When does it become "treason"?

[Bobber]

This issue is different however in one very important respect. Even with all that political bickering in DC, in each and every case, the transfer of power has always been done peacefully and willingly, with respect for the constitution and the actual "will of the people"

The "will of the people" has spoken and the fat lady has sung, all the way through the court system.

Do you really understand American history? Federal elections have been contested a great many times once it got to the Congress and Senate.
1796,
1800,
1808,
1812,
1820,
1836,
1856---1868---1876---1960---1968 and the year 2000. Not to mention the Dem's tried to do it in 2016 but didn't have the votes.

 

[disciple Clint]

Multiple senators are planning to object to certifying the 2020 presidential election



The various States have already certified all of their election results on a state by state basis. The Justice Department has weighed in and the courts have already tossed out the various frivolous lawsuits that were filed due to a lack of supporting evidence of wide spread voter fraud as alleged. No such evidence has been presented. The presenting of the electoral college results to Congress has always been a mere formality, particularly when the results are so heavily skewed in one candidate's favor.

Every congressman and senator swears an oath to uphold and protect our constitution and obey the laws of our Republic. Yet here we see Republican congressman and senators willing to essentially commit treason in an attempt to overthrow the lawfully elected new leader of this country. This isn't an issue related to a single state. It's an attempted federal takeover of all American civil liberties, including the right to elect our own leaders.

Trump lost this election. Not only did he lose the popular vote by over 7 million votes, he lost the electoral college vote too by a *wide* (as wide as the last one) margin. Even the results of a single state will not and do not change the electoral college results.

When Trump won the electoral college by the same margin, he called it a "massive landslide victory" even though he lost the popular vote then as well. Now however, Trump and his supporters are attempting to overthrow the results of the same legally certified "massive landslide victory", in spite of the fact that Biden won the various battleground states by a *much* wider margin than Trump did in the previous election!

IMO, we've now left the realm of Trump and the Republicans just being "poor sports" and "sore losers" and whiners, and we've entered the realm of blatant treason IMO. This kind of careless and reckless action by the Republicans threatens the very heart of our Republic, specifically the right to elect our own leaders!

Trump and his followers already had their chance in court to present their case and they *failed* and failed miserably. Not a single judge in our entire nation agree with any of the lawsuits. Failing to accept the results of the states is simply unacceptable, it's a breach of trust, a conflict of interest, and flat out treason IMO.

You need to look into the laws because not only is what they are doing legal, it has been done before, and you might even say it is their duty to object when they feel that an election has not been conducted properly.

 

[disciple Clint]

I am thinking that we need to check our local high school curriculum and ensure that Civics is part of the required classes for graduation.

 

[Michael]

You need to look into the laws because not only is what they are doing legal, it has been done before, and you might even say it is their duty to object when they feel that an election has not been conducted properly.

No, it's not their 'duty' to call for violent protests and to try to overturn the results of the electoral college. Biden won the battleground states by a *much* wider margin than Trump won them in 2016, yet you didn't see the Democrats try to overturn the results of that election when the results were presented to congress.

Rep. Gohmert Calls for Street Violence as MAGA World Spirals

 

[Petros2015]

the Dem's tried to do it in 2016 but didn't have the votes.

True - this is how it played out last time; I didn't realize that

‘It Is Over’: Democrats’ Efforts to Deny Trump Presidency Fail (Published 2017)

One by one, the Democratic lawmakers stepped to the microphone on Friday, holding on to their letters and an impossible dream: denying the presidency to Donald J. Trump, two weeks before his inauguration.

And one by one, Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr. — presiding over a joint session of Congress to validate the Electoral College results in Mr. Trump’s victory — turned back their challenges with a stoic message, pounding his gavel without hesitation.

“It is over,” Mr. Biden said at one point, as Republicans rose to their feet to cheer.

Though I don't recall Hillary calling for StopTheSteal protests in DC...
What I recall is a concession election night when she realized that DT had gathered more electoral college votes than her.

The video recap of the proceedings is interesting; I hope Mr. Pence conducts himself with equal dignity and firmness against this nonsense. I suspect he will.

Video: Congress Certifies the Electoral College Vote

This is how democracy works.

 

[Michael]

True - this is how it played out last time; I didn't realize that

‘It Is Over’: Democrats’ Efforts to Deny Trump Presidency Fail (Published 2017)

One by one, the Democratic lawmakers stepped to the microphone on Friday, holding on to their letters and an impossible dream: denying the presidency to Donald J. Trump, two weeks before his inauguration.

