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no resurrection for the damned.
why do you say that?no resurrection for the damned.
Either in the dispensational resurrection on the mansion worlds or directly after death if one is spiritually advanced enough. Some translate directly and their mortal body consumed by spiritual flames.i've already posted a thread on the resurrection and now i think another element of the resurrection needs to be discussed.
when does the resurrection of the just and unjust take place?
When does the resurrection of the just and unjust take place?
Indeed, but the author of these words is almost certainly not intending the readers to take this literally.1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Jason Sanders: Paul indeed adds at the end of 1 Thess. 4 after speaking of the coming of the Lord: "Wherefore comfort one another with these words."No man shall know the time or the place, not even the Son- for only th Father knows, and He has hidden from all.
Aka- don't worry about it, it happens when it happens, focus your life and efforts on things other than the absolutely vexing topic if the end times. Not because its complicated (it isn't) but because man makes it far more invoked than it needs to be. He is coming "soon". That's all we need to know.
If Christ doesn't know when the End comes then He is not omniscient, then He is not infinite and subject to time—past, present and future. This conscept also destroys the belief of the Holy Trinity. It leaves Jesus a great prophet, that is all.
If Christ doesn't know when the end comes then He is not Perfection———-
never heard that one before.Either in the dispensational resurrection on the mansion worlds or directly after death if one is spiritually advanced enough. Some translate directly and their mortal body consumed by spiritual flames.
Indeed, but the author of these words is almost certainly not intending the readers to take this literally.
How do I know this? Because, at the risk of appearing immodest, I have done my homework. To wit:
1. I know that Daniel 7, which contains an extended metaphor of a Son of Man character moving up "on the clouds" to be enthroned in Heaven.
2. I know from knowledge of history that Daniel 7 was well-known to the Jews of Jesus' day;
3. I know that Jesus identified Himself as the Son of Man character from Daniel 7 in his interaction with Caiaphus ("you will see the son of man coming on the clouds").
4. Therefore, the modern image of a Jesus coming down on the clouds to gather the "raptured" is decidedly at odds with Biblical precedent - Biblical precedent has the son of man going up "on the clouds", not down;
5. I know from knowledge of history that it was common practice for people greeting an emperor to leave the city walls and meet that emperor "in the open air" outside the city gates. So when Paul writes of meeting the Lord "in the air", he does not mean that we will literally be in the air - he is drawing on a well-known image of the day that involves no one getting airborne!
There are many other reasons why the concept of the rapture is very weakly supported, if supported at all, in the Bible.
I confess to certain degree of mystification at the unwillingness of many Christians to understand that much Biblical language is metaphorical - not to be taken literally. Somehow the frankly absurd notion that the entire sprawling text of the Bible was written by simpletons who were not able to use literary device to good purpose has taken hold in much of western evangelicalism. I suggest this is clearly a major blunder.
Of course it is a vision, but it establishes clear precedent of the "coming on the clouds" image to denote an ascent into heaven rather than a descent from heaven. That does not prove anything, but it certainly suggests that when Paul - who knew his Old Testament inside out - would not likely use the "coming on the clouds" image to refer to a descent (which is how rapture theology sees things).It would be best if you at least quoted what you're talking about---
Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
It is obvious that is a vision--why??---because it says so.
But this is obviously a metaphor! Clearly, the term "asleep" is being used to refer to the dead.It is also quite obvious that Thessalonians is not referring to a vision or a metaphor---Why?---because it says so.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
Fair enough. I have a response to this that will have to wait, but I certainly concede that this is a clear reference to a descent. So I agree that my arguments to this point have a problem. I am still convinced that rapture theology is wrong, though, and I believe I can "fix" my argument so that is solid.1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,....
Trust me, I have a done a lot of homework on this issue as you will shortly discover. Rapture theology is a product of the last 200 years and was unknown in Christendom before that time. It is also only widely believed in North America.What people do to meet an earthly ruler has nothing to do with the Ruler of rulers coming down to get His people to take them up to be with Him,---His feet shall not touch this sinful world until it is made new. Perhaps you need to do a little more homework.
No. You are pre-emptively asserting that the vision must be interpreted literally, and that is clearly not a legitimate move. It could, of course, be intended to be taken literally but that remains an open question.A vision is not the actual thing actually taking place, it is a representation of what will be. A word from God saying this is what is going to happen is prophetic and always accurate. When Paul says this is the word of the Lord, that is exactly what He means. God said, this is what is going to happen---period. You want to believe something else based on what earthly men do instead of what the word of God says--fine, your choice.
Well, the Bible dos say that not even Christ knows when the end will come, just teh Father and Father alone.If Christ doesn't know when the End comes then He is not omniscient, then He is not infinite and subject to time—past, present and future. This conscept also destroys the belief of the Holy Trinity. It leaves Jesus a great prophet, that is all.
If Christ doesn't know when the end comes then He is not Perfection———-
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