When does the Church start ?

[Dispy]

THANKS for you rapid response.

Yes, the veil in the temple was torn at the crucifiction of Christ. I cannot find anywhere in my Bible as to why it was torn. My Bible just confirms that it was.

Halley's Bible commentary calls the area behind the curtain as "The Throne Room of God." I do believe that God's presence was in there. But, once the curtain was torn, all we know is that God no longer dwelt there. The Bible doesn't give me a clue as to any other reason.

acts1339:
Dispy,
I have talked to some others who hold to your dispensational teaching and they do not recognize, believe, or acknowledge types and shadows in scripture. If you hold the same position, then the veil has no meaning or significance to you, nor will the fact that the veil was torn mean a thing to you. If you hold that position, the temple itself will have no spiritual significance to you other than being a Jewish place of worship under the law.

Dispy:
Don't believe that the ones you talked to hold my dispensational views, because I Do acknowledge shadows and types in scripture. Yes, I do believe that the temple itself was the place where they worshiped when the Law was in effect.

acts1339:
You say you cannot find anywhere in your Bible as to why the veil was torn? The scriptures are there and the teaching is in the Bible if you will receive it. It answers the question of when the law was taken out of the way and pure grace began.

BigD:
PLEASE show me what the Bible teaches concerning the tearing of the temple veil. I am still in the learning more, and open to teaching.

Peter in Acts 10 was still observing the Law. Who, before Paul ever preached the Cross as good news? Peter in Acts 3 preached it as something to be repented of.

acts1339:
We're pretty much at an impasse if you see no significance in the rending of the temple veil when Jesus Christ the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world was crucified.

Thanks for the conversation and God bless.

BigD:
We are only at an impasse because it appears you do not wish to discuss it any longer, and don't seem to be open to discussion.

 

[acts1339]

Dispy, thanks for the conversation and I do appreciate your time and replies. If this was a matter of your salvation I would definitely want to continue. But I believe you are saved and my brother in Christ
I've been dealing for a couple years with a lady in one of the nursing homes I minister in who is lost and will continue as long as the door is open to witness! But you ain't lost!

I have to confess this forum response / reply thing has begun to occupy my thoughts when my mind needs to be on other things. Maybe that doesn't make sense, but I think I need to step back.

I don't know if you would agree about "iron sharpening iron" on your part, but I think I've experienced a little of that!

Thank you again and God bless.

Oh, and thank you for being gracious and replying to my first post to you. (see, I can't stay away...)
God bless!

 

[Dispy]

Dispy, thanks for the conversation and I do appreciate your time and replies. If this was a matter of your salvation I would definitely want to continue. But I believe you are saved and my brother in Christ
I've been dealing for a couple years with a lady in one of the nursing homes I minister in who is lost and will continue as long as the door is open to witness! But you ain't lost!

I have to confess this forum response / reply thing has begun to occupy my thoughts when my mind needs to be on other things. Maybe that doesn't make sense, but I think I need to step back.

I don't know if you would agree about "iron sharpening iron" on your part, but I think I've experienced a little of that!

Thank you again and God bless.

Oh, and thank you for being gracious and replying to my first post to you. (see, I can't stay away...)
God bless!

It appears to me that you do not wish to continue a dialogue with me. I was hoping you could teach me what the Bible teaches concerning the tearing of the temple veil.

You, like many others I have dialogued with fail to teach me, from Scripture, why what I believe is in error. I guess that is something I just have to live with.

Really did enjoy the dialogue we had.

 

[PastorTeacher]

A better question is when DID the church start. I personally hold to 36 A.D which is the day of Pentecost.

 

[Dispy]

A better question is when DID the church start. I personally hold to 36 A.D which is the day of Pentecost.

The Church, the Body of Christ consists of Jew and Gentile on equal footing, without distinction, and not under the Law. I cannot find that Church at Pentecost, or priorl to Apostle Paul.

PLEASE show it to me.

 

[PastorTeacher]

The Church, the Body of Christ consists of Jew and Gentile on equal footing, without distinction, and not under the Law. I cannot find that Church at Pentecost, or priorl to Apostle Paul.

PLEASE show it to me.

Sorry. My intent here is to state what I believe is truth and not to wage in biblical/theological debate. We must strive to maintain unity amongst other believers, therefore I speak what I believe and refuse to fall into an issue of debate. This was not always my belief but with further study I believe that it is best to remain silent when it comes to "debating" or "arguing" so not to sow discord amongst the brethren.

 

[Dispy]

Sorry. My intent here is to state what I believe is truth and not to wage in biblical/theological debate. We must strive to maintain unity amongst other believers, therefore I speak what I believe and refuse to fall into an issue of debate. This was not always my belief but with further study I believe that it is best to remain silent when it comes to "debating" or "arguing" so not to sow discord amongst the brethren.

