When I see the blood.

RobertZ

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In reference to Romans 9:21, to be fair, God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked. This verse is expressing that God will have mercy on those who repent. This is demonstrated throughout the Old Testament. Even in the passage of Jeremiah that Paul seems to be relatively quoting, it is speaking that God has proclaimed judgment on nations, but if those nations then repent after God's sentence, He will have mercy and not do what He had planned. But then if after they turn from that, He will then remove the good blessings He had for them.


faceofbear do you ever feel like your walking on eggshells when it comes to your faith in God? I dont mean that in a disrespectful way at all, I just mean that I feel like he is just waiting for me to make that final and last mistake so he can end my life and cast me into the flames of Hell.

I know that sounds horrible but I would rather be open and honest than to try to hide all this stuff deep down inside of me.
 
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christian73

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Now to put that verse in its context so that we can actually understand what our Lord and Master was teaching.

First we must take into account who He was speaking to. He was speaking to a high Jew. Not just a Jew but a Pharisee who was a ruler of the Jews. One who was a teacher and leader. Second we must ask why the Lord said such a thing to this high Jew? It was because this high Jew thought that eternal life came by keeping the law and the ceremonies. Christ simply told him that eternal life comes by faith. He first told this Jew that he must be regenerated, born again, before he could even see the kingdom of God much less enter it. Then He pointed to His being lifted up as the remedy for death by sin pictured in the Brazen Serpent. Then He tells this Jew, who though that God only loved Jews, that God loves more than Jews. That is the context of the passage. The message of the passage isn't what men try to make it to be, free will and universal redemption, but about the amazing love of God. The emphasis is not on the world or whosoever but on God's great love.
Exactly, which implies free will.
 
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christian73

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I wholeheartedly believe in whosoever will. I just don't believe in whosoever won't. Christ told some folks in John 5 that they would not come to Him that they might have life. Later He told them that they cann't come to Him unless the Father draws them. Now as has been mentioned the word draw there is the same word used for a sword being drawn from a scabbard. If you want to call it force then so be it. But it is infinitely loving force. I am so very thankful that God forced me to see my need of His Son and givng me life and faith in Him even against my will. If He hadn't I would still be a reprobate rebel on my way to everlasting destruction. I would still be shaking my fist in the face of the Most High God crying " you have no right to rule over me." If He hadn't lovingly forced me to bow to Him I would be wrathfully forced to bow to Him at the last day. Thanks be to God for forcing me.
God draws men to Him if and only if that person willingly submits himself/herself to God. Jesus knew those people wouldn't do this.
 
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mlqurgw

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Mil, by you saying you don't believe in whosoever won't, are you saying you don't believe people will reject Christ. I'm not trying to twist your words, just trying to understand your point of view.
I am saying that none of those drawn by the Spirit through the preaching of the Gospel will. Those who are left to their own wills won't. They neither desire Christ or see their need of Him.


BTW, you can call me Ron.
 
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mlqurgw

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God draws men to Him if and only if that person willingly submits himself/herself to God. Jesus knew those people wouldn't do this.
All whom God draws are made to see their need of Christ. That is how God draws. A leper who doesn't know he is a leper will never seek to be healed. A sinner, as opposed to someone who sins, who finds out he is a sinner will always run to the only remedy for his sin. The only way a sinner ever finds out he is a sinner is for God to reveal it to him. If Godevr reveals it to him he will trust Christ because he has nowhere else to go.
 
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mlqurgw

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Exactly, which implies free will.
No it doesn't, it implies nothing. It speaks plainly about God's love for sinners. To take form it implications, on either side, is to twist it to make it mean what you wish. John 3:16 is neither a free will verse or an election verse. It is a praise God for His love verse.
 
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christian73, I get the feeling that you aren't even reading what I am writing. You haven't actually responded to anything I have said. If this is going to be fruitful for either of us we both have to at least consider what the other is saying. I have spent many years considering what your position involves and I don't take it lightly.
 
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No it doesn't, it implies nothing. It speaks plainly about God's love for sinners. To take form it implications, on either side, is to twist it to make it mean what you wish. John 3:16 is neither a free will verse or an election verse. It is a praise God for His love verse.
Sure it does. "Whosoever believeth in Him". That means whoever chooses to believes in Him, thus free will. As far as twisting it as one wishes, twisting and interpreting are 2 different things.
 
