When does the resurrection of the dead take place?

[ewq1938]

one happens while one is asleep and the other happens while one is awake... anywho the vision here was a vision of the future given to those disciples...from God one and the same

They did not see the future. What happened happened in real time. Moses and Elijah came to speak to Christ.

 

[JohnRabbit]

Sorry guys, I find your posts too much work to decode. No hard feelings.

ok, let's just take it slowly.

 

[JohnRabbit]

Sorry guys, I find your posts too much work to decode. No hard feelings.

Genesis 1:26(KJV)
26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

this is saying that man's apprearance, when you look at him, is no different than if God was standing in front of you.

just imagine the shape of a shadow of a man on a wall.

that same shape would be on the wall if God were standing there.

you with me?

if not, then take a look at these verses:

Deuteronomy 4:14-18(KJV)
14And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.
15Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire:
16Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image (a physical representation, i.e. a statue.), the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,
17The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air,
18The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth:

 

[AFrazier]

I don't personally agree with the rapture hypothesis. Nor do I believe in a physical resurrection. It is sown a natural body. It is raised a spiritual body. My own thoughts on the timing of the resurrection is that it is continuous, beginning with the establishment of Christ's kingdom. As Thessalonians says, the dead in Christ will rise first, which is consistent with Isaiah 26 saying that with his dead body we shall rise. Matthew also states that after Christ's resurrection, many were resurrected also, and were seen by many. Then there's judgment day, where we're still seeing the dead being delivered up. And according to Paul, some of us will not sleep, but simply be transformed. There just isn't anything definitive one can put their finger on and say that at this point or that is the resurrection.

So I am of the opinion that the dead all slept until Christ. At Christ's resurrection, the faithful were raised with him. Then following his ascension, each is judged as they pass away.

I know this won't fit the eschatological views of some people, but it is the generalized concept I have formed over the years after much consideration. The specifics of my view can be greatly expounded upon, but I know better than to waste too much time with specifics on a forum.

 

[JohnRabbit]

So I am of the opinion that the dead all slept until Christ. At Christ's resurrection, the faithful were raised with him. Then following his ascension, each is judged as they pass away.

yeah, but don't you see how this type of thinking would go against heb 11:39-40!

 

[AFrazier]

yeah, but don't you see how this type of thinking would go against heb 11:39-40!

Hmmm, not sure if you're being sarcastic or not. I don't see Hebrews as contradicting what I said, but rather following it. All those who were before Christ did not receive the promise of resurrection because God didn't want them made perfect without us. So they slept until Christ and rose with him. "Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead." (Isaiah 26:19)

 

[JohnRabbit]

Hmmm, not sure if you're being sarcastic or not. I don't see Hebrews as contradicting what I said, but rather following it. All those who were before Christ did not receive the promise of resurrection because God didn't want them made perfect without us. So they slept until Christ and rose with him. "Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead." (Isaiah 26:19)

not being sarcastic, just going by what the bible says!

Hebrews 11:39-40(KJV)
39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

you said "So they slept until Christ and rose with him".

i find no scriptural support for that statement!

and then you say it "All those who were before Christ did not receive the promise of resurrection because God didn't want them made perfect without us"!

but look at what you say next "So they slept until Christ and rose with him", which would mean that they rose with Christ and was made perfect but we weren't there because we weren't even born yet!

so that would mean that they were made perfect "without" us and would go against the verse!

the verse clearly states that we will be made perfect at the same time which is in line with jn 5:28-29, 1thess 4:15-16, and rev 20:4-6!

 

[YSam44]

They did not see the future. What happened happened in real time. Moses and Elijah came to speak to Christ.

Well then you flat out just ignore what the bible says when it says that Christ is the firstborn from the dead... that Christ has pre eminence... also ignore heb 11 that moses along with the others had not received the promise..

okay

 

[YSam44]

not being sarcastic, just going by what the bible says!

