long, women/girls were worth only half as much as men/boys. As a woman, I'm glad that I didn't live in Biblical times - or anything earlier than the mid 20th century.

 

[Miracle Storm]

I've shown you two verses already that speak of the status of an unborn child.

Let's take a look at a few others:

Lev 27:5 And if from five years old to twenty years old, then your judgment shall be of the male twenty shekels, and for the female ten shekels.
6 And if from a month old to five years old, then your judgment shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female your judgment shall be three shekels of silver.

Verse 6, God puts no monetary value on a child of less then 1 month old. And again:

You cannot seriously think that the Lord puts monetary value on a persons life per their age whether One year old or sixty years old or their gender. You are here saying a one month old child has NO Value to the LORD!!!
That is just plain sad that you would even assume something so ridiculous!
I must say in this instance GET REAL!!!

Num 3:14 And the LORD spoke to Moses in the wilderness of Sinai saying,
15 Number the sons of Levi according to their fathers' house, by their families. You shall number them, every male from a month old and upward.A child of less then 1 month old is not counted in a census.

These verses strongly point out that "ensoulment" which is what makes us a human soul, does not happen until a baby is born.

WHERE???!!!

This is how they took a census!
Are you telling me when Jesus was born He had no soul, not until one month of age?!
Are you telling me my children and others had No soul until they were/are one month old?!
If so, Please provide proof for this, because I must admit that this amount of ignorance, if I am interpreting your post right, is absolutely disgusting me!

The view of Early Church Fathers and history is also interesting:

St. Augustine (AD 354-430) said, “There cannot yet be said to be a live soul in a body that lacks sensation”,

Are you telling me babies in utero do not experience "sensation" If so, you need to do much homework. In fact they hear, they feel emotions, they feel pain, they taste.

and held that abortion required penance only for the sexual aspect of the sin. He and other early Christian theologians believed, as had Aristotle centuries before, that "animation", or the coming alive of the fetus, occurred forty days after conception for a boy and eighty days after conception for a girl.

That's really something. So do you believe it takes longer for a girl to be given a soul than a boy. BTW, you did say conception, not birth. Conception is the momment the sperm fertilizes the egg! That would be in the mother's womb.

The conclusion that early abortion is not homicide is contained in the first authoritative collection of canon law accepted by the church in 1140. As this collection was used as an instruction manual for priests until the new Code of Canon Law of 1917, its view of abortion has had great influence.

I didn't see anything there that verified your claim. Let me make it clear...NOTHING.

Please don't think that this means I am Pro-Choice because that couldn't be further from the truth.

Okay.

Children are a blessing as the bible states.[/quote=lionofGod] However I believe the bible shows that the life of the mother is of more value then the unborn fetus and if her life is threatened then the need to abort is clear.

What you believe is what you believe. You do not however have evidence to that only your opinion.
I believe that both the mother and the life God created within are equally loved and of great importance to the Lord!

We are called to follow the Law of love. Should that not extend to the woman who was raped whether through incest or a stranger? The remainder of her life will be affected by the sin of another causing financial hardship, lost opportunities and the constant reminder of the humiliation she had to suffer.

God can bring greatness out of tragedy. A child being one of those blessings. A woman does not have to suffer finacial hardship she may give the child to one who is more than willing to care for God's creation.

There is a young girl on these boards who has been raped and is now pregnant. She has been clearly told by doctors that if the baby is not aborted she will likely die as a result because of a medical condition she has. That will result in the babies death as well as her own. It is easy for us to stand in judgement of another even when there is no scriptural basis for the emotionalism that surrounds the abortion issue. She is faced with the moral dilemna of both the baby and herself or taking on the guilt that others think she should have for aborting the baby. How is that for a choice when you are still in your teens?

I was pregnant at 14 with toxemia and came very close to death. I now have a wonderful 13 year old son.

My heart cries for her and her position.
I respect you Miracle_Storm and I know we see eye to eye on other issues we have been involved in debating but in this situation I will debate you on this no-compromise position as being unbiblical.

