When is abortion acceptable?

[die2live]

The links for your sources are specifically pro choice. I don't see why I would feel any more compelled to believe them than you would to believe mine.

And I don't really see why you asked for sources if you're automatically ruling them out because they are pro life. Of course they are pro life! There is really very little neutral ground in the abortion debate. An organization or a website will either be pro life or pro choice, so I guess they would be tainted either way. You can't rule out my sources simply because they are pro life just like I can't rule out yours simply because they are pro choice.

And you did not consider my personal experice either. I have watched women break down into tears becasue of their past abortions. It's not uncommon. The reason why I distrust the pro choice statistics that say PASS is not real is because I have seen with my own eyes that it is real and it is not rare at all.

 

[Ave Maria]

The links for your sources are specifically pro choice. I don't see why I would feel any more compelled to believe them than you would to believe mine.

And I don't really see why you asked for sources if you're automatically ruling them out because they are pro life. Of course they are pro life! There is really very little neutral ground in the abortion debate. An organization or a website will either be pro life or pro choice, so I guess they would be tainted either way. You can't rule out my sources simply because they are pro life just like I can't rule out yours simply because they are pro choice.

And you did not consider my personal experice either. I have watched women break down into tears becasue of their past abortions. It's not uncommon. The reason why I distrust the pro choice statistics that say PASS is not real is because I have seen with my own eyes that it is real and it is not rare at all.

Nobody ever said that no women experience negative emotions after an abortion. I know that some women experience negative emotions after abortion. However, the fact remains that they are a minority.

Also, I don't trust your websites because I know that pro-life websites often lie and twist the truth to try and gain converts. That is why I refuse to trust them. So unless you can come up with a more neutral source, don't expect me to believe you.

As for my websites, it has never been shown that pro-choice websites lie or twist the truth so you should trust them. Come up with just one example of a pro-choice website lying or twisting the truth and I'll revoke this opinion.

The fact is that a woman should have the right to have an abortion throughout her entire pregnancy and for any reason. It is wrong to deny women this right.

 

[TankGirl]

The fact is that a woman should have the right to have an abortion throughout her entire pregnancy and for any reason. It is wrong to deny women this right.

I'm sorry, but you are stating as FACT something which is clearly an opinion. You have obviously come to this conclusion yourself, but what are you basing it on? I am assuming you have a huge wealth of evidence and proof to make such a bold and extreme claim.

And how does this hold up to scripture? Is life not sacred? The body not a Temple of the Holy Spirit? Is it not wrong to take the life of another in cold blood?

BTW, here are just a couple of links to neutral sites which discuss the emotional & psychological consequences of abortion.

http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/pregnancyandfamily/termination_copingwith.htm
http://www.dipex.org/EXEC

 

[die2live]

Nobody ever said that no women experience negative emotions after an abortion. I know that some women experience negative emotions after abortion. However, the fact remains that they are a minority.

Also, I don't trust your websites because I know that pro-life websites often lie and twist the truth to try and gain converts. That is why I refuse to trust them. So unless you can come up with a more neutral source, don't expect me to believe you.

As for my websites, it has never been shown that pro-choice websites lie or twist the truth so you should trust them. Come up with just one example of a pro-choice website lying or twisting the truth and I'll revoke this opinion.

The fact is that a woman should have the right to have an abortion throughout her entire pregnancy and for any reason. It is wrong to deny women this right.

It is not a fact that women who experience negative emotions are a minority. It's a lie. I have met and counseled many women who have had abortions and none of them have said they did not feel any negative emotions. The vast majority said they had a great deal of negative emotions, enough to make them regret their decision and refuse to ever go through an abortion again. These facts that I have come to know as the truth are supported by studies such as the ones described in the links I supported.

You cannot assume that a site is tainted or lying simply because of its affiliation. The reason I don't trust pro choice websites is not because they are pro choice and automatically bad (in fact, I'm sure at least some, if not a lot, of their facts are true), but in this area at least, I know from personal interaction with women with PASS that they are wrong. You need a better excuse than "they are pro life so they must be twisting the truth" to support your disregard for it's content.

I know in some cases that pro life websites do exaggerate the truth. For example, they tend to overemphasize the physical risks to the woman, even though abortion is a relatively safe procedure for the mother. However, every pro choice website that says PASS is not real and does not affect the majority of women is either lying outright or gravely mistaken (probably because they got all their answers from questionnaires, not real interaction with the women they poll).

And, like I said before, there really is no neutral stance in this argument. Each organization or website either agrees with abortion or they don't. There is no middle ground.

 

[Ave Maria]

I have changed my position. I am now fully pro-life. Abortion is always wrong.

 

[die2live]

Oh. Wow, that's great.

Look, I need to apologize for my previous posts. Although I believe my facts were straight, I was getting a little snappy, and I apologize for that.

Bye.

 

[crinago1172]

Abortion is never acceptable. It is and always be against the Christian doctrine.

 

[StTherese]

Abortion is never acceptable. It is and always [will] be against the Christian doctrine.

Exactly!!!