Hebrews 11:39-40(KJV)
39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

you said "So they slept until Christ and rose with him".

i find no scriptural support for that statement!

and then you say it "All those who were before Christ did not receive the promise of resurrection because God didn't want them made perfect without us"!

but look at what you say next "So they slept until Christ and rose with him", which would mean that they rose with Christ and was made perfect but we weren't there because we weren't even born yet!

so that would mean that they were made perfect "without" us and would go against the verse!

the verse clearly states that we will be made perfect at the same time which is in line with jn 5:28-29, 1thess 4:15-16, and rev 20:4-6!

Very well put... I don't think anyone can argue with that

 

[All4Christ]

and second... spirit beings do not have to eat... they do not get tired... they do not alot of things that we physical humans being have to do to continue to live...so nooooooooo our bodies are not remotely the same...we are physical they are spiritual

I want to clarify that I do not believe our bodies will be the same. They are our physical bodies - but they are transformed. They are glorified and no longer have the same human needs or weaknesses. How does it happen? I don't know. But it is a physical resurrection where our bodies are transformed into a spiritual body (albeit not necessarily a "spirit").

Remember that Christ was no longer in the tomb. There was no body left behind. His own physical body was transformed into a spiritual body.

 

[ewq1938]

Well then you flat out just ignore what the bible says when it says that Christ is the firstborn from the dead...

no, Moses and Elijah visiting Christ doesn't affect Christ being the firstborn from the dead.

also ignore heb 11 that moses along with the others had not received the promise..

Nothing here violates that either.

 

[JohnRabbit]

They did not see the future. What happened happened in real time. Moses and Elijah came to speak to Christ.

can't be so and here's why!

back in matt 16 Jesus said this:

Matthew 16:27-28(KJV)
27For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
27Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

see that which i bolded?

now compare to this:

John 7:37-39(NKJV)
37On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink.
38He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.”
39But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

the transfiguration recorded in matt, mark, and luke occurred before the event described in jn 7:37-39!

so if Jesus was not yet glorified then the event had to be a vision of things to come (remember that He was shown in glory during the transfiguration, matt 17:2)!

 

[AFrazier]

not being sarcastic, just going by what the bible says!

Hebrews 11:39-40(KJV)
39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

you said "So they slept until Christ and rose with him".

i find no scriptural support for that statement!

and then you say it "All those who were before Christ did not receive the promise of resurrection because God didn't want them made perfect without us"!

but look at what you say next "So they slept until Christ and rose with him", which would mean that they rose with Christ and was made perfect but we weren't there because we weren't even born yet!

so that would mean that they were made perfect "without" us and would go against the verse!

the verse clearly states that we will be made perfect at the same time which is in line with jn 5:28-29, 1thess 4:15-16, and rev 20:4-6!

I understand where you're coming from. But as Paul also points out, the dead in Christ rise first, and there will be those of us who remain. Then, at the end of all things, as some interpret the Revelation, there is the great day of judgement, and there are still dead to be delivered up for judgement. And of course, there are those who never sleep at all, but are simply transformed.

So there is no singular and definitive event.

As for your take on Hebrews, I honestly think you are just reading it differently than I am. By analogy, I'm seeing the concept that a great new movie is coming out. And although they are privy to previews, they aren't being allowed to see the whole movie until it's available for everyone to see. You're take on it, by the same analogy, is that they aren't allowed to see the movie until we are all sitting in the theater at the same time and watch the debut as one big audience. I just disagree with that.

The scriptural support for the dead prior to Christ rising with him was given in my last post.

 

[ewq1938]

None of this is relevant to the fact Moses and Elijah visited Christ and it was witnessed by some disciples:

Luk 9:28 And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.
Luk 9:29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.
Luk 9:30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
Luk 9:31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.