My heart goes out for her as well and her position. I hope she will place her trust in the Lord. I will lift up prayers for this young one.
You have not proven any Scriptural basis for your so called claims of fact.

Sometimes we have to put ourselves in the shoes of another to really be able to discern what God would have us see.

Don't ever presume to know what SHOES I have walked in.

 

[LoG]

You cannot seriously think that the Lord puts monetary value on a persons life per their age whether One year old or sixty years old or their gender. You are here saying a one month old child has NO Value to the LORD!!!
That is just plain sad that you would even assume something so ridiculous!
I must say in this instance GET REAL!!!

Excuse me but I gave you not my opinion but the verse in the bible. React all you want but it is still there in black and white.

Are you telling me babies in utero do not experience "sensation" If so, you need to do much homework. In fact they hear, they feel emotions, they feel pain, they taste.
That's really something. So do you believe it takes longer for a girl to be given a soul than a boy. BTW, you did say conception, not birth. Conception is the momment the sperm fertilizes the egg! That would be in the mother's womb. I didn't see anything there that verified your claim. Let me make it clear...NOTHING.
Okay.What you believe is what you believe. You do not however have evidence to that only your opinion.

Are you not seeing the verses or quotes from Augustine?
What are you basing your opinions on? Many living organisms experience pain but that doesn't make them a human soul. You can be as disgusted as you want to be but the bible shows that the death of an unborn baby is not murder or the penalty for causing it would be the same.

You have not proven any Scriptural basis for your so called claims of fact.

None that you are willing to acknowledge even when they are there.

I was pregnant at 14 with toxemia and came very close to death. I now have a wonderful 13 year old son.

Don't ever presume to know what SHOES I have walked in.

Great to hear that it worked out for you. Was it recommended to you to abort the baby? Did you seek out God's will for you final decision? If you did was His answer to you supposed to be binding on everyone else? Why are you coming across as being so angry and condemning when God was so merciful to you in your situation?

Calling something "murder" without scriptural support makes it your opinion and not God's.

 

[MissLady]

If unborn babies aren't LIVING SOULS, then explain why John leaped in Mary's womb when Elisabeth found out Mary was pregnant with Jesus. Oh yeah that was a working of the Holy Spirit! But wait...why would the Holy Spirit work through something that was NOT a living HUMAN SOUL?.

 

[StTherese]

Sometimes we have to put ourselves in the shoes of another to really be able to discern what God would have us see.

How about putting yourself in the position of the unborn child?

 

[RCCdefender]

Actually a raped woman is likely to have peaceful feelings when she looks back on the abortion she got because she realizes that she no longer had to carry around her "punishment" any longer.

Wow. a punishment. is it the childs fault or the rapist. the child should not have to suffer.

 

[RCCdefender]

From the didache.

Chapter 2. The Second Commandment: Grave Sin Forbidden. And the second commandment of the Teaching; You shall not commit murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not commit pederasty, you shall not commit fornication, you shall not steal, you shall not practice magic, you shall not practice witchcraft, you shall not murder a child by abortion nor kill that which is born.

Source:http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-roberts.html

 

[Miracle Storm]

Excuse me but I gave you not my opinion but the verse in the bible. React all you want but it is still there in black and white.

No sir, with all due respect, it is not.
Only your version of it.

Are you not seeing the verses or quotes from Augustine?

Yes sir I did, nothing supported your position.

What are you basing your opinions on? Many living organisms experience pain but that doesn't make them a human soul.

What an argument. I suggest you go take a look at some of these murdered humans that you suggest have no soul.

You can be as disgusted as you want to be but the bible shows that the death of an unborn baby is not murder or the penalty for causing it would be the same.

Proof? Or more of your opinons? '
Round and round we go where we stop nobody knows........you are simply wrong and have NO proof to back up your claims.

None that you are willing to acknowledge even when they are there.

You are missing the entire point. I can't acknowledge something that is not there to begin with. I acknowledge your opinion, one with which I adamantly disagree with.