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christian73

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christian73, I get the feeling that you aren't even reading what I am writing. You haven't actually responded to anything I have said. If this is going to be fruitful for either of us we both have to at least consider what the other is saying. I have spent many years considering what your position involves and I don't take it lightly.
I never said you did, and would never say that.
 
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:D:D:D
 
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faceofbear do you ever feel like your walking on eggshells when it comes to your faith in God? I dont mean that in a disrespectful way at all, I just mean that I feel like he is just waiting for me to make that final and last mistake so he can end my life and cast me into the flames of Hell.

I know that sounds horrible but I would rather be open and honest than to try to hide all this stuff deep down inside of me.

Robert,

I always FEEL like I'm walking on eggshells, yes. However, my feeling isn't what I'm dependent on. I am dependent on Christ's blood. If Christ's blood is insufficient, then I am still in my sins.

I constantly wonder why I God doesn't just kill me. In fact, I'm shocked in certain cases that He hasn't. But it's just greater proof of His patience with us all.

The thing is, Robert, that you feel horrible about your sins, but you feel horrible because you don't have a righteousness of your own. That is, you want to be righteous so you can boast. But we are dependent on Christ, not ourselves. You see, when you and I question why God hasn't killed us, it is because we are dealing with our relationship with God on works, not on Christ. If we see Christ as He is, a propitiation, His blood as our forgiveness, and His crucifixion as our freedom, then we would not feel this way. Well, we may FEEL this way, but we'd know different.

The issue is that we still want a righteousness of our own. Even if you are saved, you still want it. But this is why we need Christ. When we think we need a righteousness, we point to Christ because He died for the unrighteous. When we feel unrighteous we are assured because Christ died for the unrighteous. At both points, it always points to Christ. See, you're reliance is on your own righteousness, not on the blood of Christ which pardons us.

Just ask yourself:
Was Christ delivered over for our sins?
or
Did Christ died for nothing?
and
Are you justified by works?
or
Are you justified by Christs resurrection?
See Romans 4:25

If you believe Romans 4:25, you may not feel saved, but you are. And what do you do with your sin? Well, if you're like me, you know by now that every time you sin it's because you want to. So, just stop. Don't say, "Well I have to wait for God to do something. I have to get rid of my laptop. I have to get filters." Just stop. That's it. Christ freed you through His crucifixion. You are no longer a slave to sin. And remind yourself when you are tempted, "Christ died for me." If you have this in mind, you can certainly use it for licentiousness (I'm not condoning that thought, I'm just stating you might use it as an excuse), but I think it'll produce the opposite result.

Robert, I think, for both of us, we've been saved but we're just skeptical. I mean, honestly, if you're like me, you don't just doubt your own salvation, but everyones.

When you doubt, ask yourself why you're doubting. We doubt because we don't feel righteous. We doubt because we don't appear righteous. But this is why we have to consciously remember, "But I'm not justified by my righteousness, or else Christ died for nothing. However, Christ was delivered to death for my sins, and raised for my justification."

But remember, faith isn't the most important. Love is. We might say, "Well without faith we cannot please God." True. But, though we might emphasize faith as much as we want, the Bible also teaches obedience. It emphasizes faith AND love (which love believes all, not just some -- therefore we please God through love because it consists of faith).
 
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This is a section from a chapter which I've found very beneficial and puts the value of the blood where it belongs - God's valuation of it. It is a section from the first chapter of "The Normal Christian Life" by Chinese writer and teacher Watchman Nee.

“As unbelievers we may have been wholly untroubled by our conscience until the Word of God began to arouse us. Our conscience was dead, and those with dead consciences are certainly of no use to God. But later, when we believed, our awakened conscience may have become acutely sensitive, and this can constitute a real problem to us. The sense of sin and guilt can become so great, so terrible, as almost to cripple us, by causing us to lose sight of the true effectiveness of the Blood. It seems to us that our sins are so real, and some particular sin may trouble us so many times, that we come to the point where to us our sins loom larger than the Blood of Christ.