How can you call yourself "pastor teacher" when you will not teach me where I can find the Church, the Body of Christ, Jew and Gentile on equal footing at Pentecost, and before the Apostle Paul.

Lets not argue, lets dialogue.

 

[PastorTeacher]

How can you call yourself "pastor teacher" when you will not teach me where I can find the Church, the Body of Christ, Jew and Gentile on equal footing at Pentecost, and before the Apostle Paul.

Lets not argue, lets dialogue.

Very easy, I have the gifts of Pastor-Teacher. An argument by any other name is still an argument. You have stated your belief in a previous post on this thread as I have mine. In my experience people do not change their beliefs that easily. Therefore I do not think you are sincere, but seeking a "dialogue" i.e argument.

 

[Dispy]

[QUOTE-Dispy[/QUOTE]How can you call yourself "pastor teacher" when you will not teach me where I can find the Church, the Body of Christ, Jew and Gentile on equal footing at Pentecost, and before the Apostle Paul.

Lets not argue, lets dialogue.

Very easy, I have the gifts of Pastor-Teacher. An argument by any other name is still an argument. You have stated your belief in a previous post on this thread as I have mine. In my experience people do not change their beliefs that easily. Therefore I do not think you are sincere, but seeking a "dialogue" i.e argument.

I'm sure that at one time I held many of the same erroneous beliefs that you have.

You see, I was reared up in a strong major denomination, and educated in their "Christian School". I believed everything and wanted to believe everything that I was being taught.

I was taught to read my Bible daily, which I did religiously, and from what I was reading, compared to what I was being taught, The Bible became a contradictory book. The OT began to read like fairy tales.

When I asked my pastor, and teachers, to reconcile the apparent contradictions, all I got was denominational answers that didn't answer my questions.

As I got older I started attending other denominational, and non-denominational churches looking for answers. All I got was the same denominational answers that still didn't answer my questions.

They all claimed to be right because they were Biblical. I'll admit that they were all Biblical, but couldn't agree with each other. I found it extremely hard to believe that God was the author of this confusion.

Because I could not find answers to my questions, I had to quit reading the Bible for fear of going crazy not being able to figure it out. This caused me to go un-churched for about 15 years, although I still had a longing for truth.

Then one Sunday morning circumstances cause to to attend a small church near where I lived. That Sunday morning the pastor that was speaking answered all the questions of my youth, and I didn't even ask a question. I sat dumbfounded as my eyes were being opened.

From what I was taught in my early years, I thought there was only one major doctrine in the Bible. Law and Grace were taught and preached as one gospel. That Sunday morning I was shown that what I had thought were contradictions was a transition from the doctrine of the Law to the doctrine of Grace. Once I was shown that distinction, the Bible again began to be a joy to study, and much easier to understand.

Now I understand that from Abram, in Acts 12, and from Moses, through Acts 7, all pertains to the nation of Israel. The Church, the Body of Christ, and salvation by FAITH alone is nowhere found prior to the raising up of Saul/Paul.

God gave His instructions in righteousness (Law) to the children of Israel through the Civil, Moral, and Ceremonial Laws of Moses.

God gave His instructions in righteousness to the the Church, the body of Christ, through the Pauline Epistles (Grace).

My posting on these forums is not to criticize or argue, but to discuss and learn

It was a "pastor/teacher who taught me to "rightly divide" the Word of Truth, and I enjoy discussing the different doctrines of other people. I make every attempt to support my views with scripture,

I question no man's salvation.

 

[PastorTeacher]

That's fair enough. I am glad that you had all your question answered. How great God is in His faithfulness and timing. I do not think it fair to say that I have many erroneous beliefs as you do not know all of my beliefs or theological stance. While you may truly want to "discuss and learn" I have experienced even the most innocent of motives can-and often does-turn into something that is opposite of unity. I too have been taught to "rightly divide the Word of Truth" and if I am in error then I will be accountable to God and only God. I pray that I am 100% correct in all of my beliefs and only continuous study, pray and meditation will let me grow to not only Spiritual maturity, but a statement of faith free from errors. God bless.

 

[Dispy]

That's fair enough. I am glad that you had all your question answered. How great God is in His faithfulness and timing. I do not think it fair to say that I have many erroneous beliefs as you do not know all of my beliefs or theological stance. While you may truly want to "discuss and learn" I have experienced even the most innocent of motives can-and often does-turn into something that is opposite of unity. I too have been taught to "rightly divide the Word of Truth" and if I am in error then I will be accountable to God and only God. I pray that I am 100% correct in all of my beliefs and only continuous study, pray and meditation will let me grow to not only Spiritual maturity, but a statement of faith free from errors. God bless.