Great to hear that it worked out for you. Was it recommended to you to abort the baby?

I would not go to a doctor that would recommend murder. But from the very get go I was labled "high risk"

Did you seek out God's will for you final decision?

I always seek God's will in my life, there wasn't much seeking to do in this situation because I know what life is.
I would suggest you do some research..maybe even look at some pictures and read how each type of abortion is done.
Most mother's I would say do not know what happens or what the remains of her baby look like...

My 13 year old son is a testimony to what God can and will do. He is a miracle. He is a blessing! He is God's creation who God foreknew.

If you did was His answer to you supposed to be binding on everyone else?

I think His answer is the same to everyone who is facing this decision that is allowed to be a decision ONLY because God gives us free will. That includes a freewill to sin, even if some sin is committed in ignorance.

Why are you coming across as being so angry and condemning when God was so merciful to you in your situation?

How did I do that log? I said I cared for this young women and she would be in my prayers. Is it because I am disagreeing with you that you percieve me to be speaking in anger or condemnation, when if fact I am not.
The act of abortion is what I condemn and yes it does anger me deeply.

Calling something "murder" without scriptural support makes it your opinion and not God's.

All you need do is know what life is to know what murder is. You have absolutely NO Scriptural proof to say that a baby in utero is not alive or without a soul.

Let me also set the record straight for you.
You come across with these Scriptures that you say are supporting your beliefs when if fact they do not at the same token you INSULT so many at a much deeper level than you are probably even aware.

You say human lives have a price value over them, depending on age, gender, ect.. that is your interpretation anyways....if not please feel free to elaborate.
You have also stated a human being is souless until one month after birth, is that right?

You also attribute taking the first breath of oxygen being the time that someone is given a soul. That would be within minutes of birth.

Also from what you have posted you believe it takes longer for a girl to gain a soul than a boy?! :o

Do you see how your statements and interpretations contradict each other? I sure hope so.

Not only that what do you say to a mother that has carried her baby to full term, but delivers a stillborn? Takes her final pictures with her lifeless babe... Do you spit in her face and inform her that her child never had a soul. God destined her to carry human life in her womb, but oops maybe He just forgot to give her baby a soul?
That would be a load of bull! Well sir, it seems you are saying that here. You are saying a child doesn't recieve a soul without a breath.
The baby does recieve oxygen, God made sure His creations were fully taken care of.

You are right on one point though. God did breath the breath of life into Adam.
Did Eve have God breath into her nostrils? Nope she was made from Adam's rib, correct?
Therefore their decendents would also breath the life that God first put into Adam.

When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God. 2 He created them male and female and blessed them. And when they were created, he called them "man. [a] "
3 When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth. 4

...and so it continues each child being created in their parents likeness. Just as Adam the first man was created in the likeness of God.

5 And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each man, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man.

6 "Whoever sheds the blood of man,
by man shall his blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made man. 7 As for you, be fruitful and increase in number; multiply on the earth and increase upon it."

Did you know a child in the wombs lifeblood is seperate from his/her mothers?

 

[LoG]

How about putting yourself in the position of the unborn child?

As long as the unborn child is not threatening the life of the mother. It appears that it is only in modern times that the fetus takes precedence over the importance of the mothers well-being.
Judaic laws allowed for the aborting of a child if it was deemed to be a threat to the mother. It amounted to being an act of self-defence.

From the didache.

Chapter 2. The Second Commandment: Grave Sin Forbidden. And the second commandment of the Teaching; You shall not commit murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not commit pederasty, you shall not commit fornication, you shall not steal, you shall not practice magic, you shall not practice witchcraft, you shall not murder a child by abortion nor kill that which is born.

Source:http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-roberts.html

That was the position the Church took for the first few hundred years but after Augustine it appears to have shifted to abortions being allowable in the first 40-80 days based on the [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Aristotelian concept of "delayed ensoulment.