And one by one, Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr. — presiding over a joint session of Congress to validate the Electoral College results in Mr. Trump’s victory — turned back their challenges with a stoic message, pounding his gavel without hesitation.

“It is over,” Mr. Biden said at one point, as Republicans rose to their feet to cheer.

Though I don't recall Hillary calling for StopTheSteal protests in DC...
What I recall is a concession election night when she realized that DT had gathered more electoral college votes than her.

The video recap of the proceedings is interesting; I hope Mr. Pence conducts himself with equal dignity and firmness against this nonsense. I suspect he will.

Video: Congress Certifies the Electoral College Vote

This is how democracy works.

And no senator supported the move.

 

[Petros2015]

I always liked C.S Lewis's Perelandra - a retelling of the story of the temptation of Eve in the Garden of Eden taking place on Venus.

Ransom, the hero of the story argues point vs counter-point against Weston, the Un-Man whose dead body has been possessed by Evil with Eve (the Green Lady) caught in the middle. This goes on for days and days...

But of course the hours spent alone with the Un-man were like hours in a back area. The real business of life was the interminable conversation between the Tempter and the Green Lady. Taken hour by hour the progress was hard to estimate; but as the days passed Ransom could not resist the conviction that the general development was in the enemy's favour. There were, of course, ups and downs. Often the Un-man was unexpectedly repulsed by some simplicity which it seemed not to have anticipated. Often, too, Ransom's own contributions to the terrible debate were for the moment successful. There were times when he thought, "Thank God! We've won at last." But the enemy was never tired, and Ransom grew more weary all the time; and presently he thought he could see signs that the Lady was becoming tired too. In the end he taxed her with it and begged her to send them both away. But she rebuked him, and her rebuke revealed how dangerous the situation had already become. "Shall I go and rest and play," she asked, "while all this lies on our hands? Not till I am certain that there is no great deed to be done by me for the King and for the children of our children."

...

At the same time he also perceived that his voluble self had begged the question. Up to this point the Lady had repelled her assailant. She was shaken and weary, and there were some stains perhaps in her imagination, but she had stood. In that respect the story already differed from anything that he certainly knew about the mother of our own race. He did not know whether Eve had resisted at all, or if so, for how long. Still less did he know how the story would have ended if she had. If the "serpent" had been foiled, and returned the next day, and the next . . . what then? Would the trial have lasted for ever? How would Maleldil have stopped it? Here on Perelandra his own intuition had been not that no temptation must occur but that "This can't go on." This stopping of a third-degree solicitation, already more than once refused, was a problem to which the terrestrial Fall offered no clue--a new task, and for that new task a new character in the drama, who appeared (most unfortunately) to be himself. In vain did his mind hark back, time after time, to the Book of Genesis, asking "What would have happened?" But to this the Darkness gave him no answer. Patiently and inexorably it brought him back to the here and the now, and to the growing certainty of what was here and now demanded. Almost he felt that the words "would have happened" were meaningless--mere invitations to wander in what the Lady would have called an "alongside world" which had no reality. Only the actual was real: and every actual situation was new. Here in Perelandra the temptation would be stopped by Ransom, or it would not be stopped at all. The Voice--for it was almost with a Voice that he was now contending--seemed to create around this alternative an infinite vacancy. This chapter, this page, this very sentence, in the cosmic story was utterly and eternally itself; no other passage that had occurred or ever would occur could be substituted for it.

Finally, Ransom solves the problem.

Perelandra, by C. S. Lewis

We too, have a "Green Lady"

 

[Ironhold]

You need to look into the laws because not only is what they are doing legal, it has been done before, and you might even say it is their duty to object when they feel that an election has not been conducted properly.

From what I understand, officials in Pennsylvania found a discrepancy of over 100,000 votes between what the state's automated counting system logged and what the manual counters logged.

Even if it's a simple case of human error causing votes to be logged twice or the machine not getting everyone's vote, that's still something big enough not to ignore.

 

[Albion]

Multiple senators are planning to object to certifying the 2020 presidential election...

IMO, we've now left the realm of Trump and the Republicans just being "poor sports" and "sore losers" and whiners, and we've entered the realm of blatant treason IMO. This kind of careless and reckless action by the Republicans threatens the very heart of our Republic, specifically the right to elect our own leaders!