The whole trouble with us is that we are trying to sense it; we are trying to feel its value and to estimate personally what the Blood is for us. We cannot do that; it doesn’t work that way. The blood is first for God to see. We then have to accept God's value of it. In doing so we shall find our salvation. If instead we try to come to its value by way of our feelings we get nothing; we remain in darkness. No, it is a matter of faith in God's Word. We have to believe that the blood is precious to God because he says it is so. If God can accept the blood as a payment for our sins and as the price of our redemption, then we can rest assured that the debt has been paid. If God is satisfied with the blood, then the blood must be acceptable. Our evaluation of it is only according to his evaluation--neither more nor less. It cannot be more, but it must not be less. Let us remember that He is holy and righteous, and that a holy and righteous God has the right to say that the blood is acceptable in his eyes and has fully satisfied Him.

The blood has satisfied God; but it must satisfy us also. So the second thing that the blood does is to cleanse our conscience. We previously had an evil conscience toward God, which kept us away from him. But the blood of Christ removes that barrier by cleansing our conscience from the guilt of sin... As soon as we find our conscience is uneasy, our faith leaks away, and immediately we know we cannot face God. In order therefore to keep going on with God we must know the up-to-date value of the blood. God keeps short accounts, and we are made nigh by the blood every day, every hour and every minute. It never loses its efficacy as our ground of access if we will but lay hold upon it. When we enter the Most Holy Place (God's presence through prayer), on what ground dare we enter but by the blood?

But am I really seeking the way into the presence of God by the blood or by something else? What do I mean when I say, "by the blood"? I mean simply that I recognize my sins, that I confess that I have need of cleansing and of atonement, and that I come to God on the basis of the finished work of the Lord Jesus. I approach God through his merit alone, and never on the basis of my attainment; never, for example, on the ground that I have been extra kind or patient today, or that I have done something for the Lord this morning. I have to come by way of the blood every time...A clear conscience is never based upon our attainment; it can only be based on the work of the Lord Jesus in the shedding of his blood.

I may be mistaken, but I feel very strongly that some of us are thinking in terms such as these: "Today I have been a little more careful; today I have been doing a little better; this morning I have been reading the Word of God in a warmer way, so today I can pray better"! Or again, "Today I have had a little difficulty with the family; I began the day feeling very gloomy and depressed; I am not feeling too bright now; it seems there must be something wrong; therefore the way is not clear for me to approach God."

What, after all, is your basis of approach to God? Do you come to him on the uncertain ground of your feeling, the feeling that you may have achieved something for God today? Or is your approach based on something far more secure, namely, the fact that the blood has been shed, and that God looks on the blood and is satisfied? Your approach to God is always in boldness; and that boldness is yours through the blood and never through your personal attainment. Whatever your measure of attainment today or yesterday or the day before, as soon as you make a conscious move into the Most Holy Place, immediately you have to take your stand upon the safe and only ground of the shed blood. Whether you have had a good day or a bad day, whether you have consciously sinned or not, your basis of approach is always the same -- the blood of Christ."
 
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RobertZ

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This is a section from a chapter which I've found very beneficial and puts the value of the blood where it belongs - God's valuation of it. It is a section from the first chapter of "The Normal Christian Life" by Chinese writer and teacher Watchman Nee.

“As unbelievers we may have been wholly untroubled by our conscience until the Word of God began to arouse us. Our conscience was dead, and those with dead consciences are certainly of no use to God. But later, when we believed, our awakened conscience may have become acutely sensitive, and this can constitute a real problem to us. The sense of sin and guilt can become so great, so terrible, as almost to cripple us, by causing us to lose sight of the true effectiveness of the Blood. It seems to us that our sins are so real, and some particular sin may trouble us so many times, that we come to the point where to us our sins loom larger than the Blood of Christ.

The whole trouble with us is that we are trying to sense it; we are trying to feel its value and to estimate personally what the Blood is for us. We cannot do that; it doesn’t work that way. The blood is first for God to see. We then have to accept God's value of it. In doing so we shall find our salvation. If instead we try to come to its value by way of our feelings we get nothing; we remain in darkness. No, it is a matter of faith in God's Word. We have to believe that the blood is precious to God because he says it is so. If God can accept the blood as a payment for our sins and as the price of our redemption, then we can rest assured that the debt has been paid. If God is satisfied with the blood, then the blood must be acceptable. Our evaluation of it is only according to his evaluation--neither more nor less. It cannot be more, but it must not be less. Let us remember that He is holy and righteous, and that a holy and righteous God has the right to say that the blood is acceptable in his eyes and has fully satisfied Him.

