When does the resurrection of the dead take place?

[YSam44]

@YSam44 - at the Transfiguration Elijah and Moses appeared with Jesus. Jude speaks of the Archangel Michael fighting with the devil over the body of Moses (which refers to an apocryphal book called the Assumption of Moses). This explains how Moses would no longer be in the grave prior to Jesus' resurrection. If Elijah wasn't translated to Heaven - if he died a normal death - how was he able to appear at the transfiguration?

Sure it was a vision... Just like the vision John had when he wrote the book of Revelation

 

[ewq1938]

a number of people have physically died twice...those that Christ rose... Jonah died twice... we are talking of a resurrection to immortal life and then the second death (final death)

We we aren't talking about that final death.

You posted this thinking it means everyone has to die:

Heb_9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:


I said it doesn't universally apply. I quoted Paul who said some people will not die even once, then I used Lazarus to prove he died more than once. Both examples prove Heb_9:27 is not universal to all people. Case closed, your supposition that everyone has to die one time is disproven.

 

[ewq1938]

In order for mortality to sow on immortality, or corruption to sow on incorruption one must die as in verse 36 same chapter

There is an exception to that which you are refusing to accept.

 

[All4Christ]

Sure it was a vision... Just like the vision John had when he wrote the book of Revelation

Why do you think the vision showed Elijah and Moses? There was a meaning for everything - and visions always had a purpose.

Moses represents the law and all those who have died. Elijah represents the prophets and—since he did not experience death—all those who are alive in Christ.

Their presence shows that the law and the prophets, the living and the dead, all bear witness to Jesus as the Messiah, the fulfillment of the whole Old Testament.

It's a beautiful passage - full of meaning for us as Christians.

 

[mmksparbud]

So Moses was not with Elijah t the transfiguration? "We shall not all sleep" means:

in other words they are currently living, while the others sleep when the big event happens...aaaah ha

"Currently living"---as opposed to sleeping--- those sleeping are not currently living then? Well, at least you finally agree!!

1Co_15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Th_4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

It would be hard to sleep through this.

 

[YSam44]

@YSam44 - at the Transfiguration Elijah and Moses appeared with Jesus. Jude speaks of the Archangel Michael fighting with the devil over the body of Moses (which refers to an apocryphal book called the Assumption of Moses). This explains how Moses would no longer be in the grave prior to Jesus' resurrection. If Elijah wasn't translated to Heaven - if he died a normal death - how was he able to appear at the transfiguration?

And second, it doesnt say anything about Moses not being in a grave...Matt 17 Jesus told his disciples tell the vision to no man... Vision.... but back to Moses... Duet 34.5-6 God buried Moses and no one knows where the grave is... thats what we are told...lets stick with the facts

 

[YSam44]

Why do you think the vision showed Elijah and Moses? There was a meaning for everything - and visions always had a purpose.

Moses represents the law and all those who have died. Elijah represents the prophets and—since he did not experience death—all those who are alive in Christ.

Their presence shows that the law and the prophets, the living and the dead, all bear witness to Jesus as the Messiah, the fulfillment of the whole Old Testament.

It's a beautiful passage - full of meaning for us as Christians.

Lets stick with what we are talking about --- it was a vision... Elijah and Moses were not in heaven...

 

[YSam44]

So Moses was not with Elijah t the transfiguration? "We shall not all sleep" means:





"Currently living"---as opposed to sleeping--- those sleeping are not currently living then? Well, at least you finally agree!!

1Co_15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Th_4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

It would be hard to sleep through this.

Great.... but in order to change from mortal to immortal... one will have to die! verse 36 same chapter...don't worry though it wont take long...

 

[YSam44]

hmmmm, i think i am batman

guess i better turn it in... see yall later...nite

 

[mmksparbud]

Great.... but in order to change from mortal to immortal... one will have to die! verse 36 same chapter...don't worry though it wont take long...

Goodnight---- Does that mean while you are sleeping, you are not currently alive??
I would still like to know what part of "not see death" you do not understand?

 

[All4Christ]

Lets stick with what we are talking about --- it was a vision... Elijah and Moses were not in heaven...

I agree that it was a vision, though that doesn't mean that the reality behind the vision wasn't true.

Moses being in heaven at that point is debatable (though I recommend looking up info about the apocryphal writing Jude referenced). However it is very clear that Elijah was in heaven. Pretty much every biblical scholar agrees that Elijah never died. Plus - historically the Christian church has believed that Elijah never died. Mmkspar has given you clear proof from Paul's writings. To interpret those a verses otherwise requires one to read things into the passage that aren't there and requires one to explain away a bunch of passages.

 

[ewq1938]

hmmmm, i think i am batman

guess i better turn it in... see yall later...nite

When you are tired and want to sleep, you think of Batman? Batman doesn't inspire sleeping for me...