The Democrats did the same thing following the election of George W. Bush, so what is being made to seem so sensational now is actually much ado about nothing.

 

[wing2000]

The Democrats did the same thing following the election of George W. Bush, so what is being made to seem so sensational now is actually much ado about nothing.

As I recall, the Democrats honored the USSC decision. Do you have evidence to the contrary?

 

[MIDutch]

You seem to have ignored the fact that the Democrat party did virtually everything you are accusing Trump of for four years trying to have Trump thrown out of office. Where was their "maturity,""wisdom,""common sense," and "'class' to simply extend their welcome to the next President and be done?"
As I said it depends on whose ox got gored. The Democrats spent 4 years, 100s of hour of useless investigation and millions of dollars trying to throw Trump out of office. Where was all this unity then?

You seem to be forgetting that there was plenty of evidence that trump and his associates welcomed any and all Russian help in winning the 2016 election. Was it conscientious collusion on trump's part? Probably not since his defense was that his administration was to incompetent (read stupid) to actually collude with the Russians, but the evidence says that he won because of Russian interference.

 

[wing2000]

Do you really understand American history? Federal elections have been contested a great many times once it got to the Congress and Senate.
1796,
1800,
1808,
1812,
1820,
1836,
1856---1868---1876---1960---1968 and the year 2000. Not to mention the Dem's tried to do it in 2016 but didn't have the votes.

Bobber: What did the Dem's try to do in 2016? Specifically.

 

[Albion]

As I recall, the Democrats honored the USSC decision. Do you have evidence to the contrary?

It's not the Court's decision in Bush v. Gore that I was referring to.

 

[wing2000]

It's not the Court's decision in Bush v. Gore that I was referring to.

What are you referring to?

 

[Albion]

Bobber: What did the Dem's try to do in 2016? Specifically.

It's a little bit off the subject of the Senate challenging the Electoral College results, but in 2016, three state-wide recounts were financed by the Democrats and the losing candidate of that Party maintained, throughout the term of the winner, that he was an "illegitimate" president.

 

[wing2000]

It's a little bit off the subject of the Senate challenging the Electoral College results, but in 2016, three state-wide recounts were financed by the Democrats and the losing candidate of that Party maintained, throughout the term of the winner, that he was an "illegitimate" president.

Yes, it is a different scenario entirely.

If people are going to invoke historical comparisons, let's have the details.

 

[Albion]

The details are that what you were going on about earlier is the same thing as some Congressional Democrats did after one of George W. Bush's election victories. And, in addition, the Party also sponsored recounts, the party's nominee called the winner "illegitimate," various opponents of Trump attempted to sabotage the Electoral College, and just about everything that Biden people are ranting about at present.

 

[Bobber]

Bobber: What did the Dem's try to do in 2016? Specifically.

House Democrats fail to muster support to challenge Trump’s Electoral College win

 

[jayem]

The details are that what you were going on about earlier is the same thing as the Democrats did after one of George W. Bush's election victories. And, in addition, they also sponsored recounts, called the winner "illegitimate," attempted to sabotage the Electoral College, and just about everything that Biden people are ranting about at present.

The tu quoque argument. But if you believe it was wrong for Democrats to challenge the EV counts, isn’t it equally wrong for Republicans to do the same?

Though it’s churlish and feckless trying to reverse state-certified EV results, the law allows members of Congress to object during the counting. As long as the law is followed, the losing party has that right. But we both know it won’t change the outcome. And it’s really just a publicity stunt by some Republicans who are sucking up to the hard-core Trump base. (Josh Hawley, who I’m embarrassed to say is one of my Senators, has Presidential ambitions. He wants his name out there to get these votes.)

Donald Trump’s day of reckoning is coming. After Jan. 20, he’s a private citizen with no immunity. There’s no doubt that he’ll be facing several civil suits (not likely to get anywhere.) And also a potentially serious New York state investigation into possibly criminal business and tax practices. The $200+ million he collected from his supporters to challenge the election returns will come in handy.

Sorry for going off topic.

 

[Albion]

But if you believe it was wrong for Democrats to challenge the EV counts, isn’t it equally wrong for Republicans to do the same?

Because the claim was first made here against the Republicans as if the action was unprecedented or unthinkable, the facts are the opposite of what you are saying (above).

I was pointing out that if it is wrong of the Republicans to do what probably will happen next week, then it was wrong of the Democrats to start it a few elections back.