When does the Church start ?

[Dispy]

From you title, I mus assume you are referring to the Church, the Body of Christ, and I will respond based upon that assumption.

The Church, the Body of Christ, consists of Jews and Gentiles on equal footing, without distinction, and not under the Law. That church did not start until after the raising up/conversion of the Apostle Paul.

Since the Church, the Body of Christ, had been "kept secret since the world began", until revealed to Paul, it cannot be read into any Scripture prior to its being made known. Therefore, it cannot be read into the Gospels, or any of the OT. It surely cannot be found at Pentecost in Acts 2. According to Acts 2:16-21 it was the Tribulation that began at Pentecost.

???????

if the mountians move is in the future.... there is no word of tribulation in acts 2 ... none ... so what are you saying?

In Acts 2:16-20 Peter is quoting Joel 2:26-32. Joel is speaking of "the Last days" also known as the Tribulation, and The Times of Jacobs Troubles, which are the 70th week of Daniel 10.

Peter was not out in left field looking for a hockey puck. He knew exactly where he was in the timetable of prophecy.

Prior to Jesus returning to heaven He opened up the Scriptures to the disciples understanding. Further, Peter, and the 11 was speaking "...as the Spirit gave them utterance (Acts 2:40.

 

[Bro in Christ]

In Acts 2:16-20 Peter is quoting Joel 2:26-32. Joel is speaking of "the Last days" also known as the Tribulation, and The Times of Jacobs Troubles, which are the 70th week of Daniel 10.

Peter was not out in left field looking for a hockey puck. He knew exactly where he was in the timetable of prophecy.

Prior to Jesus returning to heaven He opened up the Scriptures to the disciples understanding. Further, Peter, and the 11 was speaking "...as the Spirit gave them utterance (Acts 2:40.

Daniel 70 week is Seven years .... So we are not in the 1000 year reign ... Matt 24:21 stated the worst time ever.... let allone prophecy not fulfilled

Lets look at
Acts 2:16 But this is like what was spoken by the prophet Joel [Same Spirit But Different event ] ; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh[ACTS 1:15 only 120 people ]: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions [ACTS 2:6 only spoke in tongues] , and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:[why 1 cor 13:8 prophecy was done away with during the dispensation of grace after revelations thus this is telling of NEW REVELATIONS ] 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come[this entire verse is talking about Matt 24.. same wording Matt 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
after 70 ad 3 millions jews died fighting the Romans from Jersalem
1200 1/2 population died
WWII 50 to 60 million people died

Matt 24 will be worst .....

 

[Dispy]

In Acts 2:16-20 Peter is quoting Joel 2:26-32. Joel is speaking of "the Last days" also known as the Tribulation, and The Times of Jacobs Troubles, which are the 70th week of Daniel 10.

Peter was not out in left field looking for a hockey puck. He knew exactly where he was in the timetable of prophecy.

Prior to Jesus returning to heaven He opened up the Scriptures to the disciples understanding. Further, Peter, and the 11 was speaking "...as the Spirit gave them utterance (Acts 2:40).

Daniel 70 week is Seven years .... So we are not in the 1000 year reign ... Matt 24:21 stated the worst time ever.... let allone prophecy not fulfilled

Lets look at
Acts 2:16 But this is like what was spoken by the prophet Joel [Same Spirit But Different event ] ; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh[ACTS 1:15 only 120 people ]: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions [ACTS 2:6 only spoke in tongues] , and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:[why 1 cor 13:8 prophecy was done away with during the dispensation of grace after revelations thus this is telling of NEW REVELATIONS ] 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come[this entire verse is talking about Matt 24.. same wording Matt 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
after 70 ad 3 millions jews died fighting the Romans from Jersalem
1200 1/2 population died
WWII 50 to 60 million people died

Matt 24 will be worst .....

I am in total agreement with you in that the Tribulation is a 7 year period, and that we are not in the 1,000 year reign of Christ.