I do believe that your first posting to me was in error.

If you can show me the Church, the Body of Christ, Jew and Gentile on equal footing, without distinction, and not under the Law, prior to the raising up of the Apostle Paul, I will admit that you corrected me.

 

[PastorTeacher]

I do believe that your first posting to me was in error.

If you can show me the Church, the Body of Christ, Jew and Gentile on equal footing, without distinction, and not under the Law, prior to the raising up of the Apostle Paul, I will admit that you corrected me.

That's the great thing about me, you can believe I am in error, however, I do not believe the Church and Israel are "on equal footing" nor do I believe the Church has every been under the Law. To be more through, I believe that the Law was done away with and no one is any longer under it's requirements. Law was also for the Nation of Israel and was never meant for Gentiles. We as the Church, the body of Christ are under Grace, hence why this era of humane history is referred to as the Age of Grace or the Church Age. There are several differing thoughts as to when the Church actually got started. I still hold to the day of Pentecost and do not see a point in trying to prove to you "where in scripture" it says that as you are strongly holding to your school of thought and believe the churches beginning is associated with the Apostle Paul. I for one am not Pauline as I use to be, but that is neither here nor there. I do believe that I have wasted much time one this topic with you and now have said all I feel that is needed to say. Thank you for your time.

 

[Dispy]

I do believe that your first posting to me was in error.

If you can show me the Church, the Body of Christ, Jew and Gentile on equal footing, without distinction, and not under the Law, prior to the raising up of the Apostle Paul, I will admit that you corrected me.

That's the great thing about me, you can believe I am in error, however, I do not believe the Church and Israel are "on equal footing" nor do I believe the Church has every been under the Law. To be more through, I believe that the Law was done away with and no one is any longer under it's requirements. Law was also for the Nation of Israel and was never meant for Gentiles. We as the Church, the body of Christ are under Grace, hence why this era of humane history is referred to as the Age of Grace or the Church Age. There are several differing thoughts as to when the Church actually got started. I still hold to the day of Pentecost and do not see a point in trying to prove to you "where in scripture" it says that as you are strongly holding to your school of thought and believe the churches beginning is associated with the Apostle Paul. I for one am not Pauline as I use to be, but that is neither here nor there. I do believe that I have wasted much time one this topic with you and now have said all I feel that is needed to say. Thank you for your time.

P/T:
That's the great thing about me, you can believe I am in error, however, I do not believe the Church and Israel are "on equal footing" nor do I believe the Church has every been under the Law.

Dispy:
Why is it a great thing about you that I can believe you are in error?

In this present dispensation of GRACE, there is no difference between the Jew and the Gentile. in this dispensation of Grace "For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him" (Rm. 10:12). Confirmed also in Gal. 3:28.

You are right, The Church, the Body of Christ has never been under the Law. It, the Church today, was established through the Apostle Paul after Israel was given temporary slumbering eyes (set aside) (cf. Rom. 11:7-12, 25). ----------------
P/T:
I believe that the Law was done away with and no one is any longer under it's requirements. Law was also for the Nation of Israel and was never meant for Gentiles. We as the Church, the body of Christ are under Grace, hence why this era of humane history is referred to as the Age of Grace or the Church Age.

BigD:
Again I do agree with you that no one is any longer under the Law. It was given only to the nation of Israel as their instructions in righteousness. When it was given to the nation of Israel, for one that was a Gentile, and wanted to serve the true and living God of Israel, that one had to become a Jew (proselyte) and place themselves under the Civil, Moral, and Ceremonial Laws of Moses.

Being the Law was only given to the nation of Israel, when God gave Israel temporary slumbering eyes (set aside), the Law was also temporarily set aside.

With the temporary setting aside of Israel, God raised up Saul/Paul to usher in this present dispensation of Grace, i.e. the Church age
------------.
P/T:
There are several differing thoughts as to when the Church actually got started. I still hold to the day of Pentecost and do not see a point in trying to prove to you "where in scripture" it says that as you are strongly holding to your school of thought and believe the churches beginning is associated with the Apostle Paul. I for one am not Pauline as I use to be, but that is neither here nor there. I do believe that I have wasted much time one this topic with you and now have said all I feel that is needed to say. Thank you for your time.

BigD:
I understand you point that you are not trying to prove to me that the Church, the Body of Christ, Jew and Gentile on equal footing, with out distinction, and not under the Law, started at Pentecost. It is because you cannot do it.

It seem to men that one that claims to be a pastor/teacher would be more then willing to do it. So you see, I can understand why you don't want to do it.