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]Eternal God, You have revealed Yourself as the Father of all Life. We praise You for the Fatherly care which You extend to all creation, and especially to us, made in Your image and likeness.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]Father, extend Your hand of protection to those threatened by abortion, and save them from its destructive power. Give Your strength to all fathers, that they may never give in to the fears that may tempt them to facilitate abortions.[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]Bless our families and bless our land, that we may have the joy of welcoming and nurturing the life of which You are the source and the Eternal Father. Amen.[/SIZE][/FONT]

 

[Miracle Storm]

Abortion - Never Acceptable

"Do not murder"

 

[Rebekka]

I voted for life of the mother, although I qualify that by saying it is extremely rare with the medicine and advances in obstetric medicine nowdays, for there to be a true situation where in order to save the mothers life, you have to do an actual abortion. Normally with something like eclampsia which is a true obstetric emergency this happens veyr late in preganncy and the baby can then be taken quickly as in ecsection. An emergency csection takes shorter amount of time than doing a late term abortion for any type of actual ob emergency.

In most other cases, such as preeclampsia, the doctors can give medicine and other interventions to stop it. Usually the emergency though is on the baby's side, such as a cord accident, these necessiate also, an ecsection

I didn't vote for "life of mother" exactly because, as you said, it is very rare these days that a mother's life can only be saved through direct abortion. So I voted that abortion is never acceptable. Even in case of ectopic pregnancy it is not a choice between the mother or the child, but between one death or two deaths - the child has no chance of survival anyway, and if no action is taken, the mother will die as well. So there's a choice to save the mother's life or to let them both die. I don't think this qualifies as a regular abortion though. So I'm still completely pro-life.

 

[LoG]

If abortion was murder then the men in:

[FONT=arial,helv]"And if men struggle and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise." [/FONT][FONT=arial,helv]Exodus 21:22-25

should have been stoned to death. Exodus points out that it is a civil matter when a fetus is miscarried. Scripture does not use the term killed or murdered. It actually seems to be a rather small matter when considered from the perspective of the possible consequences. This idea that abortion is murder does not have scriptural foundation.[/FONT]

 

[StTherese]

If abortion was murder then the men in:

[FONT=arial,helv]"And if men struggle and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise." [/FONT][FONT=arial,helv]Exodus 21:22-25 [/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helv]should have been stoned to death. Exodus points out that it is a civil matter when a fetus is miscarried. Scripture does not use the term killed or murdered. It actually seems to be a rather small matter when considered from the perspective of the possible consequences. This idea that abortion is murder does not have scriptural foundation.[/FONT]

Exodus 34:19; All that issues from the womb is mine.

1 Samuel 2:6; Yahweh gives death and life.

Job: 10:8-12; "Your own hands shaped me, modeled me; and would you now have second thoughts, and destroy me? And would you reduce me now to dust? Did you not pour me out like milk, and curdle me the like cheese, clothe me with skin and flesh, and weave me of bone and sinew? And then you endowed me with life, watched each breath of mine with tender care.

Isaiah: 42:5; Thus says God, Yahweh, he who created the heavens and spread them out, who gave shape to the earth and what comes from it, who gave breath to its people and life to the creatures that move in it


Isaiah: 44:24; Thus says Yahweh, your redeemer, he who formed you in the womb: I, myself, Yahweh, made all things, I alone spread out the heavens. When I gave the earth shape, did anyone help me?


Isaiah: 64:8; And yet, Yahweh, you are our Father; we the clay, you the potter, we are all the work of your hand.


Genesis: 6:11; * The earth grew corrupt in God's sight, and filled with violence.


Exodus: 20:13; You shall not kill.


Exodus: 23:7; See that the man who is innocent and just is not done to death, and do not acquit the guilty.


Deuteronomy: 5:17; 'You shall not kill.


Deuteronomy: 21:9; You must banish all shedding of innocent blood from among you if you mean to do what is right in the eyes of Yahweh.


Deuteronomy: 30:19; I set before you life or death, blessing or curse. Choose life, then, so that you and your descendants may live.

 

[Confess]

I voted never because I have not found a situation where a mother's life is in real jeopordy where the child cannot be removed from the mother and have a chance to live in the infant intensive care unit.

Maybe someone else has found a situation, but so far I haven't.

Recently our local TV news anchorwoman got pregnant just as she learned that she has near terminal cancer. The doctors told her to abort as the child would be growing next to the cancer which means that they could not do anything to help her.

She refused, went through some chemo. and had her baby a month and a half early. About 4 months later, the woman died after the doctors told her that they were confident that she would recover from the cancer.

They now say that she had a good chance of dying no matter what her choice was. I am just glad she didn't take the baby with her to the end.

 

[LoG]

Exodus 34:19; All that issues from the womb is mine.

1 Samuel 2:6; Yahweh gives death and life.

Job: 10:8-12; "Your own hands shaped me, modeled me; and would you now have second thoughts, and destroy me? And would you reduce me now to dust? Did you not pour me out like milk, and curdle me the like cheese, clothe me with skin and flesh, and weave me of bone and sinew? And then you endowed me with life, watched each breath of mine with tender care.