We know that Israel, as a nation, rejected their King and His kingdom when they cried "crucify Him". We know that the leaders of Israel rejected Him when they refused to be baptized by John. Paul tells us in Romans 10:1-3 that they tried to establish their own righteousness.

When Israel, as a nation, rejected their king and His kingdom, God gave them temporary slumbering eyes (set aside) (Rom. 11:7-12, 25), and set them aside just as He did the Gentiles in Genesis 11, at the Tower of Babel. "For God hath concluded them all (Jews and Gentiles) in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all (Rm. 11:32).

With the temporary setting aside of Israel, that interrupted prophetic program pertaining to Israel, and the Tribulation that began in Acts 2. They will both resume after the rapture of the Church, the Body of Christ.

The signs give at Pentecost were the only begining signs of the Tribulation. We know that the first 3 1/2 year the Tribulation will be quite mild, but the last 3 1/3 years are the Great Tribulation.

We also know that the Law was given only to Israel, and with there temporary setting aside, the Law too is non-effect today. This present dispensation of Grace is a (parenthetical) period within the dispensation of the Law.

With the rapture of the Church, the Body of Christ, God will again deal with Israel as His special/favorite people. The prophetic program pertaining to Israel, and Tribulation, will resume from the point it was interrupted. Also, Israel will again be under the Law, which will be written on their hearts at the second coming of Christ (Jer. 31:33).

Hope this is helpful.

 

[rcetc]

Hi , and here in 1 Cor 12:13 answers how all enter , BAPTIZO/PLACED INTO , the body of Christ !!

But where did Grace of God begin ??

I get Acts 13:46 , Acts 18:6 and Acts 28:28 , but where did the Body of Christ begin ??

Most Acts 28 er , do not accept the first 7 epistles that Paul wrote are to the Body of Christ !!

Acts 20:24 , Paul is talking about the ministry that he received of the Lord Jesus , to testify of the Gospel of the Grace of God !!

Where did Grace begin ??

dan p

Where did Grace begin ??

I believe you may find the answer here:

Gal 3:8-14
8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations shall be blessed in you." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. 10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them." 11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, " The righteous man shall live by faith. " 12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "He who practices them shall live by them." 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us — for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree" — 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. (NASB)

 

[rcetc]

Paul defines the church here:


Col 1:24-28

24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body (which is the church) in filling up that which is lacking in Christ's afflictions. 25 Of this church I was made a minister according to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit, that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God, 26 that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations; but has now been manifested to His saints, 27 to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. (NASB)

As you see the church is defined as the body of Christ, but more importantly it is defined as “Christ in you.” The first mention of the New Testament church is found in Matthew 16:18 when Christ pronouns he was building one. We then read in Acts 20:28 the following: 28 "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.” (NASB) With all this said we can conclude that Christ was the founder and that it started after Christ's death and ascension. How do we know this? Because Christ had to die first to redeem it, then the Scriptures states the church is “Christ in you” and how does this happen? Answer: Through the work of the Holy Spirit. And when did the Holy Spirit begin to permanently indwell the believer? At the day of Pentecost. Thus, it is my view that the church came through Jesus Christ by the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Thus, technically speaking the concept of the church was fully developed and empowered 50 days after Christ's ascension. Do I want to debate the exact moment. No. But the concept of the church is clear and what needs to take place to establish it is clear.


There are more versed that could be given to support this concept, but I wanted to keep it simple. The Church is: “Christ in you, the hope of glory.”

 

[Bro in Christ]

amen

 

[Biblewriter]

In my town, it starts at 10 AM, every Sunday. But in others, at 9 AM.

 

[msortwell]

At the risk of oversimplifying the debate, it seems that the church (ekklesia) existed before Jesus provided instruction to his disciples regarding the sinning brother . . .

Matthew 18:15-17
"Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother.
16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that 'by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.'
17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church . But if he refuses even to hear the church , let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. NKJV

Or do some believe that Jesus simply believed that any group called out to address such issues would do?