 

[ewq1938]

I agree that it was a vision, though that doesn't mean that the reality behind the vision wasn't true.

Yes and often visions are different than we think of them today. They are called visions because they are seen by the eye....real things in real time that are real.

A vision means something visual seen, not an imaginary vision of things that aren't real.

Mat 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

G3705
??´?aµa
horama
hor'-am-ah
From G3708; something gazed at, that is, a spectacle (especially supernatural): - sight, vision.

Mark makes this clear:


Mar 9:9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.

Luk 9:36 And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen.

And so does Luke.

 

[All4Christ]

Yes and often visions are different than we think of them today. They are called visions because they are seen by the eye....real things in real time that are real.

A vision means something visual seen, not an imaginary vision of things that aren't real.

Mat 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

G3705
??´?aµa
horama
hor'-am-ah
From G3708; something gazed at, that is, a spectacle (especially supernatural): - sight, vision.

Mark makes this clear:


Mar 9:9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.

Luk 9:36 And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen.

And so does Luke.

Agreed 100%. Also, thanks for pulling up that info - I was planning to do something like that once I got off my phone and onto my laptop.

 

[Noxot]

Yes, when you die you will be free from everything... God, Satan, and even peanut butter sandwhiches

well for me personally I feel that the saints and the angels and Jesus are all already alive.

 

[All4Christ]

well for me personally I feel that the saints and the angels and Jesus are all already alive.

Physically resurrected, or as in their souls are in heaven and their bodies will be raised at the last days?

 

[Noxot]

Physically resurrected, or as in their souls are in heaven and their bodies will be raised at the last days?

1Cor 15:35-50 (YLT)
But some one will say, `How do the dead rise? unwise! thou--what thou dost sow is not quickened except it may die; and that which thou dost sow, not the body that shall be dost thou sow, but bare grain, it may be of wheat, or of some one of the others, and God doth give to it a body according as He willed, and to each of the seeds its proper body. All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another of fishes, and another of birds; and there are heavenly bodies, and earthly bodies; but one is the glory of the heavenly, and another that of the earthly; one glory of sun, and another glory of moon, and another glory of stars, for star from star doth differ in glory. So also is the rising again of the dead: it is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption; it is sown in dishonour, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body; there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body; so also it hath been written, `The first man Adam became a living creature,' the last Adam is for a life-giving spirit, but that which is spiritual is not first, but that which was natural, afterwards that which is spiritual. The first man is out of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord out of heaven; as is the earthy, such are also the earthy; and as is the heavenly, such are also the heavenly; and, according as we did bear the image of the earthy, we shall bear also the image of the heavenly. And this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood the reign of God is not able to inherit, nor doth the corruption inherit the incorruption;

Spoiler: to be with God is true life

2Cor 5:14-18 (YLT)
for the love of the Christ doth constrain us, having judged thus: that if one for all died, then the whole died, and for all he died, that those living, no more to themselves may live, but to him who died for them, and was raised again. So that we henceforth have known no one according to the flesh, and even if we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know him no more; so that if any one is in Christ-- he is a new creature; the old things did pass away, lo, become new have the all things. And the all things are of God, who reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and did give to us the ministration of the reconciliation,

if ever we are resurrected back to this universe then i hope to God that it is resurrected as well because I am tired of mortal creatures suffering and having to eat one another, to have to breath air in order to exist, for random explosions of stars to both destroy and create anew planets and other things in the universe. and for what? so that it can all go out in a few trillion years? how meaningless!

 

[All4Christ]

Ok...I agree with those verses. Could you explain what you are trying to point out with them? I would use those verses to support what I believe as well (I explained that towards the beginning of the thread).

 

[YSam44]

Goodnight---- Does that mean while you are sleeping, you are not currently alive??
I would still like to know what part of "not see death" you do not understand?

I guess you didnt read my post # 136 ... in this chapter Paul was talking about certain events in these peoples lives that their faith was remarkable... so again... what part of these were events in these peoples lives do you not understand

 

[YSam44]

I agree that it was a vision, though that doesn't mean that the reality behind the vision wasn't true.

Moses being in heaven at that point is debatable (though I recommend looking up info about the apocryphal writing Jude referenced). However it is very clear that Elijah was in heaven. Pretty much every biblical scholar agrees that Elijah never died. Plus - historically the Christian church has believed that Elijah never died. Mmkspar has given you clear proof from Paul's writings. To interpret those a verses otherwise requires one to read things into the passage that aren't there and requires one to explain away a bunch of passages.

It was a vision of the future... that is simply it... a time when Moses and Elijah would be in the Kingdom of God with Christ... wow what a incentive to receive a vision like that...but there is no debate that Moses and Elijah were dead and buried in the ground... they at this point had not been resurrected!!!...

Why? The penalty of sin had not been paid... That is it...Christ had not yet died for the sins of humanity...Christ died for Moses and Elijah too, not just us.