L0U said:
Your kidding, right?
John 17:15
"|5083| You keep |0846| them |1537| from"
toreo autos ek
"keep them from"
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That blew right past you.
"shouldest take them out of [ek]
the world" (17.15a)
"from [ek]
evil" (17.15b)
The first instance is rapture from the world, the second instance is not rapture the evil of the world.
"from [ek]...
world" (Rev. 3.10a) - rapture from that hour of trial that is to yet come upon the whole
world; only death and rapture are assured ways of escaping this assured promise.
World in Rev. 3.10b is used in the same was as the world in John 17.15a. This brings their connection together to speak of rapture, whereas
from evil is not speaking of rapture in John 17.15b.
Context is whater matters. God wants you to read with a spirit of discernment!
Revelation 3:10
"|4671| you|5083| will keep |1537| from"
soi toreo ek
"keep you from"
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I've got no problem with 'ek' meaning out. For instance, look at the first part of John 17:15:
"arees autous ek tou kosmou"
(take them out of the world)
And I have no problem with Revelation 3:10 reading:
"kagoo se teereesoo ek tees hooras tou peirasmou tees"
"And I will keep you out of the hour of trial"
The problem that you fail to admit is that niether verse demands a forceful removal (or rapture) off the face of the earth.
Both John 17.15a and Rev. 3.10a are a clear receiving up, and Rev. 3.10a explains the reason, for those Christians who are accounted worthy to escape for keeping His patient Word (see Luke 21.36).
Yes it did. I just showed you, a second time. Don't be belligerent. Self-declarations don't count, not backed up.
Very well, but if I am taken 'out of this world' I must have of nessecity been in this world. If I am taken "out of the hour of trial" I must have of nessecity been in the hour of trial. Just like the great multitude of Revelation 7 who are seen coming "out of" ('ek') the great tribulation.
John 17.15a does not say when the rapture is, so it applies to both first rapture and the last rapture of the Tribulation, "out of this world". The world exists before the Tribulation. The world is not particular to just the Tribulation. So, when you read Rev. 3.10 "out of the hour of trial", using your quote replacement from John 17.15a, to be taken out of the hour of trial that is yet to come upon the whole world, may include its first parts, but not its whole part since death is not the meaning of being taken out of the world. As we know leading up the Tribulation there is the 6th seal, and already at this point we notice men hiding in caves, before the first trumpet is blown (no deaths here), and then "before the throne" (Rev. 7.9) is the rapture before the first trumpet of the Tribulation (even the first 4 trumpets there is no human deaths on mass yet, as only the earth is affected). How absolutely precise and accurate are the Scriptures! Whether you use "from" or "out of", the application neccesitates the same rapture at first rapture before many Christians are martyred in the Tribulation.
Powerful stuff! I for one am spiritually motivated intuitively to seek to overcome in Christ for the hope of being received at first rapture. In your faith, you have no such hope. How sad for you, as you would be looking for the Antichrist first in your life.
Yeah, I know all about it. Do you?
I just said it didn't I? I wouldn't say it if I didn't know it. Therefore, what we see is not the problem, but how we view what we see. there is my conscience in Christ quickened, and there is your conscience. One receives the hope, the other does not. This will wear on you over time for it is not the truth that you are believing.
But Charles Spurgeon knew about it personaly:
"Do not be carried away with new meanings. Plymouth Brethren delight to fish up some hitherto undiscovered tadpole of interpretation, and cry it round the town as a rare dainty; let us be content with more ordinary and more wholesome fishery. No one text is to be exalted above the plain analogy of faith; and no solitary expression is to shape our theology for us. Other men and wiser men have expounded before us, and anything undiscovered by them it were well to put to test and trial before we boast too loudly of the treasure-trove.
Be careful of Spurgeon, here we him sin bearing false witness saying only one verse is used which is not the case at all. It is because of several verses that agree. This should be your first sign something is wrong with Spurgeon's claim, when he sins bearing false witness. Very narrow-minded!
Despite the wordiness of Spurgeon, his attack on the Brethen amounts to a mindless self-declaration. Can you see the self-centeredness in this? The Holy Spirit reveals it.
"Robert Govett (Spurgeon praised his writings as having light a century ahead of his time and as being full of gold)" - this was stated about Govett, who believed in two raptures, first rapture according to readiness and the last rapture according to completion, that stops the dissension between pre- and post-trib. Spurgeon did not have the spiritual insight to see first rapture according to readiness though he complimented greatly Govett. This would be a contradition in character, an unstable approach. And as we know Spurgeon had that pride of believing he was premade for salvation, so that needs to be rejected too. He had his faults.