Of course, if you are of the camp that would reject the application of the gospels to the gentile church . . .

 

[Dispy]

The Church was born in the second chapter of the Book of Acts when the Holy Ghost was poured out on the 120 in the upper room.

Bro. Winter

The Church was born in the second chapter of the Book of Acts when the Holy Ghost was poured out on the 120 in the upper room.

Bro. Winter

The Church, the Body of Christ, consists of Jews and Gentiles on equal footing, without distinction, and not under the Law.

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE show me that Church in Acts 2. According to my Bible there were only Jews and proselytes there.

The Church, as described above was not in existance prior to the conversion of Saul/Paul.

 

[Dispy]

The Christian Jews were made aware that Gentiles could become Christians too when they heard them speak in other tongues.

Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Acts 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Acts 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Bro. Winter

First of all, you failed to show me the Church, the Body of Christ, in Acts 2.

How, and when, would the Jews be made aware that Gentiles could become Christians too when they heard them speak in other tongues.

Peter, in Acts 2, 16-20 is quoting Joel 2:28-32. Joel is not speaking of Pentecost, but the last days, i.e. the times of Jacob's troubles.

Acts 20 is several years after Pentecost.

 

[Dispy]

Sounds like you have such a foundation of false doctrine that you may well be beyond my help.

Sorry,

Bro. Winter

You could help me greatly if you could show me the Church, the Body of Christ, Jew and Gentile on equal footing, without distinction, and not under the Law in Acts 2.

If you can't do that, I think that you are the one that needs help. I'm willing to do that.

 

[msortwell]

Jesus was speaking to the Jews because the New Testament Church was not yet born.

Did you notice that you refuted my assertion that the church predated Christ’s instructions regarding the sinning brother with the ASSUMPTION that your position is correct?

 

[acts1339]

Dispy says:The Church, the Body of Christ, consists of Jews and Gentiles on equal footing, without distinction, and not under the Law. That church did not start until after the raising up/conversion of the Apostle Paul.

Since the Church, the Body of Christ, had been "kept secret since the world began", until revealed to Paul, it cannot be read into any Scripture prior to its being made known.

Dispy, Paul himself wrote in Romans 16:7 "Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow-prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me."

If someone was "in Christ" before Paul, then he was not the first one in or the beginning of the body of Christ. You are assuming God has to reveal something before He begins doing it. Paul plainly states that there were people "in Christ" before he was in Christ.

God was merely fulfilling his plan which he laid out before the foundation of the world. Since He planned this before the foundation of the world, I don't have a problem with God putting believers into his body BEFORE he told Paul or anyone else what He was doing. Just because God did not reveal the mystery of the body until Paul does not mean it did not exist previous to the revelation Paul received.

 

[Dispy]

Dispy says:The Church, the Body of Christ, consists of Jews and Gentiles on equal footing, without distinction, and not under the Law. That church did not start until after the raising up/conversion of the Apostle Paul.

Since the Church, the Body of Christ, had been "kept secret since the world began", until revealed to Paul, it cannot be read into any Scripture prior to its being made known.

Dispy, Paul himself wrote in Romans 16:7 "Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow-prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me."

If someone was "in Christ" before Paul, then he was not the first one in or the beginning of the body of Christ. You are assuming God has to reveal something before He begins doing it. Paul plainly states that there were people "in Christ" before he was in Christ.

God was merely fulfilling his plan which he laid out before the foundation of the world. Since He planned this before the foundation of the world, I don't have a problem with God putting believers into his body BEFORE he told Paul or anyone else what He was doing. Just because God did not reveal the mystery of the body until Paul does not mean it did not exist previous to the revelation Paul received.

I agree fully with you what Paul wrote in Rom. 16:7. However, he does not say that they were in the Body of Christ.

If what you say is true, then the "...in me first" of 1 Tim. 1:16 is inaccurate.

