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When is abortion acceptable?

When is abortion acceptable

  • When the mother's life is in danger

  • When the pregnancy is a result of rape, incest, or molestation

  • Abortion is never acceptable

  • Abortion is always acceptable


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Jedi

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StTherese said:
Even though He was stressed about it, it didn't stop Him from doing the will of the Father. To value our earthly lives is fine, but not when it contradicts the will of God.

Granted, but we’ve already been over this. From what basis do you assert that valuing our lives to the point of defending it against a threatening agent is contrary to the will of God if the only means of defense is terminating the threatening agent?

Jesus' suffering lead to His death. I am not sure what you mean...???

We’re not talking about Jesus’ unique circumstance by which His suffering brought redemption to the world. That was a one-time event and cannot be applied to all the suffering of humans. Simply because there was redemption in Christ’s death does not mean there is redemption in all deaths (or misery). People who suffer and die cross the threshold of redemption. They’re dead. They aren’t coming back. Any redemption that could possibly take place will take place at the resurrection – something not brought about by that person’s death/suffering and would have taken place regardless.

Long story short, suffering is not always redemptive. If this is so, then there is no sense in trying to justify prolonging someone’s suffering instead of saving the life of a healthy person for the reason of wanting to promote suffering and hope that it might lead to redemption.

It is kind of long, but I think it will help answer your question!

It’s exceedingly long. Paraphrase it for me. :)
 
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StTherese

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Granted, but we’ve already been over this. From what basis do you assert that valuing our lives to the point of defending it against a threatening agent is contrary to the will of God if the only means of defense is terminating the threatening agent?



We’re not talking about Jesus’ unique circumstance by which His suffering brought redemption to the world. That was a one-time event and cannot be applied to all the suffering of humans. Simply because there was redemption in Christ’s death does not mean there is redemption in all deaths (or misery). People who suffer and die cross the threshold of redemption. They’re dead. They aren’t coming back. Any redemption that could possibly take place will take place at the resurrection – something not brought about by that person’s death/suffering and would have taken place regardless.

Long story short, suffering is not always redemptive. If this is so, then there is no sense in trying to justify prolonging someone’s suffering instead of saving the life of a healthy person for the reason of wanting to promote suffering and hope that it might lead to redemption.



It’s exceedingly long. Paraphrase it for me. :)
....CONCLUSION
31. This is the meaning of suffering, which is truly supernatural and at the same time human. It is supernatural because it is rooted in the divine mystery of the Redemption of the world, and it is likewise deeply human, because in it the person discovers himself, his own humanity, his own dignity, his own mission.
Suffering is certainly part of the mystery of man. Perhaps suffering is not wrapped up as much as man is by this mystery, which is an especially impenetrable one. The Second Vatican Council expressed this truth that "...only in the mystery of the Incarnate Word does the mystery of man take on light. In fact..., Christ, the final Adam, by the revelation of the mystery of the Father and his love, fully reveals man to himself and makes his supreme calling clear"(100). If these words refer to everything that concerns the mystery of man, then they certainly refer in a very special way to human suffering. Precisely at this point the "revealing of man to himself and making his supreme vocation clear" is particularly indispensable. It also happens as experience proves—that this can be particularly dramatic. But when it is completely accomplished and becomes the light of human life, it is particularly blessed. "Through Christ and in Christ, the riddles of sorrow and death grow meaningful"(101).



Christ did not conceal from his listeners the need for suffering. He said very clearly: "If any man would come after me... let him take up his cross daily ''(81), and before his disciples he placed demands of a moral nature that can only be fulfilled on condition that they should "deny themselves"(82). The way that leads to the Kingdom of heaven is "hard and narrow", and Christ contrasts it to the "wide and easy" way that "leads to destruction"(83). On various occasions Christ also said that his disciples and confessors would meet with much persecution, something which—as we know—happened not only in the first centuries of the Church's life under the Roman Empire, but also came true in various historical periods and in other parts of the world, and still does even in our own time.

I would really recommend you read the whole thing!:)
 
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StTherese

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Granted, but we’ve already been over this. From what basis do you assert that valuing our lives to the point of defending it against a threatening agent is contrary to the will of God if the only means of defense is terminating the threatening agent?