Some significant rulings in history were:

[/FONT][FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Starting in the 7th century CE, a series of penitentials were written in the West. These listed an array of sins, with the penance that a person must observe as punishment for the sin. [/FONT]
An abortion required only 120 days of penance.

The conclusion that early abortion is not homicide is contained in the first authoritative collection of canon law accepted by the church in 1140. This collection was used as an instruction manual for priests until the new Code of Canon Law of 1917.


[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Pope Innocent III (?-1216) wrote a letter which ruled on a case of a Carthusian monk who had arranged for his female lover to obtain an abortion. The Pope decided that the monk was not guilty of homicide if the fetus was not "animated."[/FONT]


[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Early in the 13th century, Pope Innocent III stated that the soul enters the body of the fetus at the time of "quickening" - when the woman first feels movement of the fetus. After ensoulment, abortion was equated with murder; before that time, it was a less serious sin, because it terminated only potential human life, not human life.[/FONT]



[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Pope Sixtus V issued a Papal bull "Effraenatam" in 1588 which threatened those who carried out abortions at any stage of gestation with excommunication and the death penalty.
[/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Pope Gregory XIV revoked the Papal bull shortly after taking office in 1591. He reinstated the "quickening" test, which he said happened 116 days into pregnancy (16½ weeks). [/FONT]His declaration in 1591 that early abortion was not grounds for excommunication continued to be the abortion policy of the Catholic Church until 1869.


In 1869, Pope Pius IX officially eliminated the Catholic distinction between an animated and a nonanimated fetus and required excommunication for abortions at any stage of pregnancy.


Historically the Church has flip-flopped on the abortion issue and even the Protestants have differing rulings depending on time and denomination.

 

[StTherese]

As long as the unborn child is not threatening the life of the mother. It appears that it is only in modern times that the fetus takes precedence over the importance of the mothers well-being.
Judaic laws allowed for the aborting of a child if it was deemed to be a threat to the mother. It amounted to being an act of self-defence.



That was the position the Church took for the first few hundred years but after Augustine it appears to have shifted to abortions being allowable in the first 40-80 days based on the [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Aristotelian concept of "delayed ensoulment. [/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Some significant rulings in history were:[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Starting in the 7th century CE, a series of penitentials were written in the West. These listed an array of sins, with the penance that a person must observe as punishment for the sin. [/FONT]
An abortion required only 120 days of penance.

The conclusion that early abortion is not homicide is contained in the first authoritative collection of canon law accepted by the church in 1140. This collection was used as an instruction manual for priests until the new Code of Canon Law of 1917.


[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Pope Innocent III (?-1216) wrote a letter which ruled on a case of a Carthusian monk who had arranged for his female lover to obtain an abortion. The Pope decided that the monk was not guilty of homicide if the fetus was not "animated."[/FONT]


[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Early in the 13th century, Pope Innocent III stated that the soul enters the body of the fetus at the time of "quickening" - when the woman first feels movement of the fetus. After ensoulment, abortion was equated with murder; before that time, it was a less serious sin, because it terminated only potential human life, not human life.[/FONT]



[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Pope Sixtus V issued a Papal bull "Effraenatam" in 1588 which threatened those who carried out abortions at any stage of gestation with excommunication and the death penalty. [/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Pope Gregory XIV revoked the Papal bull shortly after taking office in 1591. He reinstated the "quickening" test, which he said happened 116 days into pregnancy (16½ weeks). [/FONT]His declaration in 1591 that early abortion was not grounds for excommunication continued to be the abortion policy of the Catholic Church until 1869.


In 1869, Pope Pius IX officially eliminated the Catholic distinction between an animated and a nonanimated fetus and required excommunication for abortions at any stage of pregnancy.


Historically the Church has flip-flopped on the abortion issue and even the Protestants have differing rulings depending on time and denomination.

Just because the punishment for the crime (sin) of abortion changed under Pope Gregory xiv doesn't mean the Church's stance on the sinfulness of it did.