Being they were well know by the disciples of Jesus, they believed in Him and were true believers, just as the disciples were, and not doubt were believers prior to Paul's conversion. I do believe that they have a kingdom hope to look forward to just as the disciples of Jesus do.

If the Church, the Body of Christ was formed prior to Saul's/Paul's conversion, When was it formed?

 

[acts1339]

I agree fully with you what Paul wrote in Rom. 16:7. However, he does not say that they were in the Body of Christ.

If what you say is true, then the "...in me first" of 1 Tim. 1:16 is inaccurate.

Being they were well know by the disciples of Jesus, they believed in Him and were true believers, just as the disciples were, and not doubt were believers prior to Paul's conversion. I do believe that they have a kingdom hope to look forward to just as the disciples of Jesus do.

If the Church, the Body of Christ was formed prior to Saul's/Paul's conversion, When was it formed?

Dispy, I appreciate your reply. I do not have lots of time to do this sort of thing. I am usually just one of those who read blogs but never participate (is that a "lurker"?). So I don't know if I will have time to answer every question you may throw at me. A lot of times when people are shown scripture, they just answer, "But what about..."
I am not saying that is what you personally are doing, but we apparently see the same scripture in very different ways!

Let me go back to Romans before I reply to your "But what about" of 1 Timothy 1:16.

Romans 12:5 "So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another"
So Paul has established that the believers he is writing to are members of one body in Christ with him.

In Romans 16 Paul used these identifiers to describe those believers in the body:
16:3 "Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus
16:7 "Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
16:8 "Greet Amplias my beloved in the Lord.
16:9 "Salute Urbane, our helper in Christ
16:10 "Salute Apelles approved in Christ
16:11 "Salute Herodion my kinsman. Greet them that be of the household of Narcissus, which are in the Lord.
16:12 "Salute Tryphena and Tryphosa, who labour in the Lord. Salute the beloved Persis, which laboured much in the Lord
16:13 "Salute Rufus chosen in the Lord
16:14 "Salute Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermas, Patrobas, Hermes, and the brethrenwhich are with them
16:15 "Salute Philologus, and Julia, Nereus, and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints which are with them

Paul uses all different phraseology to describe those who are in Christ, having already established that there is only ONE BODY IN CHRIST. Paul also clearly states that some were in Christ before he (Paul) was.

Your reference to 1 Timothy 1:16 is not a clear statement about being first "in Christ." Romans 16:7 is very clear. You must explain it away in order to reconcile what you believe to what the scripture clearly says.
In 1 Timothy 1:16 you have taken "in me first" out of context. Paul is not claiming that he was the first to be in Christ. The verse is not inaccurate as you say it must be if Romans 16:7 is correct. There is no discrepancy between the two passages. Scripture cannot be broken. Both verses are true exactly as written.

You may not receive this because of your Mid-Acts view, but here goes anyway...

1 Timothy 1:16, "Howbeitfor this cause I obtained mercy..."
What was the "cause" for which Paul obtained mercy? "Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern..."

Paul was given mercy by God because Paul was to be the example for every believer on what to expect as a Christian. The "pattern" is not salvation. The pattern that was "in me (Paul) first" is a pattern of longsuffering. 2 Timothy 3:12 "Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution."

The pattern of suffering that Christ established in Paul first fits perfectly with scripture:
Acts 9:16 "For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake."
Philippians 3:10 "That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death"
Colossians "1:24 "Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

1 Timothy 1:16 does not establish a pattern of salvation for people who are going to believe; 1 Timothy 1:16 establishes the pattern for what those who believe can expect: longsuffering!

The whole verse says: "Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting."

Please excuse my poor communication skills. I hope you can at least see what I see in 1 Timothy 1:16.

There is absolutely no contradiction at all between 1 Timothy 1:16 and Romans 16:7.

God bless you.