The blood has satisfied God; but it must satisfy us also. So the second thing that the blood does is to cleanse our conscience. We previously had an evil conscience toward God, which kept us away from him. But the blood of Christ removes that barrier by cleansing our conscience from the guilt of sin... As soon as we find our conscience is uneasy, our faith leaks away, and immediately we know we cannot face God. In order therefore to keep going on with God we must know the up-to-date value of the blood. God keeps short accounts, and we are made nigh by the blood every day, every hour and every minute. It never loses its efficacy as our ground of access if we will but lay hold upon it. When we enter the Most Holy Place (God's presence through prayer), on what ground dare we enter but by the blood?

But am I really seeking the way into the presence of God by the blood or by something else? What do I mean when I say, "by the blood"? I mean simply that I recognize my sins, that I confess that I have need of cleansing and of atonement, and that I come to God on the basis of the finished work of the Lord Jesus. I approach God through his merit alone, and never on the basis of my attainment; never, for example, on the ground that I have been extra kind or patient today, or that I have done something for the Lord this morning. I have to come by way of the blood every time...A clear conscience is never based upon our attainment; it can only be based on the work of the Lord Jesus in the shedding of his blood.

I may be mistaken, but I feel very strongly that some of us are thinking in terms such as these: "Today I have been a little more careful; today I have been doing a little better; this morning I have been reading the Word of God in a warmer way, so today I can pray better"! Or again, "Today I have had a little difficulty with the family; I began the day feeling very gloomy and depressed; I am not feeling too bright now; it seems there must be something wrong; therefore the way is not clear for me to approach God."

What, after all, is your basis of approach to God? Do you come to him on the uncertain ground of your feeling, the feeling that you may have achieved something for God today? Or is your approach based on something far more secure, namely, the fact that the blood has been shed, and that God looks on the blood and is satisfied? Your approach to God is always in boldness; and that boldness is yours through the blood and never through your personal attainment. Whatever your measure of attainment today or yesterday or the day before, as soon as you make a conscious move into the Most Holy Place, immediately you have to take your stand upon the safe and only ground of the shed blood. Whether you have had a good day or a bad day, whether you have consciously sinned or not, your basis of approach is always the same -- the blood of Christ."


Thanks friend, that was a good read and I can relate to what its saying. One thing I have noticed "even though I doubt my salvation" is that my sensitivity to sin is pretty high, its like things that used to not bother me now bother me greatly when Im around them.

Also inappropriate content no longer has a hold on me, im still tempted to look at it but there is something that seems to stop me before I go to bad websites and when I do give in and look at bad stuff I feel like crap while doing it and after I do it I have this guilt that I used to not have before. I do desire to be as Holy as possible but I fail miserably at it on a daily basis and this seems to worsen my depression.
 
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This is a section from a chapter which I've found very beneficial and puts the value of the blood where it belongs - God's valuation of it. It is a section from the first chapter of "The Normal Christian Life" by Chinese writer and teacher Watchman Nee.

“As unbelievers we may have been wholly untroubled by our conscience until the Word of God began to arouse us. Our conscience was dead, and those with dead consciences are certainly of no use to God. But later, when we believed, our awakened conscience may have become acutely sensitive, and this can constitute a real problem to us. The sense of sin and guilt can become so great, so terrible, as almost to cripple us, by causing us to lose sight of the true effectiveness of the Blood. It seems to us that our sins are so real, and some particular sin may trouble us so many times, that we come to the point where to us our sins loom larger than the Blood of Christ.