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01046b.htm

Intentional abortions are distinguished by medical writers into two classes.
  • When they are brought about for social reasons, they are called criminal abortions; and they are rightly condemned under any circumstances whatsoever. "Often, very often," said Dr. Hodge, of the University of Pennsylvania, "must all the eloquence and all the authority of the practitioner be employed; often he must, as it were, grasp the conscience of his weak and erring patient, and let her know, in language not to be misunderstood, that she is responsible to the Creator for the life of the being within her" (Wharton and Stille's Med. Jurispr., Vol. on Abortion, 11).
  • The name of obstetrical abortion is given by physicians to such as is performed to save the life of the mother. Whether this practice is ever morally lawful we shall consider below.
It is evident that the determination of what is right or wrong in human conduct belongs to the science of ethics and the teaching of religious authority. Both of these declare the Divine law, "Thou shalt not kill". The embryonic child, as seen above, has a human soul; and therefore is a man from the time of its conception; therefore it has an equal right to its life with its mother; therefore neither the mother, nor medical practitioner, nor any human being whatever can lawfully take that life away. The State cannot give such right to the physician; for it has not itself the right to put an innocent person to death. No matter how desirable it might seem to be at times to save the life of the mother, common sense teaches and all nations accept the maxim, that "evil is never to be done that good may come of it"; or, which is the same thing, that "a good end cannot justify a bad means". Now it is an evil means to destroy the life of an innocent child. The plea cannot be made that the child is an unjust aggressor. It is simply where nature and its own parents have put it. Therefore, Natural Law forbids any attempt at destroying fetal life. The teachings of the Catholic Church admit of no doubt on the subject. Such moral questions, when they are submitted, are decided by the Tribunal of the Holy Office. Now this authority decreed, 28 May, 1884, and again, 18 August, 1889, that "it cannot be safely taught in Catholic schools that it is lawful to perform . . . any surgical operation which is directly destructive of the life of the fetus or the mother." Abortion was condemned by name, 24 July, 1895, in answer to the question whether when the mother is in immediate danger of death and there is no other means of saving her life, a physician can with a safe conscience cause abortion not by destroying the child in the womb (which was explicitly condemned in the former decree), but by giving it a chance to be born alive, though not being yet viable, it would soon expire. The answer was that he cannot. After these and other similar decisions had been given, some moralists thought they saw reasons to doubt whether an exception might not be allowed in the case of ectopic gestations. Therefore the question was submitted: "Is it ever allowed to extract from the body of the mother ectopic embryos still immature, before the sixth month after conception is completed?" The answer given, 20 March, 1902, was: "No; according to the decree of 4 May, 1898; according to which, as far as possible, earnest and opportune provision is to be made to safeguard the life of the child and of the mother. As to the time, let the questioner remember that no acceleration of birth is licit unless it be done at a time, and in ways in which, according to the usual course of things, the life of the mother and the child be provided for". Ethics, then, and the Church agree in teaching that no action is lawful which directly destroys fetal life. It is also clear that extracting the living fetus before it is viable, is destroying its life as directly as it would be killing a grown man directly to plunge him into a medium in which he cannot live, and hold him there till he expires.


However, if medical treatment or surgical operation, necessary to save a mother's life, is applied to her organism (though the child's death would, or at least might, follow as a regretted but unavoidable consequence), it should not be maintained that the fetal life is thereby directly attacked. Moralists agree that we are not always prohibited from doing what is lawful in itself, though evil consequences may follow which we do not desire. The good effects of our acts are then directly intended, and the regretted evil consequences are reluctantly permitted to follow because we cannot avoid them. The evil thus permitted is said to be indirectly intended. It is not imputed to us provided four conditions are verified, namely:
  • That we do not wish the evil effects, but make all reasonable efforts to avoid them;
  • That the immediate effect be good in itself;
  • That the evil is not made a means to obtain the good effect; for this would be to do evil that good might come of it -- a procedure never allowed;
  • That the good effect be as important at least as the evil effect.
All four conditions may be verified in treating or operating on a woman with child. The death of the child is not intended, and every reasonable precaution is taken to save its life; the immediate effect intended, the mother's life, is good -- no harm is done to the child in order to save the mother -- the saving of the mother's life is in itself as good as the saving of the child's life. Of course provision must be made for the child's spiritual as well as for its physical life, and if by the treatment or operation in question the child were to be deprived of Baptism, which it could receive if the operation were not performed, then the evil would be greater than the good consequences of the operation. In this case the operation could not lawfully be performed. Whenever it is possible to baptize an embryonic child before it expires, Christian charity requires that it be done, either before or after delivery; and it may be done by any one, even though he be not a Christian.
 