 

[acts1339]

erc[QUOTE=Dispy;

If the Church, the Body of Christ was formed prior to Saul's/Paul's conversion, When was it formed?[/QUOTE]

I'm sorry; I missed your question entirely thinking about 1 Timothy!
Paul tells us when the church started. Ephesians 2:11-22. Made of twain one new man. The law taken out of the way. Jesus Christ the chief cornerstone. Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets. All the building fitly framed together. Of the household of God. No more strangers. Builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. Made nigh through the blood of Christ. Reconciled unto God in one body by the cross.

IN ONE BODY BY THE CROSS.

That's when the church started.

 

[Dispy]

acts1339:
Dispy, I appreciate your reply. I do not have lots of time to do this sort of thing. I am usually just one of those who read blogs but never participate (is that a "lurker"?). So I don't know if I will have time to answer every question you may throw at me. A lot of times when people are shown scripture, they just answer, "But what about..."
I am not saying that is what you personally are doing, but we apparently see the same scripture in very different ways!

Dispy:
I really do appreciate your response, and the manner in which you resonded.
---------------
acts1339:
Let me go back to Romans before I reply to your "But what about" of 1 Timothy 1:16.

Romans 12:5 "So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another"
So Paul has established that the believers he is writing to are members of one body in Christ with him.

Dispy:
I agree with you 100%.

At the time Paul penned those words, He already knew that Israel, as a nation, had been given temporary slumbering eyes (set aside) (cf Rom. 11:7-12, 25). There is no longer a distinction between the Jew and the Gentile (cf. Rm. 10:12).

However, prior to the conversion of Saul/Paul and his receiving the revelation of the mystery, there was still a "middle wall of partition" between the Jew and the Gentile, and the Law was still in effect. For one that was a Gentile and wanted to serve the true and living God of Israel, that one had to become a Jew (proselyte) and place themselves under the Civil, Moral, and Ceremonial Laws of Moses. Gentiles were considered unclean, heathen, and considered dogs, and outside the gate.

Saul/Paul was not converted until Acts 9. Peter, in Acts 10, was given a vision. In that vision God showed him that he should no longer consider one of another nation (Gentiles) common or unclean (cf. 10:28). This did not bring the Gentiles up to the status of special/favorite people of God, but put the Jews on the same level as the set aside Gentiles at the Tower of Babel in Gen. 11.
------------
acts1339:
In Romans 16 Paul used these identifiers to describe those believers in the body:
16:3 "Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus
16:7 "Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
16:8 "Greet Amplias my beloved in the Lord.
16:9 "Salute Urbane, our helper in Christ
16:10 "Salute Apelles approved in Christ
16:11 "Salute Herodion my kinsman. Greet them that be of the household of Narcissus, which are in the Lord.
16:12 "Salute Tryphena and Tryphosa, who labour in the Lord. Salute the beloved Persis, which laboured much in the Lord
16:13 "Salute Rufus chosen in the Lord
16:14 "Salute Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermas, Patrobas, Hermes, and the brethrenwhich are with them
16:15 "Salute Philologus, and Julia, Nereus, and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints which are with them

Paul uses all different phraseology to describe those who are in Christ, having already established that there is only ONE BODY IN CHRIST. Paul alsoclearly states that some were in Christ before he (Paul) was.

BigD:
I agree with you that all mentioned above were "in Christ", but not one is mentioned to be in "the Body of Christ". When they believed that Jesus was their long promised Messiah, they were "in Christ" (in the sphere). They, like the 12 will have a place in the earthly kingdom, not eternal in the heavens (2 Cor. 5:1), as members of the Church, the Body of Christ. Keep in mind that the Church, the Body of Christ, Jew and Gentile on equal footing, without distinction, and not under the Law, was not formed prior to the conversion of Saul/Paul.
------------
acts1339:
Your reference to 1 Timothy 1:16 is not a clear statement about being first "in Christ." Romans 16:7 is very clear. You must explain it away in order to reconcile what you believe to what the scripture clearly says.

BigD:
At the time of Saul's/Paul's conversion the Law was still in effect. Law ='s - Do as the Law requires or pay the penalty. Salvation by Grace alone was still not in effect. Grace ='s - Unmerited faver. Not getting what one deserves.