We have been requested to reply to a small tract which has been given away at the door of the Tabernacle, by one of the "Plymouth Brethren," but it is so devoid of all sense, Scripture and reason, that it needs no reply. We have not learned the art of beating the air, or replying to nonsense. The only meaning we could gather from the rambling writer's remarks was a confirmation of our accusation, and a wonderful discovery that a long controverted point is now settled; the unpardonable sin is declared to be speaking against the Darbyites. Our portion must be something terrible if this be correct, but we have so little faith in the spirit which inspires the Brethren, that we endure their thunderbolts as calmly as we would those of the other infallible gentleman who occupies the Vatican. Another of this amiable community, having detected an error in one of our printed sermons, has most industriously spread the tidings that Mr. Spurgeon is a blasphemer. At the doors of their meetings and by enclosures in letters this sweet specimen of Christian charity is abundantly distributed; more to their shame than to our injury. We are persuaded that neither the writer of that cowardly anonymous fly-sheet, nor any other Plymouthist, believes in his heart that Mr. Spurgeon would knowingly blaspheme the glorious name of Jesus, and therefore the issue of the pamphlet is, we fear, a wickedly malicious act, dictated by revenge on account of our remarks upon their party. Our name and character are in too good a keeping to be injured by these dastardly anonymous attacks. Neither Mr. Newton nor Mr. Muller would sanction such action; it is only from one clique that we receive this treatment. It is worthy of note that even the printer was ashamed or afraid to put his name to the printed paper. Our error was rectified as soon as ever we knew of it, and being fallible we could do no more; but these men, who pretend to be so marvellously led of the Spirit, have in this case deliberately, and in the most unmanly manner, sought to injure the character of one who has committed the great sin of mortifying their pride, and openly exposing their false doctrine."
(Charles H. Spurgeon- February 1867 Sword And Trowel)From the
Of the second school, there could be listed such names as George Muller (who first believed in pre-tribulation rapture). The progression of spiritual awareness from some error to know error might be seen as follows: pre to post to partial. This is the progression of more spiritual Christians. Or better yet never assuming pre or post alone, but seeing only pre+post from the start. That is what happened to me. I say harmony off the bat through the gift of having a spirit of discernment.
Charles Spurgeon once said that Robert Govett was a century ahead of his time because what he preached was too deep. This same Govett was the one who shared two deep insights into Gods truth: (1) that it is possible for Christians to be excluded from the millennial kingdom, it therefore requiring of believers to be faithful and diligent; and (2) that not all believers will be raptured before the Great Tribulation, meaning that only the overcoming and faithful ones will participate in the kingdom.
In general, there are three varied schools of thought regarding Matthew 24 & 25: (a) that all which is prophesied here pertains to the church, as advocated by Benjamin Newton; (b) that all in these chapters is related to the Jews, as championed by John Nelson Darby and C. I. Scofield; and (c) that some of the material in these two chapters concerns the church, as we maintain. The reason for such differences lies in ones understanding of who or what the disciples stand for: whether (a) the disciples represent the church; (b) the disciples symbolize the Jews; or (c) the disciples signify the Jewish remnant as well as the pillars of the church.
If you study you will find the 3rd school of thought is the correct one.
So then, if 'tereo' means 'keep' or 'guarded' and 'ek' means 'out' or 'from' I have no problem with that.
Therefore, given what is said, we can conclude that tereo is not our focus, but the context of what is being said. That is, the keep in Rev. 3.10 would be from the Hour of trial only promised by rapture in agreement with Rev. 17.15a out of the world rapture. And the keep from John 17.15b keep from is not the same usage, comparing context.
Do not shut your mind down to this. Do not try to rationalize your flesh further. You do not want to go down the road you are going.
Jesus never said we would'nt enter into the great tribulation. Nor did the apostles.
Jesus said some would go through the Great Tribulation and some would not, depending on their readiness. The apostles said the same thing.
Aside from all this, the promise is only given to the church of Philadelphia. No such promise is given to the other six churches but all seven churches are called to be overcomers.
Since the 7 churches are representing the 7 church periods, they are not limited just the churches at that time they were given, for obviously the church continues past the first century. 1828 represents the Philadephia church period, and all messages in all 7 churches are for all Christians, not just any one church period or even one church 1900 years ago. Taking these facts into account we know that this message is for all Christians. All 7 churches are to overcome which necessarily if overcoming will be included in the first resurrection rewards of reigning in the millennium (Rev. 20.2-7). But of the 7 churches Philadelphia, because it was the most spiritual, was given the warning to keep His patient Word to be kept from the hour of trial for they were most close to being qualified to be received at first rapture; nonetheless, how bizarre that not all Christians could not receive the same if they were alive at the first rapture.
You ought to be absolutely embarrased and humbled by what has been said. If you can not I dare say God's wrath will come upon you for rejecting His Word.