The Church has always condemned the act of abortion.

http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?Pgnu=1&Pg=Forum10&recnu=5&number=450638

http://www.catholic-ew.org.uk/faith/living/abortion.htm


EARLY COUNCILS

87. The early councils of the Church, consisting of gatherings of local bishops, enacted legislation against abortion. The Council of Elvira, (305 A.D.) is generally thought of as the first council to do so. This Spanish council held that a woman who aborted a child, even though it may have been conceived in adultery, was not to be given communion even at the end of her life (28). The Council of Ancyra (314 A.D.), the first Eastern council to legislate against abortion, states, in canon 21 that "women who prostitute themselves, and who kill the children thus begotten, or who try to destroy them in their womb, are by ancient law excommunicated to the end of their lives. We, however, have lessened their punishment and condemn them to the various appointed degrees of penance for ten years" (29). The Council of Ancyra stipulated a lesser period of penance but clearly extended punishment to the killing of any child in the womb (not only adulterine offspring). This conciliar rule was apparently recognized and ratified, at least in a general sense, by the Ecumenical Council of Chalcedon (450 A.D.) (30).


88. The Three Canonical Letters of St. Basil the Great (379) were often cited in the early councils of the Church, especially those of the East. St. Basil notes that "a woman who deliberately destroys a fetus is answerable for murder. And any fine distinction as to its being completely formed or unformed is not admissible amongst us." St. Basil is referring to the opinion held by some that a fetus is not fully a human being until it reaches a certain state as Aristotle had proposed centuries before (31). At this time in history, the scientific understanding of human reproduction was extremely limited, and it was held by some that the soul is not infused into the forming embryo until it reaches an advanced stage of development. However, this "fine distinction" was used by some not to condone abortion, but to lessen the penalty in the case where the child was "unformed". The Council of Lerida Spain (524 A.D.) affixed penalties to persons who tried to kill the unborn child in the womb of the mother.


89. The various collection of synodal legislation up to the 12th century generally listed the references mentioned above against abortion. The original positions were repeated over and over again with some additions, and they reappeared in disciplinary compilations in all parts of the Christian world.


90. It was not until the 11th century, when Ivo of Chartres (1093) included certain statements of the Fathers relative to an interpretation of Exodus 21:22-23 into his collection of legal decrees, that the problem of whether the fetus was formed or non-formed was introduced into Church legislation with respect to the severity of Church penalties for abortion (32). Yet, in all the debate about whether the fetus was formed (animated) or non-formed (non-animated), the condemnation of abortion was constant.


91. John Gratian, a Camaldolese monk, in his DECRETUM GRATIANI or CONCORDANCE OF DISCORDANT CANONS (1140), a private collection of church laws, following Ivo of Chartres, offers his opinion that abortion is not murder if the soul has not been infused into the fetus (non-animated) (33). That is, he accepted this distinction as the basis for different kinds of penalties to be applied in the case of abortion. To kill a fetus which was "animated" meant a harsher penalty in law. Yet, Gratian does not indicate the time of animation. Early commentators on Gratian's work maintain consistently that one who commits abortion is guilty of serious sin. The theory of a fetus being formed or nonformed or "animated" or "nonanimated" was used in the canonical writings to make clear that when the human soul was present, abortion can be reckoned as murder and the penalties for homicide can be applied. For clerics who brought about an abortion, there was also an irregularity imposed which deprived them of their office and use of their sacramental powers, if they were priests.


92. The Decretals of Pope Gregory IX, the first collection of church laws promulgated with papal authority for the universal church in 1324, list one canon which designates as a "murderer" one who causes an abortion (34). The decretals kept the notion of "formed" and "nonformed" to determine the kinds of penalties to be applied for this crime.


93. During the 13th and succeeding centuries the particular councils of the Church strongly condemned abortion. The Synod of Riez (1234), for example, penalized both abortion and murder with an excommunication to be incurred IPSO FACTO, absolution from which was reserved to the Holy See. The excommunication was incurred by all who knowingly cooperated by assisting, advising, or suggesting, by selling, or otherwise providing deadly drugs to effect the abortion or the murder (35). Many councils either adopted this norm from Riez or issued similar norms (36).