Paul was saved by pure GRACE. He deserved the penalty of the Law, not mercy as under Grace.

Who, prior to Paul, was saved by pure GRACE? Paul was the first. That is why he can make the statement "...in me first is this grace given.
--------------
acts1339:
In 1 Timothy 1:16 you have taken "in me first" out of context. Paul is not claiming that he was the first to be in Christ. The verse is not inaccurate as you say it must be if Romans 16:7 is correct. There is no discrepancy between the two passages. Scripture cannot be broken. Both verses are true exactly as written.

BigD:
You are correct. Paul is not claiming that he was the first to be in Christ. He is saying that he is the first one to be saved by pure Grace, "for a patter to them which should hereafter believe on Him to live everlasting".
---------------
acts1339:
You may not receive this because of your Mid-Acts view, but here goes anyway...

1 Timothy 1:16, "Howbeitfor this cause I obtained mercy..."
What was the "cause" for which Paul obtained mercy? "Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all long suffering, for a pattern..."

Paul was given mercy by God because Paul was to be the example for every believer on what to expect as a Christian. The "pattern" is not salvation. The pattern that was "in me (Paul) first" is a pattern of long suffering. 2 Timothy 3:12 "Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution."

The pattern of suffering that Christ established in Paul first fits perfectly with scripture:
Acts 9:16 "For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake."

Philippians 3:10 "That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death"
Colossians "1:24 "Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

1 Timothy 1:16 does not establish a pattern of salvation for people who are going to believe; 1 Timothy 1:16 establishes the pattern for whatthose who believe can expect: longsuffering!

The whole verse says: "Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting."

Please excuse my poor communication skills. I hope you can at least see what I see in 1 Timothy 1:16.

There is absolutely no contradiction at all between 1 Timothy 1:16 and Romans 16:7.

BigD:
There had been a pattern of "long suffering" by others prior to Paul. Don't believe he was the pattern for it. I do agree with you that all those that live godly in Christ will suffer persecution. It is still going on today. He is the pattern for all others that are saved by pure GRACE.
-----------

If the Church, the Body of Christ was formed prior to Saul's/Paul's conversion, When was it formed?

acts1339:
I'm sorry; I missed your question entirely thinking about 1 Timothy!
Paul tells us when the church started. Ephesians 2:11-22. Made of twain one new man. The law taken out of the way. Jesus Christ the chief cornerstone. Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets. All the building fitly framed together. Of the household of God. No more strangers. Builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. Made nigh through the blood of Christ. Reconciled unto God in one body by the cross.

IN ONE BODY BY THE CROSS.

BigD:
The Church, the Body of Christ is the "one new man" of Ephesians 2:15. It started with the conversion of Saul/Paul in Acts 9. Peter, in Acts 10 was show that Israel was not longer considered God's special/favorite people, but now are on the same level as the set aside Gentiles. There is no longer a distinction between the Jew and Gentile (Rm. 10:5, Gal. 3:28). One does not learn this until AFTER the conversion of Saul/Paul.

It is because of the Cross, and Israel's rejection of their King and His Kingdom, that salvation can now be offered on the basis of Christ Cross work.

Hope this is helpful.

Looking forward to you reply.

 

[acts1339]

Dispy, you say prior to fhe conversion of Paul tbe law was still in effect.

God himself tore the temple veil and opened the way into the holiest. Paul even says the law was taken out of the way because it was nailed to the cross.
Grace came by Jesus Christ.
I believe God started salvation by grace alone at the cross. He does not have to tell anyone what he is doing before he is allowed to do it.
You believe God did not start his grace program until he told Paul.
In Galatians Paul's testimony includes the admission along the lines of "he now preaches the faith which once he destroyed". My quote is not exact, but I'm sure you know where to find it.
I believe you are reading something into scripture that is not there and you probably believe I cannot see the truth of Acts 9.
I believe Paul was saved on the basis of the finished work of Christ. It was finished and working before Paul was saved.
God bless.