Verse 31 proves this wasn't a vision of the future because Moses and Elijah came to speak to Christ about his own death.

can't be so and here's why!

back in matt 16 Jesus said this:

Matthew 16:27-28(KJV)
27For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
27Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

see that which i bolded?

now compare to this:

John 7:37-39(NKJV)
37On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink.
38He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.”
39But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

the transfiguration recorded in matt, mark, and luke occurred before the event described in jn 7:37-39!

so if Jesus was not yet glorified then the event had to be a vision of things to come (remember that He was shown in glory during the transfiguration, matt 17:2)!

 

[JohnRabbit]

I understand where you're coming from. But as Paul also points out, the dead in Christ rise first, and there will be those of us who remain.

yes, i agree.

Then, at the end of all things, as some interpret the Revelation, there is the great day of judgement, and there are still dead to be delivered up for judgement. And of course, there are those who never sleep at all, but are simply transformed.

yes, but we have to keep heb 9:27 in mind and compare that to:

1 Corinthians 15:22(NKJV)
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

so, the dead in Christ will rise first and then those that remain alive will lose their life, but only for a brief second or as paul says "in the twinkling of an eye". (remember that the scripture cannot be broken - jn 10:35! )

and then after 1000yrs, the rest of the dead will be resurrected, (see rev 20:5).

So there is no singular and definitive event.

an event that starts at Christ's return and will ultimately be fulfilled after the millennium.

As for your take on Hebrews, I honestly think you are just reading it differently than I am. By analogy, I'm seeing the concept that a great new movie is coming out. And although they are privy to previews, they aren't being allowed to see the whole movie until it's available for everyone to see. You're take on it, by the same analogy, is that they aren't allowed to see the movie until we are all sitting in the theater at the same time and watch the debut as one big audience. I just disagree with that.

what you wrote here might would fly but for jn 5:28-29 for starters, because it supports heb 11:39-40!

The scriptural support for the dead prior to Christ rising with him was given in my last post.

yeah, i read the verse, only thing is that it's the author referring to himself and not to Christ, which makes that verse in line with jn 5:28-29!

 

[JohnRabbit]

Verse 31 proves this wasn't a vision of the future because Moses and Elijah came to speak to Christ about his own death.

i have to go along with scripture on this one because we know when Christ was glorified and the timeline is simply indisputable proof! (cannot overlook jn 7:37-39)!

 

[JohnRabbit]

oops!

 

[ewq1938]

i have to go along with scripture on this one because we know when Christ was glorified and the timeline is simply indisputable proof! (cannot overlook jn 7:37-39)!

You are avoiding that I have proven the meeting between Jesus and Moses and Elijah was at that present time because they spoke about Christ's soon to be death.

 

[AFrazier]

yeah, i read the verse, only thing is that it's the author referring to himself and not to Christ, which makes that verse in line with jn 5:28-29!

You're right. I didn't notice that before, but he is saying that the dead would rise along with himself.

How about Hosea 6:2? "After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight."

 

[YSam44]

None of this is relevant to the fact Moses and Elijah visited Christ and it was witnessed by some disciples:

Luk 9:28 And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.
Luk 9:29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.
Luk 9:30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
Luk 9:31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.


Verse 31 proves this wasn't a vision of the future because Moses and Elijah came to speak to Christ about his own death.

I think JohnRabbit laid it out perfectly in his post... The time line and scripture nails it... It was simply a vision as Christ said it was a vision...

Second, notice that as He (Christ) prayed he became transfigured (countenance was being altered) and all of a sudden two men appeared and spake of his (Christ) decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem... Christ had yet to give His life at this point, had yet to come in glory, and had yet laid out his reward to every man as JohnRabbit pointed out.

These disciples were sorely afraid of what they were seeing...but more than that what question did they leave with? Mark 9 gives the answer v 10 10 And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean.

Christ was using this moment to teach His disciples about His death to come and what His resurrection would mean for all of mankind...Elijah and Moses the disciples would have been familiar with these biblical figures...