Isaiah: 42:5; Thus says God, Yahweh, he who created the heavens and spread them out, who gave shape to the earth and what comes from it, who gave breath to its people and life to the creatures that move in it


Isaiah: 44:24; Thus says Yahweh, your redeemer, he who formed you in the womb: I, myself, Yahweh, made all things, I alone spread out the heavens. When I gave the earth shape, did anyone help me?


Isaiah: 64:8; And yet, Yahweh, you are our Father; we the clay, you the potter, we are all the work of your hand.


Genesis: 6:11; * The earth grew corrupt in God's sight, and filled with violence.


Exodus: 20:13; You shall not kill.


Exodus: 23:7; See that the man who is innocent and just is not done to death, and do not acquit the guilty.


Deuteronomy: 5:17; 'You shall not kill.


Deuteronomy: 21:9; You must banish all shedding of innocent blood from among you if you mean to do what is right in the eyes of Yahweh.


Deuteronomy: 30:19; I set before you life or death, blessing or curse. Choose life, then, so that you and your descendants may live.

All those verses and yet it still remains that the verse in Exodus shows that if the mother is hurt or killed the perpetrator will suffer in kind but if only the fetus is miscarried as a result of the perpetrator's actions it will result only in the recompense of the father as deemed by the judge.

God does not appear to consider the fetus as having the same rights or worthy of the same penalties for its miscarriage, as a human who is outside of the womb.

 

[StTherese]

All those verses and yet it still remains that the verse in Exodus shows that if the mother is hurt or killed the perpetrator will suffer in kind but if only the fetus is miscarried as a result of the perpetrator's actions it will result only in the recompense of the father as deemed by the judge.

God does not appear to consider the fetus as having the same rights or worthy of the same penalties for its miscarriage, as a human who is outside of the womb.

Sorry, but I disagree with your interpretation of it...You are assuming that God does not see a fetus as a human being...

 

[Calliso]

I voted never because I have not found a situation where a mother's life is in real jeopordy where the child cannot be removed from the mother and have a chance to live in the infant intensive care unit.

Maybe someone else has found a situation, but so far I haven't.

Recently our local TV news anchorwoman got pregnant just as she learned that she has near terminal cancer. The doctors told her to abort as the child would be growing next to the cancer which means that they could not do anything to help her.

She refused, went through some chemo. and had her baby a month and a half early. About 4 months later, the woman died after the doctors told her that they were confident that she would recover from the cancer.

They now say that she had a good chance of dying no matter what her choice was. I am just glad she didn't take the baby with her to the end.

Hopefully the chemo didnt hurt the baby....

 

[Confess]

Hopefully the chemo didnt hurt the baby....

No it didn't. The baby is healthy and doing well!

 

[MissLady]

I didn't vote for "life of mother" exactly because, as you said, it is very rare these days that a mother's life can only be saved through direct abortion. So I voted that abortion is never acceptable. Even in case of ectopic pregnancy it is not a choice between the mother or the child, but between one death or two deaths - the child has no chance of survival anyway, and if no action is taken, the mother will die as well. So there's a choice to save the mother's life or to let them both die. I don't think this qualifies as a regular abortion though. So I'm still completely pro-life.

I agree with this. Cept I want to say that I don't like calling myself "pro-life" cause I AM pro-death penalty and I realize the hypocrisy in the statement of "pro-life" in that sense so I call myself "anti-abortion."

Could you ever imagine a woman NOT suffering for 9 months, but perhaps loving her child in spite of the circumstances of it's conception? Maybe even feeling that the child could be a blessing born out of disaster?

I actually had this conversation a little while back with a friend. I pray I never go through something as horrible as rape but honestly I would be glad if a pregnancy resulted from it because at least I would feel SOMETHING good came from the horrible situation. I could not imagine finding ANY good from the evil event other than my dream of being a mother coming true. And I have seen on another website a woman claiming to have gone through both rape and abortion (I don't know if they wre related) and said she was more haunted to this day by the abortion than by the rape. And from all I've seen the body would just respond as if it'd been violated a second time even if the woman consented to the abortion. I just can't imagine putting MYSELF through that let alone an innocent child.

 

[LoG]

Sorry, but I disagree with your interpretation of it...You are assuming that God does not see a fetus as a human being...

If God saw the fetus as a full human being then the penalty would be the same as that for the mother. God clearly states that isn't the case. You can disagree but you aren't doing so from a scriptural perspective but a human one.

I will go one verse further and point out that Adam in:

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

didn't become a "living soul" until after God breathed into him. Until the baby is born and takes it's first breath it is not a living soul.

 

[Miracle Storm]

If God saw the fetus as a full human being then the penalty would be the same as that for the mother. God clearly states that isn't the case. You can disagree but you aren't doing so from a scriptural perspective but a human one.

I will go one verse further and point out that Adam in:

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

didn't become a "living soul" until after God breathed into him. Until the baby is born and takes it's first breath it is not a living soul.

THAT argument is stale friend.

A baby having it's first gasp of air, oxygen within his/her body, when do YOU think that begins?

God has made sure that the baby HE creates inside the mother has every breath he/she needs from the one HE chose to mother the child.

God breathes the breath of life into the baby via the mother.

Oxygen delivered straight to the baby thorugh the placenta.