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Hadassah

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Oy vey!
I read through 15 pages of this, and couldn't stay quiet any longer


I voted never because I have not found a situation where a mother's life is in real jeopordy where the child cannot be removed from the mother and have a chance to live in the infant intensive care unit.

Maybe someone else has found a situation, but so far I haven't.

Recently our local TV news anchorwoman got pregnant just as she learned that she has near terminal cancer. The doctors told her to abort as the child would be growing next to the cancer which means that they could not do anything to help her.

She refused, went through some chemo. and had her baby a month and a half early. About 4 months later, the woman died after the doctors told her that they were confident that she would recover from the cancer.

They now say that she had a good chance of dying no matter what her choice was. I am just glad she didn't take the baby with her to the end.

I had a coworker who I took over her job for her entire pregnancy (in addition to learning what my job would be after) who had breast cancer.

I am unsure exactly how they treated her, but I remember that the cancer did not advance as much as she carried her son, than it did after her son was born.

Her son is two years old and has not had any complications - a beautiful child.

She has completed chemo and other treatments and is in remission.


I voted for only if the life of the mother is in danger. While I empathize with the victims of rape, incest, and molestation, I don't consider the mother's trauma from that incident to be a just reason to end the life of the child, who has done nothing to deserve his or her death. I don't consider mothers who get abortions for such reasons to be in the right, but neither do I judge them or declare them murderers. They're faced with a difficult decision while already under enormous mental and emotional stress. I simply feel they choose unwisely, understandable though their choice may be.

I agree wholeheartedly.

Never? Why never? ...Also consider the mother discovers she has a rare heart condition after she is pregnant. The stress of birth will likely kill the mother and possibly the child. Are we to kill two people by refusing to act or one person by acting?

My sister is such a person actually. Her heart is somewhat weak and her chest is concave, but the OBGYNs that she has seen have all cleared her, IF she can become pregnant. She is 21 and post menopausal due to late diagnosis of Celiac Disease.

I am on the other end of the spectrum with endometriosis and late diagnosis of C.D.

While it is a "gut" disease, it affects how one digests the nutrients and vitamins that carry to other parts of the body and sustain it. One of the first things to go is one's immune system, followed by reproductive sytem..

I cannot tell you of the tears she has cried since diagnosed at 15 of the possibility she may never hold her own child.

She cries because of women who have that ability readily available and they just throw it away, because they do not want a child ''at this time''.

On the other hand, I have had friends and fellow people I have worshipped with in the past who had 'life threatening illness' to come on whilst pregnant (Pre-eclampsia) and they were able with help of doctors to carry their child to term with no further complications to either of them.

I have had others who did have heart conditions or diabetes, and doctors were able to assist them either. The pregnancies were not without their difficulties (and some had to have earlier C-sections), but the lives were welcomed into this world with open arms from everyone.

...this statement is chilling...I'm sure it's meant well, but it sounds like the road in early 1940's Germany.... others with more power deciding on whom is worthy of living....its an insidious mentality that creeps in and along into society, even the church, like trailing vines of poison ivy

Actually, it started in the 30s, but it was mainly in Austria at the time and crept over about 1938 into Germany...

It is no less chilling, nor the tales of forced abortions, because the father was Jewish, or because the mother was. :(


I've met people before who were conceived as a result of rape or incest or whose mothers life was endangered during their birth. They all are wonderful people and I wouldn't wish for any of them to have been aborted.

Agreed. I have also met people of similar situation... and I quite agree

I have also considered the rape and incest factor, as this is something that has directly affected my own family, and I still vote no. I am happy for *all* the family members I have, no matter how they came into the family.

I have also considered the implications of "what if it were you?" and after much wrestling with it, I have come to the conclusions I would not seek an abortion.

I have also asked my husband in the 7 years we were together prior to marriage, and he said he also agrees, and if something came to that point, he would always raise the child as his own.

Hopefully, without further fanning the flame, I have explained my reasons for voting 'no', though I have not used Scripture to explain all of my reasoning. (That would take all of Scripture, and we don't have that kind of time on this earth ;))
 
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