94. The first significant papal legislation, issued MOTU PROPRIO to invoke penal sanctions against abortion was the Constitution "EFFRAENATAM" of Pope Sixtus V (1585-90) of October 29, 1588. This constitution listed severe penalties against the crime of abortion of an unborn child without any reference at all being made to the distinction of whether the fetus was animated or nonanimated. Pope Gregory XIV in his Constitution "SEDES APOSTOLICAE" (1591) slightly altered the constitution of Sixtus V to apply the harsh penalties only to those cases which involved the abortion of an animated fetus. However, his constitution still taught the grave seriousness of the offense of any abortion.


95. Pope Pius IX, on October 12, 1869, by his Constitution "APOSTOLICAE SEDES", reorganized penal legislation, including that concerning abortion. Overturning the legislation of Pope Gregory XIV and returning to the policy of Pope Sixtus V, he did away with the old rule of "animated" or "non-animated" and made it clear that any abortion of an unborn child is murder and anyone who culpably commits this crime is subject to automatic excommunication reserved to the local bishop.


96. In 1917, Pope Benedict XV promulgated the Code of Canon Law for the Roman Rite of the Catholic Church. The Code states that those who effectively procure an abortion, the mother not excluded, incur an automatic excommunication reserved to the ordinary (canon 2350.2). The 1983 Revised Code of Canon Law, promulgated by Pope John Paul II, states in canon 1398 that those who successfully procure an abortion incur an automatic excommunication, absolution from which penalty is not reserved to anyone, unless it has been formally "declared" by the local bishop.


Read more here:

http://www.priestsforlife.org/magisterium/gracida.htm

 

[Elife3]

I believe if the pregnancy puts the mother's life in danger (e.g. tubal pregnancy), then abortion is acceptable because there IS a cause for that murder. As for, "Thou shalt not kill", kill meant when it was written, "to murder without cause."

 

[Apollo Celestio]

I cannot agree with killing unborn children. As someone who used to be a fetus, I think the Lord allows those in that state the right to live, and nobody should be able to deny them that right.

 

[Epiphoskei]

I believe if the pregnancy puts the mother's life in danger (e.g. tubal pregnancy), then abortion is acceptable because there IS a cause for that murder. As for, "Thou shalt not kill", kill meant when it was written, "to murder without cause."

However...
There is no reason to ban any abortion at all unless the fetus is a human being in the sight of God.
If the fetus is a human being, he or she has equal right to life with everyone else in the human race - including the mother!
So, how do you choose who lives and who dies? Typical rules of ethics in medicine say you don't get to kill one person to save another.

 

[Suomipoika]

They must have their life terminated because of the sins of another?

Or... they 'must' have their life continued in a new, celestial resurrection body with their Heavenly Father for eternity?

 

[Suomipoika]

Off-topic, but these quotes showed something interesting to me. It's typical that for long, women/girls were worth only half as much as men/boys. As a woman, I'm glad that I didn't live in Biblical times - or anything earlier than the mid 20th century.

This 'cultural' perspective still doesn't change the fact that these things are recorded in the Bible as "God's ordinances", and thus could have relevance to our present-day discussions, when examined in their proper contexts.

But still, I have to say that I wouldn't count on Augustine as being some kind of normative authority in these issues, either..

 

[Epiphoskei]

Or... they 'must' have their life continued in a new, celestial resurrection body with their Heavenly Father for eternity?

That assumes that aborted infants go to heaven. That's a popular view, and to say otherwise is usually interpreted as mean or heartless, however the scripture is fairly silent, and no verse said to argue one way or another is totally unambiguous.

On the one hand, if they are saved, we must maintain they are still saved only on account of grace, not because they "didn't have a chance" as many put it.
On the other hand, if they are saved, isn't it fair to say that abortion is the most sucessful evangelistic activity on the planet right now? That one doesn't sit well with me.