 

[Dispy]

Dispy, you say prior to fhe conversion of Paul tbe law was still in effect.

God himself tore the temple veil and opened the way into the holiest. Paul even says the law was taken out of the way because it was nailed to the cross.
Grace came by Jesus Christ.
I believe God started salvation by grace alone at the cross. He does not have to tell anyone what he is doing before he is allowed to do it.
You believe God did not start his grace program until he told Paul.
In Galatians Paul's testimony includes the admission along the lines of "he now preaches the faith which once he destroyed". My quote is not exact, but I'm sure you know where to find it.
I believe you are reading something into scripture that is not there and you probably believe I cannot see the truth of Acts 9.
I believe Paul was saved on the basis of the finished work of Christ. It was finished and working before Paul was saved.
God bless.

THANKS for you rapid response.

Yes, the veil in the temple was torn at the crucifiction of Christ. I cannot find anywhere in my Bible as to why it was torn. My Bible just confirms that it was.

Halley's Bible commentary calls the area behind the curtain as "The Throne Room of God." I do believe that God's presence was in there. But, once the curtain was torn, all we know is that God no longer dwelt there. The Bible doesn't give me a clue as to any other reason.

Paul was not saved until at least 1 year after Pentecost (Acts 9). Peter in Acts 10 still didn't know the Law was no longer in effect because when God told him to eat the unclean items on the sheet, Peter replied that he would not eat anything that was common or unclean (Acts 10:9-16). That tells me that Peter did not know anything about the Law not being in effect. He was still observing the Law.

I know what you believe, as to when Grace began, but you cannot back that up from any Scripture. The Law preceded Grace.

Since the fall of man, salvation/justification was always based upon FAITH. FAITH in believing/doing what God required at that point in time of human history. Salvation/justification today is based sole on FAITH alone in the Cross work (death, burial, and resurrection - 1 Cor. 15:1-4) of Christ.

When I studied the Bible I found that from Abram in Genesis 12, through Acts 7, all between that period pertained to the nation Israel. From Moses Israel was under the Law. Jesus came only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (cf. Matt. 15:24), to confirm the promises made to the Jewish fathers (cf. Rom. 15:8).

It was only when God gave Israel temporary slumbering eyes (Rom. 11:7-12, 25) that God created the "one new man", i.e. "the Body of Christ" which consists of Jew and Gentile on equal footing, without distinction, and not under the Law.

All the saved prior to the dispensation of Grace being ushered in, by Paul, have an earthly kingdom to look forward to. All those saved under the preaching of "the gospel of the Grace of God, which was kept secret since the world began (Rom.16:25), have an eternal heavenly home to look forward to (cf. 2 Cor. 5:1, Phil. 3:20).

 

[acts1339]

THANKS for you rapid response.

Yes, the veil in the temple was torn at the crucifiction of Christ. I cannot find anywhere in my Bible as to why it was torn. My Bible just confirms that it was.

Halley's Bible commentary calls the area behind the curtain as "The Throne Room of God." I do believe that God's presence was in there. But, once the curtain was torn, all we know is that God no longer dwelt there. The Bible doesn't give me a clue as to any other reason.

Dispy,
I have talked to some others who hold to your dispensational teaching and they do not recognize, believe, or acknowledge types and shadows in scripture. If you hold the same position, then the veil has no meaning or significance to you, nor will the fact that the veil was torn mean a thing to you. If you hold that position, the temple itself will have no spiritual significance to you other than being a Jewish place of worship under the law.

You say you cannot find anywhere in your Bible as to why the veil was torn? The scriptures are there and the teaching is in the Bible if you will receive it. It answers the question of when the law was taken out of the way and pure grace began.

We're pretty much at an impasse if you see no significance in the rending of the temple veil when Jesus Christ the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world was crucified.

Thanks for the conversation and God bless.