The whole trouble with us is that we are trying to sense it; we are trying to feel its value and to estimate personally what the Blood is for us. We cannot do that; it doesn’t work that way. The blood is first for God to see. We then have to accept God's value of it. In doing so we shall find our salvation. If instead we try to come to its value by way of our feelings we get nothing; we remain in darkness. No, it is a matter of faith in God's Word. We have to believe that the blood is precious to God because he says it is so. If God can accept the blood as a payment for our sins and as the price of our redemption, then we can rest assured that the debt has been paid. If God is satisfied with the blood, then the blood must be acceptable. Our evaluation of it is only according to his evaluation--neither more nor less. It cannot be more, but it must not be less. Let us remember that He is holy and righteous, and that a holy and righteous God has the right to say that the blood is acceptable in his eyes and has fully satisfied Him.

The blood has satisfied God; but it must satisfy us also. So the second thing that the blood does is to cleanse our conscience. We previously had an evil conscience toward God, which kept us away from him. But the blood of Christ removes that barrier by cleansing our conscience from the guilt of sin... As soon as we find our conscience is uneasy, our faith leaks away, and immediately we know we cannot face God. In order therefore to keep going on with God we must know the up-to-date value of the blood. God keeps short accounts, and we are made nigh by the blood every day, every hour and every minute. It never loses its efficacy as our ground of access if we will but lay hold upon it. When we enter the Most Holy Place (God's presence through prayer), on what ground dare we enter but by the blood?

But am I really seeking the way into the presence of God by the blood or by something else? What do I mean when I say, "by the blood"? I mean simply that I recognize my sins, that I confess that I have need of cleansing and of atonement, and that I come to God on the basis of the finished work of the Lord Jesus. I approach God through his merit alone, and never on the basis of my attainment; never, for example, on the ground that I have been extra kind or patient today, or that I have done something for the Lord this morning. I have to come by way of the blood every time...A clear conscience is never based upon our attainment; it can only be based on the work of the Lord Jesus in the shedding of his blood.

I may be mistaken, but I feel very strongly that some of us are thinking in terms such as these: "Today I have been a little more careful; today I have been doing a little better; this morning I have been reading the Word of God in a warmer way, so today I can pray better"! Or again, "Today I have had a little difficulty with the family; I began the day feeling very gloomy and depressed; I am not feeling too bright now; it seems there must be something wrong; therefore the way is not clear for me to approach God."

What, after all, is your basis of approach to God? Do you come to him on the uncertain ground of your feeling, the feeling that you may have achieved something for God today? Or is your approach based on something far more secure, namely, the fact that the blood has been shed, and that God looks on the blood and is satisfied? Your approach to God is always in boldness; and that boldness is yours through the blood and never through your personal attainment. Whatever your measure of attainment today or yesterday or the day before, as soon as you make a conscious move into the Most Holy Place, immediately you have to take your stand upon the safe and only ground of the shed blood. Whether you have had a good day or a bad day, whether you have consciously sinned or not, your basis of approach is always the same -- the blood of Christ."
Sevral years ago I read quite a bit of Nee. He was very good on some things such as the quote above but very much a mystic in many ways. His book " The Release of The Spirit" is terrible.
 
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Sevral years ago I read quite a bit of Nee. He was very good on some things such as the quote above but very much a mystic in many ways. His book " The Release of The Spirit" is terrible.

Is there room for anything mystical in Baptist theology or is everything pretty much an academic/scholastic cut-and-dried all-figured-out doctrinal treatise? Is there any mystery left to it?
 
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mlqurgw

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Is there room for anything mystical in Baptist theology or is everything pretty much an academic/scholastic cut-and-dried all-figured-out doctrinal treatise? Is there any mystery left to it?
Sure there are mysteries and mystical truth but they aren't known mystically. He in some ways advocates a mystical understanding of objective truth. When I say he is a mystic that is what I mean.
 
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christian73

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Is there room for anything mystical in Baptist theology or is everything pretty much an academic/scholastic cut-and-dried all-figured-out doctrinal treatise? Is there any mystery left to it?
Yes, there are mysteries in the Bible. That's why we have to rely on the Holy Spirit to interpret the Scriptures.
 
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All whom God draws are made to see their need of Christ. That is how God draws. A leper who doesn't know he is a leper will never seek to be healed. A sinner, as opposed to someone who sins, who finds out he is a sinner will always run to the only remedy for his sin. The only way a sinner ever finds out he is a sinner is for God to reveal it to him. If Godevr reveals it to him he will trust Christ because he has nowhere else to go.
I'll agree with some of that. However, how do you explain The Great Commission?
 
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